news Europe's economies are shrinking & its people are scapegoating minorities in response

[Worm]

38 minutes ago, Communion said:

This theory fails given the presence of numerous far-right European nations who see little immigration and took no refugees from the Middle East. What influx of migrants pushes countries like Hungary to fascism?

 

Imagined fears of migrant invaders by Americans shows racist paranoia. Imagined fears of migrant invaders by Europeans shows racist paranoia. It's completely odd you're fine acknowledging one of these things and not the other. 

 

Immigrants are not your enemy. You don't have to be afraid of them. 

 

25 minutes ago, igninton said:

Honey the only theory here is you thinking Europe is one big country when most countries are polar opposites that have completely different issues, politics and interests. Comparing Hungary with Ireland or Spain to Estonia is as if I were to compare Canada with Argentina or Venezuela with the US... it makes no sense.

 

What in my statement made you think I am afraid of immigrants? Outside of your failure to try and twist my words... this is what I said in my post:

 

I can only speak for myself tho and perhaps people in the country I live in, but I cannot speak for other nations just as I assume you can't speak for other nations in your continent.

 

I know that you think anything outside of America (as in, the misleading name you give to your country, not the actual continent which is what we know for America) everything in Europe, Africa and Asia should be the same but... do you see now how you're making a fool of yourself or are we going for one more round?

Not this being one of the most logical discussions (from both sides) I've seen on atrl in a long time

 

If I was to chime in, I guess I would encourage Communion to remember that two European countries can pass identical anti-immigration policies for very different reasons and it can be difficult to unpack the nuance of that, particularly when the true motivations behind a piece of legislation are rarely made transparent. Since the tweets in the OP were about France in particular, maybe it's worth considering the types of evidence that would persuade you that the motivations there were not fascist/anti-immigrant and were instead about national security, as Igninton is (I think) trying to? Is there any decisive evidence that would convince you, when it's always possible to argue that the actual motivations were fascist and the security justifications are just a cover for that? If not, it might be worth acknowledging that your own viewpoint suffers from some similar difficulties of substantiation and considering how best to tackle that. 

And for Igninton, I think I would just give a gentle reminder that the historical precedent of minority scapegoating in times of economic hardship and the emergence of unambiguously fascist ideologies in some European countries both increase the burden of proof on you to argue that similar anti-immigration policies enacted in France/Germany are not similarly motivated. So again, it might be worth thinking about how to shore up your own evidence and whether any of it can be pointed to as particularly decisive to substantiate your viewpoint. 

 

(Please don't come for me for butting in, I'm just giving my 2¢ (that no one asked for ))

[rzal]

6 hours ago, Chemist said:

I work in this stuff and it's true, globalization now means that products produced in Europe simply cannot compete with the cheap stuff coming from China/US, even after taking into account import/transportation costs.

 

Manufacturing will slowly die in Europe and the economy will be a services economy only + some agricultural products (which are being killed by climate change anyway )

 

So we're gonna be poor? 

[VOSS]

They’ll blame immigrants, they’ll blame Russia, anyone but their own failed leadership, none of whom seem to have a plan to turn things around.

Edited December 21, 2023 by VOSS

[anti-bitch]

5 hours ago, Communion said:

You believe people who hate gay people so deeply that they want to kill them are actively migrating en masses to places where gay people are accepted? Does that sound like a logical thing that would occur to you?

 

(Another quirk that discredits this theory - many of the most anti-immigrant nations in Europe are not pro-LGBT. It sounds like a religious fundamentalist would fit right in with Eastern European nations where there are no-go zones for LGBT people)

But that's not something they can choose, at least not always. If they are refugees then they will take be taken to whatever safe place, or whoever accept them in. And if they are voluntary immigrants for work, they might go for the country with best economy, basically disregarding the culture. They might align mentally more with Poland on gay or trans rights, but Germany or Sweden are/have been more open to take them in, so they've gone there instead. Poland and Hungary don't take them. And in Belgium, for example, there were school arson attacks recently by a team of Islamic and Catholic extremists who oppose pro-LGBTQ education. And in UK you might have heard of parents in both

Islamic and Christian faith also opposing that. So it's like the fascists in Europe suddenly agree with some of the immigrants or refugees on certain issues when it serves their purpose, but still also want them to go away.

 

And I wasn't saying that being anti-immigrant by default is anything positive. It's just that there should be a way to control who are let in, even if they are refugees, if they are coming with the Sharia law in their head. And now the EU just came up with a new deal on how to distribute migrants more fairly between the countries, but Hungary is opposing it, among other things. So I could see this being a source of internal conflict in Europe for decades to come, where different ideas and values clash. And I mean clash between native people. There's a plenty of people still wanting to keep the continent open, but it's a bit like the situation in US politics rn that young people don't know who to vote for anymore. And most older people lean right unfortunately, so that's what's making the politics seem more closed in than what the people actually are.

[anti-bitch]

12 hours ago, Chemist said:

I work in this stuff and it's true, globalization now means that products produced in Europe simply cannot compete with the cheap stuff coming from China/US, even after taking into account import/transportation costs.

 

Manufacturing will slowly die in Europe and the economy will be a services economy only + some agricultural products (which are being killed by climate change anyway )

 

But making cheap stuff is bad for the climate, so that's a self-destructive path to take. I think Europe's chance is in high tech and sustainable/green tech. They are trying to make fusion power plants in France and Switzerland. It would be like bringing the power of the sun on earth if successful.

[AMIT]

19 hours ago, family.guy123 said:

The global economy is one big pyramid scheme.

Yeah, that's called capitalism. 

[stevyy]

I blame any hardships of today.. on 2 things...

 

1) Corona crisis >> effects are slowly been phased out tho.

2) Russia's war against Ukraine >> discrupting Europe's energy supply. 

 

Number 2 needs to be resolved, otherwise Europe will remain stagnant. OR Germany actually returning to green energy technology... then it could kickstart Europe's recovery as its engine. 

 

I remember how 2 years ago... US media was 100% sure Germany for example would not have any electric power in winter and the economy would collapse. 

 

In the meantime, Germany still enjoys its AAA credit rating. <3

[stevyy]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:17 PM, VOSS said:

They’ll blame immigrants, they’ll blame Russia, anyone but their own failed leadership, none of whom seem to have a plan to turn things around.

well... Germany lost a quarter of its energy supplies once the US (with the help of Russia) blew up NordStream.