news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[Glam]

1 hour ago, airplane said:

The IDF is also a terrorist organisation

Do you have a source for this claim? Other than your personal feelings on the matter.

 

Please reply with relevant sources and not propaganda.

[ZeroSuitBritney]

RIP to innocent civilans on both side. This issue has escalated for far too long.

 

At the end of the day, there is only one side that can end all this injustice, and that is Israel. All they need to do is end the occupation and prison like condition they have put on the Palestinian people.

[Eternal220]

When will the arab states + Palestine + Iran leave Israel alone? They have initiated multiple wars and kept losing so they have to resort to terrorist attacks. 
 

To the Israelis on here, do know that there are Muslims out there that support your right to freedom and denounce Hamas and palestinian aggression ❤️

[ebaby]

47 minutes ago, Hey Dude said:

Idk if this was posted already but here's Madonna's response.

TW: her tweet includes a video.

 

  Hide contents

 

 

we had a whole -now closed- thread about it. don't remind me

 

[Communion]

36 minutes ago, Glam said:

I was just pointing out how I know who can't possibly be the good guys by affiliation.

You needed to point out that Venezuela of all powers supports Palestinian liberation to make the point that Hamas is bad, as opposed to just the reality that the right-wing governments of Israel have for decades both funded and aided Hamas and leaned on them as Islamist allies to shudder secular movements amongst Palestinian Arabs?

 

Ironically a hatred of Marxists seems to be exactly how Hamas was ushered into existence and influence.

 

Whatever your own personal feelings about socialists and communists, Palestinian liberation is being led by the very same communist groups who are the only secular alternative to Hamas that you're claiming needs to exist to somehow justify Palestinian liberation.

 

And unfortunately for Israel, it seems substantial amounts of secular Palestinians have decided freedom is more likely achieved through battling apartheid - whether in coordination with Hamas or not - than begging for an ethno-nationalist movement to see their humanity. 

 

While Hamas' needless cruelty is wrong and all civilians deaths are tragic, it seems intentional that Western headlines have erased the reality of groups like PFLP and others have focused their attention on dismantling military outposts, bases and US-provided weaponry that are used to largely terrorize and kill Palestinian civilians.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Communion

[ebaby]

4 minutes ago, Eternal220 said:

When will the arab states + Palestine + Iran leave Israel alone? They have initiated multiple wars and kept losing so they have to resort to terrorist attacks. 
 

To the Israelis on here, do know that there are Muslims out there that support your right to freedom and denounce Hamas and palestinian aggression ❤️

keep "palestinian aggression" out of your mouth.

 

"when will the arabs leave israel alone?"

 

they literally chose to occupy THEIR land. use your brain.

[CoolNebraskaGuy]

3 minutes ago, Eternal220 said:

When will the arab states + Palestine + Iran leave Israel alone? They have initiated multiple wars and kept losing so they have to resort to terrorist attacks. 
 

To the Israelis on here, do know that there are Muslims out there that support your right to freedom and denounce Hamas and palestinian aggression ❤️

History doesn't start with the foundation of Israel. People lived in the Levant for over a millennia after the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans in 70CE and the subsequent Diaspora. Do you expect the people who made their home there (Palestinians) to simply accept that their land was given from under them to Israel by the West? 

 

[Gaia]

49 minutes ago, awesomepossum said:

You want to learn about this conflict, because you don't know anything about it, but are still drawing a conclusion about the reasonableness or unreasonableness of the pro-Palestinian position based on your own ignorance? I don't know if you are able to understand this, but real people are really being killed, maimed, displaced, harrassed, demeaned, occupied. This 'conflict' is a real issue with real life and death consequences for real people. You think you're taking some kind of moral high ground by 1) refusing to educate yourself and 2) dismissing the lives and rights and suffering of real human beings because of some Tweets or ATRL posts you saw online??? Babe, you have no moral compass to speak of.

I never claimed to take a moral high ground, I said the nasty things I’ve seen from the pro-Palestinian side make me not want to support that side. And you’re further proving the point. Attacking people. It’s all I see pro-Palestinians do online. 
 

Ive insulted plenty of people in my lifetime, but did I do so and then expect them to ever see my point of view? No. 
 

So go off king, hats too more unpleasant pro-Palestinian interactions that give me no inclination to try and sympathize or view Israel as the bad guy

 

and you can say, “I don’t care if you do or don’t!” But it’s a chain reaction. My experience leads to me talking to family and friends with what I’ve experienced leading to a growing negative perception of being “pro-Palestinian.” But continue doing what you guys do I guess. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Gaia

[FlyPirate]

19 minutes ago, Glam said:

Do you have a source for this claim? Other than your personal feelings on the matter.

 

Please reply with relevant sources and not propaganda.

“Violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and/or groups who are inspired by, or associated with, designated foreign terrorist organizations or nations (state-sponsored).”

 

the IDF is, by definition, a terrorist organisation.

[airplane]

11 minutes ago, Eternal220 said:

When will the arab states + Palestine + Iran leave Israel alone? They have initiated multiple wars and kept losing so they have to resort to terrorist attacks. 
 

To the Israelis on here, do know that there are Muslims out there that support your right to freedom and denounce Hamas and palestinian aggression ❤️

you are actually so sick and the fact that you call yourself a Muslim 

[Kitty Kat]

Does anyone have any breakdown on the deaths reported on the Palestinian side? I know that 925 are reported as dead. Are we aware how many of them are Hamas? I'm asking because someone asked me this in response to me sharing the figures of death, injury, displacement, and houses destroyed on the Palestinian side. I'm concerned that the deaths on the Palestinian side will simply be viewed as being Hamas and its collaborators, as opposed to a continuation of the suffering put upon the Palestinian people by the occupation.

[Communion]

28 minutes ago, Glam said:

Do you have a source for this claim? 

"EU Parliament co-signs International Criminal Court decision of opening up inquiry against Israel for war crimes being committed against Palestinians in the West Bank by the Israeli government & IDF."

- July 12th, 2023

 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Communion

[Glam]

8 minutes ago, Communion said:

You needed to point out that Venezuela of all powers supports Palestinian liberation to make the point that Hamas is bad

I am aware that the Venezuelan regime is not powerful, but it's the only regime I know from personal experience as I lived in Venezuela most of my life. I am not one of those privileged first worlders that think it's edgy to talk a lot of crap from their iPhone, I have in situ experience.

 

If you look at all of Hamas' allies, they are all serial human rights violators so it's no surprise to me what Hamas did last Saturday. I don't care about the Palestinians' fight for their country cause that's their business. But Hamas would kill every single citizen of Israel if they could and that's the organization you and others are defending. How are you different from the nazis? I've always known the far left are the real nazis but it's such a delight for y'all to finally admit it.

 

[CoolNebraskaGuy]

7 minutes ago, Glam said:

I am aware that the Venezuelan regime is not powerful, but it's the only regime I know from personal experience as I lived in Venezuela most of my life. I am not one of those privileged first worlders that think it's edgy to talk a lot of crap from their iPhone, I have in situ experience.

 

If you look at all of Hamas' allies, they are all serial human rights violators so it's no surprise to me what Hamas did last Saturday. I don't care about the Palestinians' fight for their country cause that's their business. But Hamas would kill every single citizen of Israel if they could and that's the organization you and others are defending. How are you different from the nazis? I've always known the far left are the real nazis but it's such a delight for y'all to finally admit it.

 

Your logic is deeply flawed. You seemingly have no understanding of the fundamentals of what has created this hellscape in the Levant. 

 

We ALL know Hamas is a terrorist organization. Terrorism is bad. I don't see anyone in here defending Hamas. You're chasing your own tail.

 

You can't seem to look beyond the horror of the present moment to understand what caused it, and it results in a deeply primitive reaction to current events. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by CoolNebraskaGuy

[Glam]

6 minutes ago, Communion said:

"EU Parliament co-signs International Criminal Court decision of opening up inquiry against Israel for war crimes being committed against Palestinians in the West Bank by the Israeli government & IDF."

- July 12th, 2023

 

 

"Opening up an inquiry" okay.

 

Even if they do commit war crimes, that doesn't mean they are a terrorist organization. That's my point. You can say a lot of bad stuff about them and about what they have done, but it makes no sense to use a definition that doesn't particularly suit them just because you don't like it when I call Hamas terrorists. It would make a lot more sense to explain why Hamas isn't a terrorist organization.

[Communion]

9 minutes ago, Glam said:

I don't care about the Palestinians' fight for their country cause that's their business.

 

2 minutes ago, Glam said:

Even if [the IDF] do commit war crimes, that doesn't mean they are a terrorist organization.

- the average person who finds the Zionist goal of genocide normal and permissible.

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Communion

[Raphy23]

What is this about? 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Raphy23

[CoolNebraskaGuy]

1 minute ago, Raphy23 said:

What is this about?  it’s everywhere

Is this really where you want to learn about what's going on?

 

Home - BBC News

Breaking News, World News and Video from Al Jazeera

Edited October 11, 2023 by CoolNebraskaGuy

[Glam]

2 minutes ago, CoolNebraskaGuy said:

Your logic is deeply flawed. You seemingly have no understanding of the fundamentals of what has created this hellscape in the Levant. 

 

We ALL know Hamas is a terrorist organization. Terrorism is bad. You can't seem to look beyond the horror of the present moment to understand what caused it, and it results in a deeply primitive reaction to current events. 

Why are y'all constantly bringing up other stuff that isn't related to Hamas?

 

Al Qaeda did 9-11 and they hid in Afghanistan under the skirts of the Taliban, which was originally funded by the US and Pakistan to counter the socialists in Afghanistan. The soviets and the US kept Afghanistan in a perpetual state of war that resulted in the Taliban taking over. Does all of this mean that the US had to just let Al Qaeda chill in Afghanistan and wait for the next attack? Even if the Taliban eventually rose back to power, Al Qaeda isn't a thing anymore and Bin Laden is dead. The war wasn't a complete failure even if it was messy and became pointless after a while. You guys are telling me that I fail to see the bigger picture of the Palestine-Israel conflict, and to some degree that might be true, but are you really understanding the implications of the events of the last couple of days? Everything changed after last Saturday, you have to understand that. You guys are telling me the context that led to this moment, and that's perfectly valid, but right now we're on a whole different level of conflict.

[Eternal220]

31 minutes ago, airplane said:

you are actually so sick and the fact that you call yourself a Muslim 

Sick because I don’t support Hamas dragging dead israeli civilians back to Gaza to be spat on? 

[Glam]

14 minutes ago, Communion said:

 

- the average person who finds the Zionist goal of genocide normal and permissible.

 

It's a shame that after your last (mostly reasonable) post you follow it up with a straight up lie. Nowhere did I say that genocide is normal and permissible. In fact a few posts ago I said that the horrific attacks don't give Israel a free pass to just obliterate the Gaza Strip.

[Harrier]

2 hours ago, State of Grace. said:

After catching up with the thread, I want to say once again that nobody wants to see innocent civilians getting killed, and I wish we didn't have to see videos of literal children (Palestinian and Israeli) being murdered like that. No one is exonerating Hamas. I thought it goes without saying, but we have to keep repeating it.

 

That being said, you really can't claim that you "want peace" and still support Israel in the same breath, or fail to see that all of what's happening now is a result of Israel's ongoing illegal occupation. If you want peace and want violence to end, you don't look at the symptoms, you address the root cause which is the decades of oppression that preceded this. Hamas exists because of Israel, not the other way around. Another important detail that many people seem to forget is that Israel literally backed and funded Hamas in the 80s as a way to combat and tackle the more secular Fatah/PLO. It was a classic divide/conquer policy in hopes that religious extremism would delegitimize the entire cause and the idea of a Palestinian state. They have obviously found value in this because Hamas = an excuse for collective punishment and retaliation.

 

Israel has turned Gaza into the largest open-air prison in the world and has subjected Palestinians there to sub-human living conditions, daily humiliation, violent series of massacres, and human rights abuses for years. The pick-and-choose approach that many users on this site like doesn't work here. There is an occupier (Israel) and an occupied land (Palestine). There is an oppressor (Israel) and an oppressed (Palestinians) side and no amount of gaslighting or defense of an apartheid regime shrouded in claims of being "against antisemitism!", "against terrorism!", or "for women and gay rights!" will ever change this fact. 

 

I'm sorry (not sorry) to burst your bubble, but you are really not more intelligent if you keep both-sidesing a conflict where only one side has the ability to cut basic life utilities and systemically starve millions, and the other side is trapped inside facing constant massacres and being used as an experimental ground for new weapons. One side is imposing an apartheid regime. Two can't. This is an inherently flawed position and being neutral is just as bad as supporting the oppressor, even if your "intentions are good" or claim that you want "peace for everyone".

 

There’s also no shortage of condemnation of Hamas by media outlets internationally, but the absolute silence about Israel's medieval tactics and the last few decades of brutality and abuse against Palestinian citizens leads to this illusion that the Hamas attacks were unprovoked.

 

Yes, innocent civilians dying is absolutely horrific. But do you know what’s even more horrific? The longest-running military occupation in history. 

 

Free Palestine, from the river to the sea. 🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸

I dont disagree with your statements about the brutality of the occupation. I agree that Israel has more power in the peace process. Where I disagree is in your erasure of Palestinian agency, and with your framing that seems to imply the slaughter that has occured is tragic but necessary. Gaza is an open air prison - no doubt about it. But that fact doesn't leave Hamas with no choice but to indiscriminately murder and rape civillians. This framing is fundamentally wrong and falls into what is in my view a common pitfall, which is to argue oppressed peoples do not have any power to make decisions. Along the same lines as blaming America for Ugandan homophobia, to use a random example.

 

Additionally, it is simply foolish to ignore the role that radical Islamist terrorism has played in perpetuating the cycle of violence, leading Israel and also the surrounding Arab states to continue brutal policies with the "justification" of protecting their people. Just like it is true that Israel's actions lead to Hamas, it is also true that the existence of Hamas is what led Israel and Egypt to blockade Gaza since 2007. Again - do not erase Palestinian agency. 

 

Additionally, I disagree with your goals vehemently. Lets unpack the common statement you ended your post with - "from river to sea" - what does that entail? How would that be achieved? How does this not constitute ethnic cleansing? Should Jews be allowes to stay in the Levant, or should they be sent back to the diaspora countries to make way for the right of return? How would this happen without terrible violence and suffering on a scale that vastly outmatches even what happened in the late 40s? Additionally, let's also acknowledge that a significant percentage of Israeli Jews fled from Arab countries - where do they go?

 

I understand and greatly respect your drive to see Palestine free. But your one state goal will not happen, and while millions of people remain committed to it, there will not be peace. The same is true of Zionist goals. Two states is the only way, period end of story.

[Capris Groove]

22 minutes ago, CoolNebraskaGuy said:

Is this really where you want to learn about what's going on?

 

Home - BBC News

Breaking News, World News and Video from Al Jazeera

To be fair, neither should he from those websites.

[CoolNebraskaGuy]

3 minutes ago, Glam said:

Why are y'all constantly bringing up other stuff that isn't related to Hamas?

 

Al Qaeda did 9-11 and they hid in Afghanistan under the skirts of the Taliban, which was originally funded by the US and Pakistan to counter the socialists in Afghanistan. The soviets and the US kept Afghanistan in a perpetual state of war that resulted in the Taliban taking over. Does all of this mean that the US had to just let Al Qaeda chill in Afghanistan and wait for the next attack? Even if the Taliban eventually rose back to power, Al Qaeda isn't a thing anymore and Bin Laden is dead. The war wasn't a complete failure even if it was messy and became pointless after a while. You guys are telling me that I fail to see the bigger picture of the Palestine-Israel conflict, and to some degree that might be true, but are you really understanding the implications of the events of the last couple of days? Everything changed after last Saturday, you have to understand that. You guys are telling me the context that led to this moment, and that's perfectly valid, but right now we're on a whole different level of conflict.

How are you going to accuse me of talking about things that aren't related to Hamas and start talking about Al Qaeda and Bin Laden?!

 

There's a whole lot to unpack in what you said. The American Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were absolutely failures, its wild that you would imply otherwise. Over 3 million dead and several nations destroyed for what exactly? Should we continue the War on Terror?  Unreal

 

Maybe we should start to examine how imperialist/colonialist foreign policy creates environments ripe for radicalization and terrorism? Or would that require too much of an understanding of the context?

 

[Communion]

After that, it feels important to highlight these below posts from before from users who always speak with both consideration and sincerity (with all 3 being far more eloquent and in-tune to many of the experiences being touched on than myself could be [praise to a myriad of other users as well, of course]):

 

(I'm also thinking of @Jjang in times like this and hope they're doing okay. )

 

23 hours ago, Scars said:

It's very understable that there's a large number of people that want to take a moment to publicly mourn the israeli lives that were lost during the past few days, I don't think there's any sort of malicious sin in doing so. In fact, that's a pretty much unchallenged take on most of the western/westernized world, some small circles acting otherwise are a exception.

 

What's not so easy to understand is how people fail to comprehend that "this attack marks a shift on the world's view on Israel-Palestine!"/"something has forever changed after this!" narrative currently pushed all over the West is by itself a perpetuation of the double standard that have always taken place when it comes to the perception of the dynamics between Israel and Palestine. 

 

Yes, there's no denying this was the most brutal HAMAS attack, but palestinian civilians were already systematically killed at much higher rates at the hands of IDF for as far one can remember and that by itself has never changed the western status quo on Israel-Palestine:

 

- Western corporate media have ALWAYS been unabashedly pro-Israel;

- America, regardless of the political party affiliation in power, have always financially supported the IDF and it's right to defend Israel, regardless of how dubious that "right" looked at the time;

- NATO have always maintained a close relationship with Israel, regardless of it's record of crimes against humanity.

 

So, when it comes to western perception of the "moral ground" of Israel and Palestine, what has exactly changed other than the fact that people are reacting in shock and anger to see middle easterns - that look like them - being brutally murdered? 

 

At the end of the day, Israel and most of the West have always mutually agreed that israeli forces had the right to cause terror on Gaza and West Bank, no justification needed. If one can comprehend that the existence of groups like HAMAS is primarily a result of the Israel regime and it's occupation of palestinian territories in the first place, I fail to see how one can't comprehend that the latest events lead us to some questions:

 

- When will the West stop to constantly ask palestinians to prove their humanity instead of holding Israel accountable for events that are a result of their inhumane treatment of palestinians?

- What does it take for Israel to stop it's illegal annexation territories?

- If one believe HAMAS isn't a suitable military force to fight for Palestine, being unclear how many palestinians actually support them, can we look back historically on *how* and *why* did it manage to strongly surpass the influence of Fatah, a secular popular party?

 

2 hours ago, State of Grace. said:

After catching up with the thread, I want to say once again that nobody wants to see innocent civilians getting killed, and I wish we didn't have to see videos of literal children (Palestinian and Israeli) being murdered like that. No one is exonerating Hamas. I thought it goes without saying, but we have to keep repeating it.

 

That being said, you really can't claim that you "want peace" and still support Israel in the same breath, or fail to see that all of what's happening now is a result of Israel's ongoing illegal occupation. If you want peace and want violence to end, you don't look at the symptoms, you address the root cause which is the decades of oppression that preceded this. Hamas exists because of Israel, not the other way around. Another important detail that many people seem to forget is that Israel literally backed and funded Hamas in the 80s as a way to combat and tackle the more secular Fatah/PLO. It was a classic divide/conquer policy in hopes that religious extremism would delegitimize the entire cause and the idea of a Palestinian state. They have obviously found value in this because Hamas = an excuse for collective punishment and retaliation.

 

Israel has turned Gaza into the largest open-air prison in the world and has subjected Palestinians there to sub-human living conditions, daily humiliation, violent series of massacres, and human rights abuses for years. The pick-and-choose approach that many users on this site like doesn't work here. There is an occupier (Israel) and an occupied land (Palestine). There is an oppressor (Israel) and an oppressed (Palestinians) side and no amount of gaslighting or defense of an apartheid regime shrouded in claims of being "against antisemitism!", "against terrorism!", or "for women and gay rights!" will ever change this fact. 

 

I'm sorry (not sorry) to burst your bubble, but you are really not more intelligent if you keep both-sidesing a conflict where only one side has the ability to cut basic life utilities and systemically starve millions, and the other side is trapped inside facing constant massacres and being used as an experimental ground for new weapons. One side is imposing an apartheid regime. Two can't. This is an inherently flawed position and being neutral is just as bad as supporting the oppressor, even if your "intentions are good" or claim that you want "peace for everyone".

 

There’s also no shortage of condemnation of Hamas by media outlets internationally, but the absolute silence about Israel's medieval tactics and the last few decades of brutality and abuse against Palestinian citizens leads to this illusion that the Hamas attacks were unprovoked.

 

Yes, innocent civilians dying is absolutely horrific. But do you know what’s even more horrific? The longest-running military occupation in history. 

 

Free Palestine, from the river to the sea. 🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸

 

5 hours ago, Phantom said:

Seeing discourse around this has been so frustrating to me for several reasons.

 

I think the biggest one is that the right-wing project of permanently distilling Palestinian Liberation into Hamas has succeeded, and this is frankly heartbreaking. We can add context all day about the historical formation of Hamas, the funding sources of Hamas (spoiler: it's ISRAEL!), and why several moderate factions have had to give way (=/= support, as people so cherish to imply, thereby feeding their little "ALL Palestinians are terrorists" hearts) to Hamas, mostly by virtue of how terrorist groups claim power, and several formal attempts (none of which meaningfully rolled back or wanted to roll back ANY of the damage done to Palestinian border integrity) to peace failing, and so on. But the fact is, that the conflation has succeeded. I see even when you ""celebrate"" the liberation movement, you get framed as a terrorist apologist. The linking of the two is done.

 

This is not even to absolve Hamas of any accountability - I think everyone (?) agrees that murdering civilians, concert-goers (many of whom I would wager also oppose the Zionist state, but I guess we will never know ), beheading infants etc. is...well, horrific?? I think the constant demands from everyone to 24/7 center their condemnation of Hamas - something most people are comfortable, happy, and willing to do from the get-go - multiple, constant times as a preface to every contribution is once again that former right-wing project succeeding. These constant demands also arouse suspicion when they are not lobbied at those who defend the IDF, who also have a record murdering civilians, journalists, and even UN Diplomats.

 

My heart breaks for the Jewish citizens suffering now, and a lot of you need to internalize that there is NOTHING that qualitatively differentiates the suffering of Israeli citizens from that of those in Gaza. The broader point that is being made is that the pain that Israel feels this time is one that Palestine has been feeling for several decades. No, I do not believe the murdering of babies and 20-somethings having a good time at a concert is Israel being "gotten back", and no, Israelis suffering now is not something that actually Palestinians think will "fix" this issue.

 

Refusing to look at the context as to how we got here and just screaming HAMAS till blue in the face - something that I see on the international level, with the Five-Eyes releasing a "joint" statement, and even on a functional level (where I am currently has sent out a giant email condemning social media posts that are "pro"-Palestinian Liberation) - is to continue to perpetuate this cycle of pain, and never actually want to address the material solutions that exist. Whether you like hearing this or not does not matter, but the reason this "keeps happening" as some like to say is because the Zionist project - one aided, abetted, and funded by those very countries that are now sprinting to cut funding (and backtrack?) - is not sustainable, and was NEVER sustainable from the outset. Please see: Rhodesia.

 

Zionism is not and has never been something intrinsic to all Jewish people (and actually claiming such is anti-Semitic), and this again is why it is so frustrating to talk about this. I'm sure someone is going to see this as "ADDING NUANCE TO BEHEADING" or whatever. 

 

The I-P conflict gets framed as this ancient, unfixable mess when in reality it is relatively recent, in a historical sense, and not that complex to fix - it's just that several international monied interests, right-wing groups, politicians and so on have no desire to actually fix it, hoping instead the slow crawl to the atrocity and repeated "upgrading" of the oppressor force will tire everyone out. This is never going to happen.

 

If you are rightfully heartbroken about the loss of civilian life on "both sides" this time round, you will find that one "side" has been losing 1000s of civilians consistently over the years. Constantly redirecting the frame to the one time where this is perhaps not as evenly the case (it will be soon, for I see Israel has begun flattening residential buildings) is neither productive from a broad point of view, and what's more is that this is exactly what the architects and maintainers of the Zionist project want you to keep doing.

 

Hamas cannot be wiped out, much like you can't wipe out Taliban, ISIS, and the likes. Brute force has been tried and tested. Funding them when they're moderate to fuel your myopic goals has been tried and tested, which Americans (should) know all too well. If you still keep gawking at Hamas and don't understand from the rich global history of HOW these terrorist demons keep becoming the threat that they are, then you are, unfortunately, part of the problem.

Thank you for your words. It feels almost silly to use emojis in such discussions but it feels important to take time to thank those who always bring clarity to such discussions, especially when times have seen such vitriol grow on ATRL in recent months. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Communion