news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[poki]

Idk if this was posted already but here's Madonna's response.

TW: her tweet includes a video.

 

Spoiler

 

 

[awesomepossum]

1 hour ago, Gaia said:

I want to learn more about this conflicts history and try and form an objective opinion but the absolute nasty behavior shown by the Pro-Palestinian side in the past week makes me not want to support that side. So quick to jump down anyone’s throat who doesn’t claim to be pro-Palestinian doesn’t help your cause and won’t make anyone see your point of view. 

You want to learn about this conflict, because you don't know anything about it, but are still drawing a conclusion about the reasonableness or unreasonableness of the pro-Palestinian position based on your own ignorance? I don't know if you are able to understand this, but real people are really being killed, maimed, displaced, harrassed, demeaned, occupied. This 'conflict' is a real issue with real life and death consequences for real people. You think you're taking some kind of moral high ground by 1) refusing to educate yourself and 2) dismissing the lives and rights and suffering of real human beings because of some Tweets or ATRL posts you saw online??? Babe, you have no moral compass to speak of.

Edited October 10, 2023 by awesomepossum

[Shelter]

Are people here really saying they ain’t terrorists? If they are really beheading people, that’s some ISIS **** and not human. The fact that I see people celebrating this is vile. 
 

Did Hamas have to go about it like this? The answer is no. They obviously enjoy it, so it makes them sick people. 

 

[Capris Groove]

17 minutes ago, CoolNebraskaGuy said:

The need to paint anyone who sympathizes with the plight of the Palestinians as supporters of Hamas is idiotic at best

I'm glad you pointed this out. Yes it's infantilising that one should have to make a disclaimer that they don't condone the murder, rape, and desecreation of civilians before they can make their broader geopolitical argument. We all agree about that death is horrific.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Capris Groove

[poki]

CNN states Reuters stated that Israel was misled for months about this attack. I missed the section where they talked about this but I assume this is related to Egypt's attempt to inform Israel in advance.

 

Graphic footage shown on CNN. 

[awesomepossum]

Explain this to me: If Israel does not have Gaza under siege, how did they acquire the capability to cut off Gaza's water, food, and electricity as they are doing now?

[Communion]

53 minutes ago, Capris Groove said:

So when I see stuff like "Palestine shouldn’t have to share any land with what nowadays is Israel"... there are 10 million Jews in Israel now, most of whom were born there. If Palestine shouldn't share land with them, what should those people do? 

"Are you suggesting Israelis just LEAVE???" reads like an empty attempt to pivot from reality when the only expelling force within the region has been Israel for over 60 years now, explicitly in the name of reaching a 100% ethnically Jewish state.

 

The actual questions that demand answers are:

• When will Israel return the land that even the 1948 partition plan said should always be Palestinians' yet which Israel continues to build settlements on today?
• If Palestinians are not entitled to the right of return, when does Israel become a secular, democratic state (since it's currently not one and can't be under Zionism) and end the Jewish right of return to acknowledge it simply does not have unlimited room to keep expanding? And if the Jewish right of return is key to Israel, how can then the same right be denied to the Palestinian diaspora?

If Israel chooses to remain an ethno-state and cling to the specter of Zionism, why wouldn't left-wing Palestinians instead continue on in the goal of a democratic, secular one-state solution as proposed by the PLO? What has Israel done to try and convince the Palestinian people that it'll be easier to reform Zionism than reform the Islamic militants of Hamas?

Edited October 10, 2023 by Communion

[CoolNebraskaGuy]

7 minutes ago, Shelter said:

Are people here really saying they ain’t terrorists? If they are really beheading people, that’s some ISIS **** and not human. The fact that I see people celebrating this is vile. 
 

Did Hamas have to go about it like this? The answer is no. They obviously enjoy it, so it makes them sick people. 

 

Who is saying that Hamas isn't a terrorist organization? Point me in their direction. 

[Glam]

23 minutes ago, Communion said:

The Israeli regime is funded by the world's biggest state sponsor of global Islamic terrorism and the creator of the war on terror that killed over 3M people and displaced tens of millions in the same region this conflict is unfolding - its friend America. Maybe that would illuminate to you why so many have little trust or faith in Israel ending its apartheid regime when its enabled by the same global power that has caused more death in the region than anyone else in over multiple centuries.

 

Please end these silly, childlike arguments that are insulting to both sides. Palestinians' right to live is not dependent on your personal grievances. 

Okay I admit the comparisons were messy. I was just pointing out how I know who can't possibly be the good guys by affiliation. I understand that as a communist (safely living in Capitalism) you think they are the good guys but that's not the point of this thread, it's true.

 

Either way that doesn't change the fact that Hamas is blood thirsty and should be stopped. That doesn't mean I think all bets are off and that Israel can nuke Gaza and get away with it. But something must be done about it and the "calls for peace" are naive and with terrible timing. It's too convenient that these calls for peace are only a thing now that Israel is going to launch an invasion on Gaza. The same people that were silent a few days ago or somehow justifying the actions of Hamas.

[LookinAssHittas]

18 minutes ago, Capris Groove said:

What does this actually mean to you? I'm asking genuinely what this means to you practically - where do 10 million Israelis go?

 

The Palestinians need a state and they're not going to get one by demanding Israel stop existing. The only road to a one-state solution where neither group exercises supremacy over the other is through two states, one Jewish, one Arab Palestinian, that over decades form something like the EU and eventually merge into a single polity. It would take a lot of time and Herculean levels of trust-building to get there.

The 10 million Israelis don’t have to go anywhere.

 

The only just solution to this conflict is a one-state solution where every citizen, Jew or Arab, has equal rights. This will never happen though, because the mission statement of Zionism and the State of Israel is “maximum Jews on maximum land with minimum Palestinians” (a quote by the “liberal” former Israeli PM Yair Lapid).

Edited October 10, 2023 by LookinAssHittas

[awesomepossum]

Also want to mention that the entire point of the BDS movement has been to avoid this scenario. For all those saying that the Palestinians should take a democratic, peaceful, non-violent approach: that's literally what BDS is. A non-violent movement to pressure Israel into recognizing Palestinians' human rights, and to pressure Israel's allies to stop funding Israel until Israel commits to upholding human rights. So the pro-Israel crowd must support BDS then, right? Of course not, they just smear BDS as 'antisemitic' to avoid addressing or acknowledging Israel's many human rights abuses, war crimes, and ongoing illegal occupation. So what are Palestinians supposed to do?? Tell me. Because if you oppose the non-violent, democratic, peaceful approach that is BDS, I don't know what you are expecting, honestly. Are you expecting Palestinians to just curl up and die?

Edited October 10, 2023 by awesomepossum

[FlyPirate]

4 minutes ago, Shelter said:

Are people here really saying they ain’t terrorists? If they are really beheading people, that’s some ISIS **** and not human. The fact that I see people celebrating this is vile. 
 

Did Hamas have to go about it like this? The answer is no. They obviously enjoy it, so it makes them sick people. 

 

do you know that Israel knew this was planned? At least by Egypt Intelligence reports. I mean the Zionist state of Israel is a direct accomplice from the very beginning (apartheid, occupation, war crimes, funding Hamas…) but they also ignored the warnings of their people being put in danger. Either their security and intelligence is not as good as they thought/want the world to believe or they simply don’t care about such consequences. In fact it seems they have now the perfect excuse to annihilate Gaza.

[BlueTimberwolf]

3 hours ago, Miss Show Business said:

https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/hamas-kills-40-babies-and-children-beheading-some-of-them-at-israeli-kibbutz-report/

 

Scum of the Earth. This is so disgusting... This is why some of y'all need to tread carefully when discussing Palestine... We should be able to agree to a free Palestine, while at the same time, condemning these terrorists.

This has not been verified by any independent source, and is starting too look like pure propaganda. 

[dumbsparce]

Just a few days ago I was partying with my 2 Israeli and 1 Palestinian friend.. it's insane how we were exiting the club and the first thing we saw on our socials was this. Hopefully the attacks stop soon without any interference from Russia or the US. We're all doomed once the superpowers come into the picture.

[Shelter]

1 minute ago, FlyPirate said:

do you know that Israel knew this was planned? At least by Egypt Intelligence reports. I mean the Zionist state of Israel is a direct accomplice from the very beginning (apartheid, occupation, war crimes, funding Hamas…) but they also ignored the warnings of their people being put in danger. Either their security and intelligence is not as good as they thought/want the world to believe or they simply don’t care about such consequences. In fact it seems they have now the perfect excuse to annihilate Gaza.

Yes I know. I think I said it in another post. There is no way they got through so easily. They let it happen so they can destroy Palestine. My post wasn’t picking sides. 

[Glam]

1 hour ago, FlyPirate said:

Please do some research and stop comparing any of those regimes/conflicts with each other or Israel/Palestine. 

I don't think it's too far fetched to dislike Hamas because they are allied with other criminal organizations. Though I agree it's not the subject of this thread.

 

I think it's funny that instead of countering my arguments, I get called a moron and that I need to do some research. Did I lie when I say that Hamas is allied with North Korea and Venezuela? Please show me where in my post I am saying something that is false and not public knowledge?

[LadyFlopga]

I don't think Shani Louk is alive... at least she did not seem so watching that video

 

FREE PALESTINE.. ugh the fact that they have been going through this for 70+ years

 

[BlueTimberwolf]

3 hours ago, awesomepossum said:

Also want to mention that the entire point of the BDS movement has been to avoid this scenario. For all those saying that the Palestinians should take a democratic, peaceful, non-violent approach: that's literally what BDS is. A non-violent movement to pressure Israel into recognizing Palestinians' human rights, and to pressure Israel's allies to stop funding Israel until Israel commits to upholding human rights. So the pro-Israel crowd must support BDS then, right? Of course not, they just smear BDS as 'antisemitic' to avoid addressing or acknowledging Israel's many human rights abuses, war crimes, and ongoing illegal occupation. So what are Palestinians supposed to do?? Tell me. Because if you oppose the non-violent, democratic, peaceful approach that is BDS, I don't know what you are expecting, honestly. Are you expecting Palestinians to just curl up and die?

They expect them to continue die and be sieged until Egypt finally has had enough and opens their border to 2 million refugees. They then will push the Palestinians out, conquer the land, and establish their state. That's the real plan that even US establishment is in on, and that the Abraham Accords are step one of.  

[LadyFlopga]

2 minutes ago, BlueTimberwolf said:

They expect them to continue die and be sieged until Egypt finally has had enough and opens their border to 2 million refugees. They then will push the Palestinians out, conquer the land, and establish their state. That's the real plan that even US establishment is in on, and that the Abraham Accords are step one of.  

Even if they succeed, they will be targeted for hundred of years to come

[awesomepossum]

3 minutes ago, BlueTimberwolf said:

They expect them to continue die and be sieged until Egypt finally has had enough and opens their border to 2 million refugees. They then will push the Palestinians out, conquer the land, and establish their state. That's the real plan that even US establishment is in on, and that the Abraham Accords are step one of.  

True. I'm sad :(

[Sergi91]

I’m glad Mexico was able to rescue them. Hopefully more people can be rescued. 

 

[Shelter]

5 minutes ago, LadyFlopga said:

I don't think Shani Louk is alive... at least she did not seem so watching that video

 

FREE PALESTINE.. ugh the fact that they have been going through this for 70+ years

 

I think they might be giving her mother false hope. 

[wastedpotential]

22 minutes ago, awesomepossum said:

Explain this to me: If Israel does not have Gaza under siege, how did they acquire the capability to cut off Gaza's water, food, and electricity as they are doing now?

Well Gaza as a territory is incredibly arid and doesn't have any natural resources to speak of to generate power. Gaza does not have the infrastructure to import food or energy from abroad and Egypt is already very food and water insecure (and I seriously doubt that any infrastructure to carry power across the border was rebuilt after the 1973 war, though I don't have that knowledge offhand), so all the food, water, and power in Gaza has come from Israel for the last few decades because it literally couldn't come from anywhere else, and (at least up to this point), the powers that be in Israel did not want to starve and dehydrate Gaza residents in the dark. Also, it's worth noting that up until the mid 2000s there were thousands of Israelis settled (and several IDF bases) in the Gaza Strip that needed food and water and power, and many of those flows had continued even beyond the Israeli withdrawal in 2005. That's not to say that this does not afford Israel immense ability to wield control over the residents of the Gaza Strip, but it probably wasn't intentionally decided in some shadowy Israeli government office to supply the residents of the Gaza Strip with water, food, and electricity resources on the off chance that they may need to cut them off as a bargaining chip. That's become the reality due to a series of other circumstances. That's also not to say that Gaza wasn't struggling with extremely limited supplies of water, food, or power before this most recent bout of violence either. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by wastedpotential

[Chiidish]

1 hour ago, State of Grace. said:

After catching up with the thread, I want to say once again that nobody wants to see innocent civilians getting killed, and I wish we didn't have to see videos of literal children (Palestinian and Israeli) being murdered like that. No one is exonerating Hamas. I thought it goes without saying, but we have to keep repeating it.

 

That being said, you really can't claim that you "want peace" and still support Israel in the same breath, or fail to see that all of what's happening now is a result of Israel's ongoing illegal occupation. If you want peace and want violence to end, you don't look at the symptoms, you address the root cause which is the decades of oppression that preceded this. Hamas exists because of Israel, not the other way around. Another important detail that many people seem to forget is that Israel literally backed and funded Hamas in the 80s as a way to combat and tackle the more secular Fatah/PLO. It was a classic divide/conquer policy in hopes that religious extremism would delegitimize the entire cause and the idea of a Palestinian state. They have obviously found value in this because Hamas = an excuse for collective punishment and retaliation.

 

Israel has turned Gaza into the largest open-air prison in the world and has subjected Palestinians there to sub-human living conditions, daily humiliation, violent series of massacres, and human rights abuses for years. The pick-and-choose approach that many users on this site like doesn't work here. There is an occupier (Israel) and an occupied land (Palestine). There is an oppressor (Israel) and an oppressed (Palestinians) side and no amount of gaslighting or defense of an apartheid regime shrouded in claims of being "against antisemitism!", "against terrorism!", or "for women and gay rights!" will ever change this fact. 

 

I'm sorry (not sorry) to burst your bubble, but you are really not more intelligent if you keep both-sidesing a conflict where only one side has the ability to cut basic life utilities and systemically starve millions, and the other side is trapped inside facing constant massacres and being used as an experimental ground for new weapons. One side is imposing an apartheid regime. Two can't. This is an inherently flawed position and being neutral is just as bad as supporting the oppressor, even if your "intentions are good" or claim that you want "peace for everyone".

 

There’s also no shortage of condemnation of Hamas by media outlets internationally, but the absolute silence about Israel's medieval tactics and the last few decades of brutality and abuse against Palestinian citizens leads to this illusion that the Hamas attacks were unprovoked.

 

Yes, innocent civilians dying is absolutely horrific. But do you know what’s even more horrific? The longest-running military occupation in history. 

 

Free Palestine, from the river to the sea. 🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸

this is ALL that needs to be said anytime and anywhere about this “conflict” 

[I54X]

On 10/9/2023 at 4:52 PM, Take Me Apart said:

Free Palestine from HAMAS

Basically