base talk More important for queer history - Vogue vs. Born this way vs. You need to calm down?

[thetea]

not 30 people voting for YNTCD

[Strawberry Bubble]

Vogue by miles

[C_Colstead]

Vogue is the only correct answer. That song brought underground gay culture to the mainstream. It highlighted voguing as an art form, and placed a spotlight on those heavily involved in the scene, like Jose Xtravaganza and Luis Camacho, for example. At the time Vogue was released, queer culture was seen as something "other" and something to be ashamed of. M depicted it as something it is - normal. Also, Truth or Dare deserves a shout-out here given M's explicit portrayal of two men kissing etc, which was near-unheard of at the time. And what's more, she defended and embraced it. It might sound trivial, but you weren't supposed to do things like that back then, because gay people were villified everywhere you went. 

 

 BTW is also important too, but in a much different way. Most of the world had become much more accepting to LGBTQ+ folk around the time BTW was released, but I genuinely think BTW was instrumental in, as one user said here, smashing the last glass wall around pop culture fully embracing the LGBTQ+ community and it becoming the norm for every celeb out there now. I also agree with the comments here that Gaga came back from one of the biggest debuts/peaks ever with a song so unapologetically pro-LGBT, which definitely deserves a shout-out because that certainly would've inspired some LGBTQ+ folk in today's generation to come out. Both songs are gay classics though, undeniably.

 

The other one is nothing but a quick little cash grab.

[Album Leak]

31 minutes ago, C_Colstead said:

Most of the world had become much more accepting to LGBTQ+ folk around the time BTW was released

I agree with your assessment but this point, while true, doesn't necessarily apply to the entertainment industry. What I mean is that in my personal view and from personal experience, pop and celebrity culture around the 2000s had become much less politically charged compared to previous decades, and less pop musicians were actively using their platform for bringing up issues in their songs or otherwise.

 

Gaga came in hot with what she stood for, and continued the legacy of pop stars of previous generations with her theatrics and politics. I think we can attribute the shift in 2010s pop culture and LGBT issues and politics becoming more trending and marketable in pop music to her influence. But, what kind of influence Born This Way as a song had is debatable, and I think the song is just part of the whole package of Gaga's activism and it's influence on pop culture, rather than the song itself being hugely influential or iconic. That's why Vogue is overall more important.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Album Leak

[GagaChina]

vogue >=btw>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[Shaner69]

Yntcd is a a masterpiece. 

 

Vocally snagging your brain without making any impact her mind goes beyond levels achieved by legends of the gay communities. Taylor wins this result. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Shaner69

[John Slayne]

you set taylor up lmao

[ErnieSwift]

I know people like to paint YNTCD as Taylor trying to pander, but why do people seem so eager to forget that when the video was released, it included a link to a petition to pass the Equality Act?

[spree]

6 minutes ago, ErnieSwift said:

I know people like to paint YNTCD as Taylor trying to pander, but why do people seem so eager to forget that when the video was released, it included a link to a petition to pass the Equality Act?

so copying and pasting a link is supposed to mean something?

[Leppie]

Not 33 people voting for you need to calm down. What the actual ****

[MadOnHer]

Easily Vogue.

[Marry The Gods]

I enjoy both Vogue and Born This Way. I can't explain enough how much of a powerful impact these two songs have over the lgbtq community. The You Need To Calm Down sneak 

[JoeAg]

I understand why many would say Vogue, but I think Born This Way did a bit more

 

the cultural significance of Vogue is great because of how it spotlit queer ball culture, a beautiful thing which was underground beforehand. however, it isn't as specific with its inclusive touchstones in terms of lyrics. for example, everyone mentioned in the rap is straight and white other than Marlene Dietrich, Marlon Brando, James Dean, Katharine Hepburn, and Rita Hayworth. that always kinda bothered me honestly? I feel like she could've added some more diversity idk, maybe that's a minor complaint but still. don't get me wrong, it's a great, timeless song with a lot of importance in the course of queer history, and the performances highlighting queer POC were undeniable and stunning

 

Born This Way feels like a whole different beast though. she actively brings in terms which were controversial in the era of Don't Ask, Don't Tell. she lets us know that political figures need to be listening. she lets us know that it's okay to be any part of the queer community. mentioning trans people and bisexual people and gay people and outcasts... like it's straightforward and endlessly meaningful. she did NOT shy away from any of the backlash, she didn't care! she stood for what we believe in, and she stood up for all of us. that was such a wild time for queerness in popular culture because TV shows and movies were beginning to have more amazing and less stereotype-heavy queer characters, and since then we've only gone onwards and upwards. Born This Way felt like it heralded that. granted, in terms of how it sounds, it's definitely not among my favorites of its parent album, but its lyrics are undeniable and have aged incredibly well. I personally think Hair was the better unapologetically queer empowerment anthem on that album, but Born This Way did what it needed to do, and has been written in history books for how it pushed the conversation to further annals of culture, worldwide.

 

I think Born This Way has an accessibility and poignant lyrics which trump those of Vogue. if we're going by which I listen to more, lol, Vogue would win that. but that's not the point of the thread. the point of the thread is queer history, and Born This Way wins for sure 

 

You Need to Calm Down exists I guess

[JoeAg]

Born This Way is the definition of intersectionality too, I feel like that should be considered. it gave intersectionality a new critical collective listener: the GP

[stevyy]

Vogue is probably one of the ten best tunes ever made. It's such a classic. It's my favourite Madonna song. I would put it in my alltime top 10. 

[Bacardo Royale]

 

 

[Titanbaddie]

Vogue as a song and video was a cultural moment that towers far above the other two at the time where it was actually a radical statement to be that queer in your art. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Titanbaddie

[dejmieeen]

Reporting this thread for not being serious. How can you say this forgotten meme song YNTCD in somewhere close to the other two ICONIC songs?

[Fitzswiftie]

Y’all really included the musical equivalent of rowdy straight bachelorette parties at gay bars in with two classics?

[skizzo]

Vogue and it aint even close

 

YNTCD and BTW I always found cringy. Both have so much better songs in their discography.

Edited December 6, 2023 by skizzo

[Marianah Adkins]

21 hours ago, ErnieSwift said:

I know people like to paint YNTCD as Taylor trying to pander, but why do people seem so eager to forget that when the video was released, it included a link to a petition to pass the Equality Act?

Girl….it does not match to what Vogue and BTW did (which is the question of this thread).

The two aforementioned songs were released at the time when LGBT rights were barely recognized (or not at all for Vogue).

The other one was released when LGBT rights have become more acceptable to the mainstream. It didnt push any envelope (typical for her). 

[ImpressMeMuch]

21 hours ago, ErnieSwift said:

I know people like to paint YNTCD as Taylor trying to pander, but why do people seem so eager to forget that when the video was released, it included a link to a petition to pass the Equality Act?

.... that is indeed pandering, performative and was a hollow act

[Joyride]

Firework

[Xtripped]

Vogue sweetie..

[AaronBryceSufjan]

put aside the topic, remember when Taylor was accused of hetwashing for Lavender Haze tease