discussion Communism vs Capitalism Jubilee

[glitch]

Not me thinking this was about a celebration of Communism vs Capitalism like a Silver or Golden Jubilee. Instead it's that banal youtube channel 

[AvadaKedavra]

I live in Colombia. A nation where communist guerillas have bombed and killed thousands of thousands. They have raped. Destroyed families and brought doom for decades and fear.  Everything for the "communist cause" "hacer un estado marxista leninista bolivariano" "nueva marquetalia"   they have ruined the potential of my country and are still haunting us everyday. We did peace deals in the 2010s and theyre still kidnapping people and trying to take over the whole country again.

as a Colombian i have experienced the sufferin of our venezuelans inmigrants-neighboors here eveyryday. Seeing them strugglin to eat and lookin for food  in thrash byns. Their families tragedies and separations.. Their destroyed lives 

Is just soul breaking. As a native spanish speaker i have also talked with so many cubans and they spilling about their sufferin is just.........no words. Just infuriating

When i see members from the first world or people from our nations too livin in their wealthy bourgeois lives/comfortable lives and glamorizing the sufferin in communist nations-dictatorships i get fuckin sick.  One of the only things in life makin me real angry.
You people who glamorize and defend authoritarian goverments. Youre goin to hell  


 If you love those ideas so much you should be send to a slum in one of those nations and experience real hunger and the fear of violence and havin no hope for the future like the northkoreans......havin no freedom






At the same time i understand why capitalism can be disgustin and why americans are done with it and we all worldwide.
How profit triumps over basic human rights. A really disgustin system too. a dog eat dog world.

We need something better than that. A world where everyone individuality is respected but we are all equal. Everyone wins the same money
A self-sustainable utopic world where we work only the necessary and we have good lives like Pokemon-Disney and just have fun 
We have the technology for that type of world. The hyper rich shouldnt exist. (with the exception of the popgirls. they have inmunity. just kiddin)
 

Here for something similar to communism but no the monstrosity pushed by china-russia-north korea and more  
and something with a new name cause the word "communism" is tarnished with blood
 

Edited December 26, 2023 by AvadaKedavra

[Happylittlepunk]

I’m still waiting where in the world does communism work? I have too see any real evidence. If communism truly is stateless is there a village or a town at the very least where in fact it’s actually working? You guys say we should t focus on China or Soviet Union. Ok then fine where is communism thriving? Also point out China isn’t communist they are a state capitalist country so it doesn’t matter how many billionaires they have they are still a capitalist country run by the state. 

[Trent W]

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

I don't identify as a communist. But, much of your rhetoric (and others rhetoric) is basically reducing all of communism to a select few countries that identify themselves as communist states, which is an oxymoron to many communists because a truly communist society would be stateless. 

 

If you want to engage in a real discussion about communism vs. capitalism, then you shouldn't contextualize the ideology espoused by communists to just be mouthpieces for the USSR, the CCP, etc. The fact China has the second most number of billionaires of any country is pretty damning if you want to claim it's some bastion of communism in practice.

 

Simple passages from Wikipedia make it clear that many of these "Communist states" do not adhere to what many communist thinkers and scholars describe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_state

I get what you mean but we really don’t have a good example of the “real communism” 

 

Maybe because it’s really non-realistic?

 

We realistically don’t have the capacity to be stateless as humans

 

Someone will always try to take over and we’ll be back to be North Korea or USA one extreme or the other.

 

The only way I see that idea work is with an AI government in maybe 100 years

 

But not right now, that is just a fantasy tbh.

[Happylittlepunk]

5 minutes ago, AvadaKedavra said:

I live in Colombia. A nation where communist guerillas have bombed and killed thousands of thousands. They have raped. Destroyed families and brought doom for decades.  Everything for the "communist cause" 

as a Colombian i have experienced the sufferin of our venezuelans inmigrants-neighboors here. Seeing them strugglin to eat. Their families tragedies. Their destroyed lives 

Is just soul breaking. As a native spanish speaker i have also talked with so many cubans and they spilling about their sufferin is just.........no words

When i see members from the first world livin in their wealthy bourgeois lives and glamorizing the sufferin in communist nations-dictatorships i get fuckin sick. 
You people who glamorize and defend authoritarian goverments. Youre goin to hell



 If you love those ideas so much you should be send to a slum in one of those nations and experience real hunger and the fear of violence and havin no hope for the future.



At the same time i understand why capitalism can be disgustin and why americans members get tired of it. How profit triumps over basic human rights
We need something better than that. A world where everyone individuality is respected but we are all equal. Everyone wins the same money
A self-sustainable utopic world where we work only the necessary and we have good lives like Pokemon-Disney and just have fun 
We have the technology for that type of world. The hyper rich should exist. 
 

Here for something similar to communism but no the monstrosity pushed by china-russia-north korea and more  

 

Same brother I am latino too and speak Spanish and grew up in Mexico and I also experienced talking to Venezuelans and Cubans and say horrific stuff. Many of them find major relief moving to US or other Latin nations where there is no communism. They are able to escape it easier compared to other communist regions. So they have a better say how communism actually works in the modern age. 

[Trent W]

4 minutes ago, Happylittlepunk said:

I’m still waiting where in the world does communism work? I have too see any real evidence. If communism truly is stateless is there a village or a town at the very least where in fact it’s actually working? You guys say we should t focus on China or Soviet Union. Ok then fine where is communism thriving? Also point out China isn’t communist they are a state capitalist country so it doesn’t matter how many billionaires they have they are still a capitalist country run by the state. 

Those members referencing to stateless real communism are basically the other side of the coin to people who read the bible and are right wing

 

Comunists use these fantasies to manipulate them and create states like Cuba and North Korea

 

Trump does the same with Christianity in the US

 

Is just manipulation and fantasies that people Blindly follow

[AvadaKedavra]

11 minutes ago, Trent W said:

I get what you mean but we really don’t have a good example of the “real communism” 

 

Maybe because it’s really non-realistic?

 

We realistically don’t have the capacity to be stateless as humans

 

Someone will always try to take over and we’ll be back to be North Korea or USA one extreme or the other.

 

The only way I see that idea work is with an AI government in maybe 100 years

 

But not right now, that is just a fantasy tbh.

If im not wrong those communist-communes societies work well in a smaller scale.....But once it gets bigger the evilness take over the system and ruins it 

This is one of the hardest realities we havent accepted yet. The Universe will keep pushing bad people to the forefront

Everyday .....someone new is born.......Someone good spirited and someone nasty and evil. This is the rule of the universe

The only way for us to reverse this evilness is genetic engineering  i think thats the only way to achieve communism.
Have a society where all humans are born with empathy and emotions and we all care about each other  
cause so many leaders in the right-left wing are clearly sociopaths-psychopaths  

sociopaths-psicophatic and narcissist control the whole planet and the innocent and nice get pushed to the side and cannibalized and mocked 

Edited December 26, 2023 by AvadaKedavra

[Trent W]

9 minutes ago, AvadaKedavra said:

If im not wrong those communist-communes societies work well in a smaller scale.....But once it gets bigger the evilness take over the system and ruins it 

This is one of the hardest realities we havent accepted yet. The Universe will keep pushing bad people to the forefront

Everyday .....someone new is born.......Someone good spirited and someone nasty and evil. This is the rule of the universe

The only way for us to reverse this evilness is genetic engineering  i think thats the only way to achieve communism.
Have a society where all humans are born with empathy and emotions and we all care about each other  
cause so many leaders in the right-left wing are clearly sociopaths-psychopaths  

sociopaths-psicophatic and narcissist control the whole planet and the innocent and nice get pushed to the side and cannibalized and mocked 

Yeah I’ve seen examples of those small communities of hundreds of people, but that doesn’t work in a large scale.

 

We tend to forget humans are animals, some of course are conscious but the big majority are just predators and want supremacy.

 

And statistically its impossible that everyone is conscious enough to make an ideal equal society work.

 

This happens in basically any living organism in the universe, something eats something to survive and remains supreme.

 

AI might one day govern equally but even then AI might just want domination and we are back to square one

 

 

[Kassi]

1 hour ago, AMIT said:

Capitalists: "You will own NOTHING and be happy about it!"

 

ATRL member Kassi: "Now that I think about it, Communism is like a zero sum game!" 

 

In the end Marx agrees with me. So idek why I’m arguing.
 

He saw capitalism as a progressive historical stage that liberated the forces of production kept dormant by feudalism. He knew that it was a strong force for technological advancement and that communism could only be born out of capitalism. It’s called historical materialism.  
 

Communism is the end stage. But y’all are so lazy you wanna rush to the finish line before doing your part and expending your labor to usher in an automated, post-scarcity society! Where’s your sense of duty and sacrifice, comrade? 

 

 

 

[Communion]

1 hour ago, Kassi said:

You view the world as a zero sum game, where one person inherently loses when another one wins. 

Capitalism has proved this to be patently untrue. And has introduced a positive sum game, where rising tides lift all boats.

 

 

[AMIT]

11 minutes ago, Kassi said:

In the end Marx agrees with me. So idek why I’m arguing.
 

He saw capitalism as a progressive historical stage that liberated the forces of production kept dormant by feudalism. He knew that it was a strong force for technological advancement and that communism could only be born out of capitalism. It’s called historical materialism.  
 

Communism is the end stage. But y’all are so lazy you wanna rush to the finish line before doing your part and expending your labor to usher in an automated, post-scarcity society! Where’s your sense of duty and sacrifice, comrade? 

 

 

 

so you went from saying that Communism is bad and has failed every time it's been implemented to now saying that Communism has actually never existed (both are wrong btw!) and that we'll get there with time as long as we keep bootlicking the capitalists so they'll eventually give up their power so easily because Marx said so...

 

and you want us to believe you're a serious person? 

 

 

[AMIT]

57 minutes ago, Happylittlepunk said:

I’m still waiting where in the world does communism work? I have too see any real evidence. If communism truly is stateless is there a village or a town at the very least where in fact it’s actually working? You guys say we should t focus on China or Soviet Union. Ok then fine where is communism thriving? Also point out China isn’t communist they are a state capitalist country so it doesn’t matter how many billionaires they have they are still a capitalist country run by the state. 

 

(loads of more examples in the video description)

 

 

and some relevant political theory for fun:

 

 

[Communion]

16 minutes ago, Kassi said:

Communism is the end stage.

Part of the science of dialectical materialism is recognizing when the inherent contradictions of capitalism are stretched to the point of snapping. 

 

Such an example is being a $150k a year c-suite exec who thinks everything is fine in his country where your most poor peers become so destitute that their material realities become in-line with - or worse than - the tiny communist island your government blockaded from outside trade for decades in the hope of economic destruction.

 

 

[Communion]

Timely! And ironically feels like I'm conversing with a bunch of Nate Silver's!

 

 

[Kassi]

28 minutes ago, AMIT said:

so you went from saying that Communism is bad and has failed every time it's been implemented to now saying that Communism has actually never existed (both are wrong btw!) and that we'll get there with time as long as we keep bootlicking the capitalists so they'll eventually give up their power so easily because Marx said so...

 

and you want us to believe you're a serious person? 

 

 

 

I don’t agree with communism as a viable political philosophy (due to its inherently coercive nature). But even if I did, I’m just saying that Marx told y’all to chill out until Google and OpenAI at least figure out artificial general intelligence. 
 

Pump the breaks a little, mawmah! 

[Kassi]

43 minutes ago, Communion said:

 

 

Yes, I too would love to make Republican politics obsolete.  

[AMIT]

18 minutes ago, Kassi said:

 

I don’t agree with communism as a viable political philosophy (due to its inherently coercive nature). But even if I did, I’m just saying that Marx told y’all to chill out until Google and OpenAI at least figure out artificial general intelligence. 
 

Pump the breaks a little, mawmah! 

You know what is coercive? Forcing people to work (under someone else's rules no less) or else they starve and go homeless. Have fun not retiring and keep working until your death bed. 

 

Your inconsistent and contraditory ''arguments'' are a great example of how a mind of a liberal works. Keep believing the system, it will sort itself out any day now!

 

 

[Kassi]

58 minutes ago, Communion said:

Part of the science of dialectical materialism is recognizing when the inherent contradictions of capitalism are stretched to the point of snapping. 

 

Such an example is being a $150k a year c-suite exec who thinks everything is fine in his country where your most poor peers become so destitute that their material realities become in-line with - or worse than - the tiny communist island your government blockaded from outside trade for decades in the hope of economic destruction.

 

 

Marx theorized for many reasons that money would inevitably cease to be a useful commodity of exchange if material production were ever fully automated. This is why people describe the communist mode of production as "moneyless, stateless, and classless". 
 

Money became useful when people began exchanging manufactured goods, as there is great utility in having a single unit of measure that can account for both human labor and raw resources. 

 

But if material production were fully automated, the cost of consumer products would be equal to the cost of the raw materials used. 

 

And, in an economy where physical labor is fully automated, then the only valuable way for humans to contribute to the economy would be in the knowledge economy, where there is endless opportunity for the creation of new markets and ideas. But, using a capitalist market economy to trade ideas is actually highly inefficient. 
 

And THAT’S when communism would kick in. It’s supposed to flow naturally:
 

primitive society → feudalism → capitalism → socialism → communism
 

Yet ya’ll are missing all of the necessary pre-conditions and jumping straight to the prize. In so far as why “real communism” hasn’t ever been achieved, I would say it basically boils down to trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

 

 

 

[Kassi]

Not me providing y’all with free pro-communist arguments. I should be getting paid for this. 

[Communion]

18 minutes ago, Kassi said:

Yet ya’ll are missing all of the necessary pre-conditions 

Something tells me the economic conditions of our time might just be predicting the inherent contradictions of capitalism, sis!

[Take Me Apart]

Shilling for Communism post high school is embarrassing ngl 

 

It's never gonna happen, move on and support a Soc-dem party  

Edited December 27, 2023 by Take Me Apart

[Domination]

This thread has been a fun read

[Kassi]

38 minutes ago, Communion said:

Something tells me the economic conditions of our time might just be predicting the inherent contradictions of capitalism, sis!

As long as people continue to vote Republican it’s hard to see a way forward to socialism and then communism in our lifetime.
 

The contradictions aren’t contradicting enough, I fear.  

[Lionceau géorgien]

56 minutes ago, Kassi said:

And, in an economy where physical labor is fully automated, then the only valuable way for humans to contribute to the economy would be in the knowledge economy, where there is endless opportunity for the creation of new markets and ideas. But, using a capitalist market economy to trade ideas is actually highly inefficient. 
 

 

Hοw come? Provided that we don't change the definition of Capitalism  or its terms of application, isn't a system that allows for any given thing to be represented on the market in as many gradations and variations imaginable, for the critical consumer to judge ,the best way for pretty much anything( save perhaps medicine and food), especially for abstract things, such as art, ideas, concepts, etc.? Unless Socialism and Communism envision a new class of people––whatever they might be called––that will have a fresh way of assessing the value of things, why is Capitalism ill-fitted for...the only thing that it's actually been good at?

[Kassi]

1 hour ago, AMIT said:

You know what is coercive? Forcing people to work (under someone else's rules no less) or else they starve and go homeless. Have fun not retiring and keep working until your death bed. 

 

Your inconsistent and contraditory ''arguments'' are a great example of how a mind of a liberal works. Keep believing the system, it will sort itself out any day now!

 

 

I wasn’t contradictory, but maybe the switch up was a little stark. I just got tired of arguing with y’all when even Marx himself wasn’t “against” capitalism. 
 

But to summarize for anyone who reads this later, my full position is that:

• Marxism is not a socioeconomic system, rather, it is a theory of how socioeconomic systems evolve over time and are phased out as humanity develops. 
• It's a very broad "systems theory", not itself a proposed system. People mistake Marx for an anti-capitalist, yet, he knew capitalism played a vital role in the development of humanity. 
• Most of his later work centered around the fact that capitalism should not necessarily be "overthrown", but that capitalism would be forced to develop through a socialist phase and into the communist mode of production as technology developed. 
• So Marxism isn't exactly opposed to capitalism. Marx just said the “predatory” phase of humanity could not last forever and would end when the capitalist mode of production had been fully phased out. That is, after the means of production were fully developed.

My main point of contention is that communism, being the end state that it is, denotes a sort of unattainable “utopia”. And that capitalism, in practice, actually DOES help to mediate the worse of human impulses by establishing an impersonal price system that gets us all to cooperate in a global economic market. One is a fantasy and the other is real.

 

And, even further, people trying to front-run the “natural” evolution of communism  (assuming it’s even possible) is the reason why every major attempt at forcibly installing the system has failed catastrophically. No one is smart enough to plan entire economies. The Fed can barely keep inflation on the rails by playing with interest rates. At least wait till significant portions of the economy are fully automated to start fantasizing about revolutions.