news Terrorist attack near the Eiffel tower; German tourist stabbed to death

[ZIVERT]

Rest in Peace to the tourist. This is terrible.

 

29 minutes ago, Weld_E said:

Him being a convert actually proves that the problem is inherently the religion itself and its teachings, so I don’t understand what point some of you are trying to prove…

Many people that convert (to any religion) often do so because of an identity crisis. Converts lack the cultural upbringing and community people raised with the religion have, leading to overcompensation - this opens the door to radicalization, which usually comes from people online. We need to be able to have open and honest conversations about social media and religious radicalization, regardless of what that religious background is. In this case, it's a Muslim convert that is pissed about Palestine, pledged allegiance to ISIS, and thought stabbing a random would help avenge Muslim deaths. This guy is a nut case, clearly 

Edited December 4, 2023 by ZIVERT

[Weld_E]

28 minutes ago, ZIVERT said:

Many people that convert (to any religion) often do so because of an identity crisis. Converts lack the cultural upbringing and community people raised with the religion have, leading to overcompensation - this opens the door to radicalization, which usually comes from people online.

Sure, these others factors play a part too, but to undermine or completely dismiss the role of Islam itself in such radicalization is dishonest and naive. The number of people who commit such heinous actions in the name of Islam is too high for it to not be a big factor in this.

[Communion]

1 hour ago, Weld_E said:

Him being a convert actually proves that the problem is inherently the religion itself and its teachings, so I don’t understand what point some of you are trying to prove…

That you pushback against conservative ideas with progressive ideas, not other conservative ideas.

 

That reformation of religion doesn't occur through abolishing said religion and its practitioners out of existence, but uplifting those who wish to change it from the inside.

 

The man being a convert discredits this framing of Islamic extremism as a foreign entity waiting to destroy Western society the moment the gate is left open by accident.

 

Because if such was true - that Islam is an inherent hatred of the West, but ALSO that a man born into French liberal ideals to non-Muslim parents can still be radicalized online by a combination of his own anxieties and geopolitical issues - this means the actual process of radicalization has little to do with religiosity like people think.

 

If there is some *EXISTENTIAL CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS* happening and (conservative interpretations of) Islam can convert even non-Muslims into Islamic extremism without any prior religiousness, then the West might as well pack up its bags and give up. THAT would be the conclusion essentializing Muslims would ironically lead one to. Or, like that one member finally took ownership of - essentialziing all non-Europeans as prone to violence and closing all borders once and for all, like some want. 

 

....or people can begin to understand religious extremism through a materialist lens and how alienation and atomization become fuel for radicalization, no matter what religion.

 

Basically anyone who isn't a socialist isn't a serious person when it comes to meaningfully deterring people away from extremist interpretations of religion. That you need some kind of material worldview to provide people an actual answer for the very problems they have that so often religion offers itself up as an answer for.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Communion

[Mordecai]

How does this keep happening? It sounds like people on terrorist watchlists and those with related prior convictions should be monitored a lot closer for any conspiracy charges

[The7thStranger]

9 hours ago, Communion said:

but exactly what length of a prison sentence is appropriate for a 19-year-old

This is a very good point, and I think it requires some serious thought. I would argue that intensive, mandatory, and isolated de-brainwashing/reeducation programs and continued, extensive supervision are warranted in such cases. Had the adult stakeholders of Colombine opened their eyes to the severity of what the two would-be shooters were doing and going through, that massacre could have been avoided.

 

Prison isn't going to fix brainwashing or mental illness. But you still need to remove such toxins from society for everybody's safety until it can be confirmed within a reasonable scope that that person is no longer a danger. I think we need to realize a little therapy simply is not enough, especially if you've gone through five years of prison, which has been proven to exacerbate and reinforce negative behavior.

[bad guy]

9 hours ago, Communion said:

For the record, this 2016 article details that he was sentenced to prison for 5 years as a teenager, originally detained and arrested 3 days after his social media activity was discovered:

https://www.leparisien.fr/amp/faits-divers/le-jeune-converti-voulait-passer-a-l-action-04-08-2016-6014345.php

 

From article published today:

I get these are not conversations people want to have, and blaming it on some outside force is what most of ATRL's right-wing members will do (some of us were on this site back in 2014-2016 when people openly called for Syrian refugees to be killed), but exactly what length of a prison sentence is appropriate for a 19-year-old who was originally arrested for radicalized internet activity yet who himself had never actually committed any violence?

 

At what point can migration (born there!) nor religion (not born to Muslim parents, literally converted to Islam out of free will!) no longer be scapegoated and people forced to actually interrogate what inspires people to want to do (objectively bad, wrong) acts of violence in order to actually, materially find a solution to such?

There’s not enough time to go through the flaws of the current state of prison/rehabilitation (especially in the US where profit is involved), but clearly there are failures in the system when someone with such loaded past history still falls through the cracks.

 

Clearly religious radicalization is at play as is violent behavioral issues. If your argument is that prison doesn’t work, fine, but then where should people like this end up? 

[Raptus]

8 hours ago, bleuwaffle said:

Why would you ever let a person with a record of terrorism attempts out of jail? Anyone who wants to take human life does not deserve to walk free.

If they keept him in jail far-left would scream "ISLAMOPHOBIA!"

[Take Me Apart]

12 hours ago, Headlock said:

not ~at all~ a dogwhistle: 

How? Do you even know what a dogwhistle is? I said revisit not abolish. It should be granted as a last resort, otherwise you should have the same citizenship as your parents. Of course you’d still have the right to educate yourself about the country’s values and history and obtain it through official tests. Your friend was talking about trying new policies to fight religious obscurantism, and im sure we can both agree that education is the best way to fight radicalization. And it’s also extremely gratifying to be granted citizenship for a country you love and wish to call yours. It’s personally one of my greatest achievements 

[Dan81]

Who cares? Thousands of babies died in Palestine in just one month and no one says anything talking about hypocrisy

Edited December 4, 2023 by Dan81

[Headlock]

47 minutes ago, Take Me Apart said:

How? Do you even know what a dogwhistle is? I said revisit not abolish.

 

47 minutes ago, Take Me Apart said:

It should be granted as a last resort, otherwise you should have the same citizenship as your parents. 

[Jjang]

On 12/4/2023 at 4:10 AM, Zaram said:

It's the best to just ignore that user. He has always been defending the terrorism attacks like these one way or another - a long time before the palestina vs Israel conflict escalated even more.

and then you have users like yourself defending a genocide that has killed x10 more Palestinian children in 2 months than all children killed in Israel in the last 76 years.