news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[Vermillion]

Netanyahu must change his government?

 

He’s the…you know what, nevermind.

 

[Uncatena]

today on "Germany is losing its ******* mind and repeating history"

 

[nooniebao]

 

[WeFoundWill]

3 hours ago, DAP said:

Oh wow

Finally a GERMAN brand is boycotting genocide!

 

very appalled at our government for still not speaking out.

Edited December 12, 2023 by WeFoundWill

[WeFoundWill]

1 hour ago, ChapelHooker said:

today on "Germany is losing its ******* mind and repeating history"

 

Im gonna throw UP

[WeFoundWill]

On 12/11/2023 at 4:36 PM, GhostBox said:

This could literally be said for the Palestinians and their support of Hamas murderous actions too 💀

Can you stop being DUMB? 

[Kassi]

13 hours ago, teresaguidice said:

israel is not a fledgling cornered country on the brink of collapse, but a country that's secure in its standing and future would not feel obligated to spend billions every year on lobbying and advertising specifically about its right to exist to the american and european public in op-eds, on billboards, and social media ads. no other country on earth does this. if israel in its current state became toxic for western politicians to publicly support, israel's situation would become precarious. "but that would never happen" probably not, but seems quite logical for activists to do their best to push for that outcome. 

Whatever outcome activists are pushing for, they’ll need to update their “decolonization” playbook to account for a very important detail they continue to neglect:

 

 

 

[futurenostalgic]

 

 

[Communion]

18 hours ago, Kassi said:

Israel, a sovereign nuclear power with a civilian military population and a GDP per capita higher than Germany, France, or Britain, is not going anywhere

Then it seems they'll just have to live with experiencing 10/07 over and over and over. 

 

This is why it is ironic when Biden says nonsense like "the world's Jews would not be safe if there were no Israel". 

 

The average Jewish American lives an exponentially safer life than that of your average Israeli citizen. Israel's commitment to violence only further begets violence.

 

Your average Jewish person lives an urbanist, cosmopolitan life in any average North American or European city. And in plenty of cities outside of the "Western" world, as well.

 

This idea that Israelis have that they can also have what their peers abroad do in this metropolitan, privileged capitalist lifestyle while mass suffocating Palestinians is a delusion. A delusion no other country can force them away from, but the mass rivers of blood and death on both sides of the border wall will be the reality they chain themselves to by deciding this is the path they want.

 

This is why constant posts by users like @wastedpotential that really say nothing besides "WELL THE CHANCE PALESTINIANS DON'T GET OBLITERATED ARE LIKELY NONE SO WHY NOT JUST CONCEDE WE SHOULD FORCE THEM TO GIVE UP?" don't move anyone. If I'm expected to not begrudge Israeli society for rushing towards collective sociopathy, no different then say....Russia, then I also can't be bothered to feign outrage and push for intervention over Palestinians choosing mutual destruction.

 

"Israel won't stop until every last Palestinian is dead" is not convincing to 3rd-party observers that then what we must do is everything possible to stop Palestinians from wanting to see Israel burn to the ground. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Communion

[Mean Trees]

GDP is such a crappy indicator of economy anyway, K*ssi. It includes non-productive sectors like Banking and Finance. Economic parasitism is rewarded under that measure. The Net Material Product is much more superior

[wastedpotential]

58 minutes ago, Communion said:

This is why constant posts by users like @wastedpotential that really say nothing besides "WELL THE CHANCE PALESTINIANS DON'T GET OBLITERATED ARE LIKELY NONE SO WHY NOT JUST CONCEDE WE SHOULD FORCE THEM TO GIVE UP?" don't move anyone. If I'm expected to not begrudge Israeli society for rushing towards collective sociopathy, no different then say....Russia, then I also can't be bothered to feign outrage and push for intervention over Palestinians choosing mutual destruction.

 

"Israel won't stop until every last Palestinian is dead" is not convincing to 3rd-party observers that then what we must do is everything possible to stop Palestinians from wanting to see Israel burn to the ground. 

There's nothing mutual about the destruction so far. Israel is killing the residents of Gaza at, as has been reported in this thread, an unprecedented rate for war in the 21st century. Right now, the remainder of the population is crowded into the southern half of Gaza because the IDF has rendered the northern half unlivable by destroying as much of the civilian infrastructure as they can manage, and that same process has begun to occur in southern Gaza as well. I've seen some estimates that Gaza is less than a month from a mass famine, and that cholera is on track to take as many lives as the bombs or the starvation. In return, Hamas has managed 10/7, one suicide bombing in Jerusalem, and to send over a few thousand rockets. The rocket attacks can probably continue for a while, and we might see a suicide bombing every few months, but it's not as if Hamas fighters will be able to sneak over the border when there are IDF tanks rolling the other way, and will continue to be for at least the next few months, by which time the Israeli missiles and ground operations and the famine and the diseases will have killed tens of thousands more and destroyed the physical fitness of any fighting force Hamas might still have. Hezbollah leadership has decided not to get involved, and the Houthi's haven't yet managed more than to hit an empty patch of desert a few miles from Eilat. It should be obvious to all observers that Palestine has a right to retaliation, but it should also be obvious to all that Palestine (and its allies) lack the capability.

 

It's been put more eloquently and elaborated on much further by other users here, but I believe that the only outcome that does not result in the entire population of Gaza being shoved up against the Egyptian border and then metaphorically gunned down by the IDF so that their homes can be turned into beach resorts is some form of peace settlement. It will be very costly for the Palestinians, but even those who have no interest in a second Nakba would probably prefer it to total extinction. However, the vast majority of discourse on the matter (such as from yourself) calls for retribution without considering any of the mechanics of what that would look like or the odds of its success. Palestinian retribution is deserved and would be damning in a fair world, but it hasn't happened yet, and given that the fighting capabilities of the residents of Gaza decrease with every death, I doubt it ever will. From this point forward, every individual Israeli killed will come at the expense of thousands of Palestinians, and those numbers don't support any sort of successful retribution. You can find my posts to be made in bad faith or argumentatively ineffective all you want, but you've yet to actually engage with what I've been saying or refute any of my arguments. 

 

On that note, you still haven't answered my question about how you'd propose the dismantling of the Israeli state and the re-education of the population in the case that any Palestinians survive this conflict and are crowned as victors. The only political actors who might want to in the only country with the theoretical capability to do so are being shoved out by AIPAC, the Israeli population seems to have a great deal of support for this conflict, and the Palestinians are too busy getting slaughtered to mount any political change in Israel. In your ideal outcome, how do you reconcile that? 

[Communion]

55 minutes ago, wastedpotential said:

There's nothing mutual about the destruction so far.

This is both revisionist and disingenuous. If people demand Hamas be seen as doing something undeniably monstrous, the scale of what occurred on 10/07 has to be acknowledged in all aspects, including the suffering Israel chooses to experience by perpetuating this cycle of violence.

 

It can't be that 10/07 was so harrowing that the world can't stop Israel from its pursuit to destroy Hamas... but *also* that the threat of what 10/07 represents against Israel is somehow nothing~* and Israel is actually totally~* unfazed by Hamas and only Palestinians have something to lose. The line of "well Hamas will achieve nothing against Israel, Israel is 10000x stronger!!!" doesn't come off as being against Israel. It reads very pro-Israel.

 

No matter how one feels, Hamas was undeniably successful on 10/07 in shattering any false sense of safety Israelis felt laying their head down at night. Any sense of security the Israeli state apparatus had in being a ~blooming oasis amongst a barren desert~ is gone. No carpet bombing will ever give Zionists that back.

 

Israel disproportionately rains death down upon Palestine both *after* and *before* 10/07 - the change now is that it's not just Palestinians forced to accept the constant fear of violence and death as a permanent fixture. This is not to romanticize violence. In fact, it's to de-romanticize it.

 

To recognize that there is no actual easy, feel-good solution to these horrors (that often neolibs+neocons accuse leftists of wishcasting). It's why I'm not going to sit here and entertain the *insane* idea that I, a random homosexual American graphic designer, could even possibly have some meaningful solution to "propose" (!) re: an ongoing genocide. I can only accept that the Palestinian people have the right to lead their destiny.

 

To recognize all I can do is be an observer, and maybe a vocal activist in a very limited capacity as a citizen of the nation financing the genocidal colony (only money talks in America and I already live in a district where the Democrat is one of the rare ones to support a ceasefire).

 

To actually remove the sensationalism surrounding the shock and horror of death, by recognizing death is part of this situation no matter how much it makes me uncomfortable to 'see'. That such death and violence *has always been* part of the Palestinian reality for as long as Israel has existed. And to listen to Palestinians when they say that those who somehow only began paying attention after 10/07 - and who rush to convince the Palestinian people to accept living under Israel's boot and lay down their weapons - don't have much care for them after all.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Communion

[ClashAndBurn]

Joe Biden is directly responsible for an even worse atrocity than George Bush’s Abu Ghraib.

 

 

Don’t even think Trump’s atrocities compare at this point. Absolutely unconscionable that this piece of **** could even be considered a lesser evil.

[nooniebao]

 

[wastedpotential]

31 minutes ago, Communion said:

This is both revisionist and disingenuous. If people demand Hamas be seen as doing something undeniably monstrous, the scale of what occurred on 10/07 has to be acknowledged in all aspects, including the suffering Israel chooses to experience by perpetuating this cycle of violence.

 

It can't be that 10/07 was so harrowing that the world can't stop Israel from its pursuit to destroy Hamas... but *also* that the threat of what 10/07 represents against Israel is somehow nothing~* and Israel is actually totally~* unfazed by Hamas and only Palestinians have something to lose. The line of "well Hamas will achieve nothing against Israel, Israel is 10000x stronger!!!" doesn't come off as being against Israel. It reads very pro-Israel.

 

No matter how one feels, Hamas was undeniably successful on 10/07 in shattering any false sense of safety Israelis felt laying their head down at night. Any sense of security the Israeli state apparatus had in being a ~blooming oasis amongst a barren desert~ is gone. No carpet bombing will ever give Zionists that back.

 

Israel disproportionately rains death down upon Palestine both *after* and *before* 10/07 - the change now is that it's not just Palestinians forced to accept the constant fear of violence and death as a permanent fixture. This is not to romanticize violence. In fact, it's to de-romanticize it.

It's certainly true that 10/7 changed the dynamic of violence of this conflict by shattering the Israeli security illusion, but it also provided Israel with the internal (if not the international) justification required to eradicate Hamas (and by extension the Palestinians). Before 10/7, Israel was averaging a few hundred to a few thousand killed Palestinians per year. On 10/7, Hamas killed ~1200 Israelis, and in return Israel killed 1000 Hamas militants. In the two months since, Israel has killed about 18,000 with all indicators pointing to the rate of death dramatically increasing over the next few months due to famine and disease, while Hamas has managed to kill about 180 Israelis. Hamas "won" the battle on 10/7 by destroying Israel's image, but a 180/18000 kill ratio does not make it look like they'll "win" the war. The circumstances that allowed for Hamas to pull off 10/7 (a distracted and placated Israel, exploitable border defenses, years of preparation, etc.) are not replicable, and the IDF is well aware given their complete nonchalance regarding the potential radicalization of the remaining Palestinians. The plan is to kill them all before they can mount another 10/7, so why bother worrying about that while that plan is succeeding? Does it matter if the general Israeli or global population lives in fear of another 10/7 when the men in charge of preventing attacks clearly aren't living in fear?

 

Also, I'm sorry you aren't reading what I'm saying in the way that I'm intending, but pointing out the basic facts on the ground does not make me pro-Israel. I can detest the regime and its actions and still recognize that they're on an unstoppable trajectory.

 

51 minutes ago, Communion said:

To recognize that there is no actual easy, feel-good solution to these horrors (that often neolibs+neocons accuse leftists of wishcasting). It's why I'm not going to sit here and entertain the *insane* idea that I, a random homosexual American graphic designer, could even possibly have some meaningful solution to "propose" (!) re: an ongoing genocide. I can only accept that the Palestinian people have the right to lead their destiny.

 

To recognize all I can do is be an observer, and maybe a vocal activist in a very limited capacity as a citizen of the nation financing the genocidal colony (only money talks in America and I already live in a district where the Democrat is one of the rare ones to support a ceasefire).

 

To actually remove the sensationalism surrounding the shock and horror of death, by recognizing death is part of this situation no matter how much it makes me uncomfortable to 'see'. That such death and violence *has always been* part of the Palestinian reality for as long as Israel has existed. And to listen to Palestinians when they say that those who somehow only began paying attention after 10/07 - and who rush to convince the Palestinian people to accept living under Israel's boot and lay down their weapons - don't have much care for them after all.

If you're not going to provide any rationalization for what I think are your equally as *insane* ideas regarding the outcome of this war and your refusal to engage with what I'm actually arguing (considering that the first half of this post I'm quoting was you arguing over semantics, that Hamas actually had responded mutually to the Israeli destruction because of the damage done to the Israeli image and sense of safety; and the second half was a cop-out as to why you can't actually respond to what I'm saying, followed by an attempt to shame me for my perspective as someone who apparently doesn't care about Palestinians) then you seriously discredit yourself. You can make the "I'm an irrelevant American who can't dream of proposing a meaningful solution" point all you like, but I'm not asking you for anything actionable. It's not as if I'm any more powerful in this situation than you are, my thoughts are just as meaningless and worthless to the bigger picture as yours are. The only difference between us here is that I'm willing to sound out what the outcome might be, and I think you continue to dodge and deflect away from what I'm asking from you because you aren't able to consider it. It might be worthless trying to get one ATRL gay to reconsider his preconceived notions and to answer for himself, but all discussions held on this website regarding politics and foreign affairs are pretty worthless anyway and you've certainly dedicated hundreds of hours to those. I'm glad you have overcome your discomfort and can recognize that there is no feel-good solution to the horrors here, but your inability to propose or support any serious solution whatsoever is what I find baffling, especially when you're more than willing to shoot down mine. 

 

I only argue what I do because I have an outsiders perspective (read: not a supporter of zionistic genocide nor ideologically driven martyrdom) and have a research background in mass casualty conflicts (mostly civil wars, but still), and know that there are points of no-return and we are quickly nearing one. When the US draws its metaphorical red line and then Israel ignores it without consequence (or the election of any Republican as President, whichever comes first), that will be the end of any hope for a peaceful conclusion with whatever Palestinian survivors there may be. Maybe I'm foolish and it is the genuine wish of every Palestinian to die at the hands of Israel in an act of martyrdom, in which case my argument of "accede before it is too late" would be misguided, but I'm not ideologically driven enough to support that now. 

[ClashAndBurn]

Man, those Obama advisors sure know how to pick ‘em…

[nooniebao]

 

 

[ClashAndBurn]

16 minutes ago, nooniebao said:

 

 

Neolibs shitting on the first amendment of the Constitution to own the… victims of a genocide and their advocates? Ok then…

[Communion]

2 hours ago, wastedpotential said:

Before 10/7, Israel was averaging a few hundred to a few thousand killed Palestinians per year.

Attempted narrative like this is why I will never buy into the de-facto silencing tactic of trying to equate explaining why Hamas committed 10/07 with support for such, because posts like these will try and pretend as though reality is not self-apparent if allowed to.

 

Your post frames things as *getting better* for Palestinians. 2018 was the worst tally for injured Palestinians in over a decade. Unnecessary Israel aggression to what were literally peaceful protests led to the kind of radicalization that spurred and birthed the plans of 10/07. Gazans used to have a majority support for a 2 state solution! 

 

Do you honestly think Hamas would have committed 10/07 - and the majority of Palestinians support such actions - if they believed things were *getting better*?

 

2022 literally saw the most deaths of Palestinians in the West Bank by the IDF in, again, a decade! Jewish politicians were literally leading pogroms into the West Bank in February this year! 10/07 was a *reaction* to immense violence and hopelessness that Israel caused. There is no other way to approach understanding this conflict.

 

You keep demanding some "rationalization" and an "actually serious solution" despite continually failing to see it is neither up to you or I to deem what is or isn't a serious solution for the Palestinian people. That it be hubris and paternalism to discuss such so plainly and matter of factly like as though you're discussing chemistry.

 

I would be concerned with an American, for example, earnestly thinking the only result is mass death and that Palestine should surrender their existence to Israeli subjugation, but who mysteriously will still be voting for Joe Biden come November 2024. Odd to demand the Palestinian people think the only logical solution is to be dominated yet refusing as an American to similarly take the uncomfortable risk of a Trump victory in order to leverage withholding your vote for concessions from Biden over his unconditional support for genocide. Seems dishonest to vehemently argue the Palestinian people have no tools at their disposal yet then refuse to use the ones at yours.

 

I am not going to be convinced into viewing the Palestinian liberation movement as an irrational project while also being asked to ignore the collective delusion of Israeli society and its commitment to continued violence, let alone then gaslit to center the fallout from said collective delusion as the top priority of the global community.

[nooniebao]

Quote

In this exclusive report for The Grayzone, Jeremy Loffredo provides an on-the-ground look at the fear and violence that has consumed occupied Palestinian communities across the West Bank, from the Jordan Valley to the Christian village of Taybeh, as settlers and the Israeli army exploit the shock of October 7 to carry out dispossession on a mass scale.

 

[Letemtalk]

16 hours ago, Espresso said:

 

It was never about Hamas. Israel doesn't want any Palestinians having any form of government or self determination.

[Kassi]

10 hours ago, Communion said:

Then it seems they'll just have to live with experiencing 10/07 over and over and over. 

You’re not understanding.

 

They (Palestinians) won’t get another chance to pull this off again. 

[nooniebao]

 

[nooniebao]

 

[ClashAndBurn]

2 hours ago, Kassi said:

You’re not understanding.

 

They (Palestinians)

At least you’re finally going mask off and admitting that this is all about annihilating the Palestinians as a whole instead of some righteous crusade against solely “Khamas”! The genocide denial from you, GhostBox, and pretty much all of the Joe Biden supporters on the neolib subreddits has been mentally exhausting to put up with tbh!