poki Posted November 30, 2023 Posted November 30, 2023 (edited) https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hanukkah-celebrations-cancelled-havering-gaza-b2456088.html Havering Council in east London has said it would be “unwise” for the traditional menorah, a nine-branched candelabrum lit during the eight-day Jewish holiday, to be installed outside Havering Town Hall in Romford. It said going ahead could “risk further inflaming tensions within our communities”. Edited November 30, 2023 by Hey Dude
Cameltoe Chariot Posted November 30, 2023 Posted November 30, 2023 I wish Jewish people would realize that Israel is weaponizing their identity and culture in order to commit their crimes, and the only way to remedy this is to reject zionism wholly. And before anyone comes for me, of COURSE anti-semitism transcends Israel, of course there are anti-semites out there regardless of what Israel does in the world. But you can't deny that Israel using Jewishness as a shield is not contributing to the rise in hate crimes against Jews. This is what happens when you allow a nation to weaponize identity and culture. Eventually everyone will blame the culture, and not the country and the men who run it. 3 1 1 8
Cameltoe Chariot Posted November 30, 2023 Posted November 30, 2023 17 minutes ago, SadGirl said: victim blaming was quick this time Care to elaborate?
Gui Blackout Posted November 30, 2023 Posted November 30, 2023 38 minutes ago, Cameltoe Chariot said: I wish Jewish people would realize that Israel is weaponizing their identity and culture in order to commit their crimes, and the only way to remedy this is to reject zionism wholly. And before anyone comes for me, of COURSE anti-semitism transcends Israel, of course there are anti-semites out there regardless of what Israel does in the world. But you can't deny that Israel using Jewishness as a shield is not contributing to the rise in hate crimes against Jews. This is what happens when you allow a nation to weaponize identity and culture. Eventually everyone will blame the culture, and not the country and the men who run it. And I wish non-Jewish people would stop excusing antisemitic attacks on diaspora Jews because of Israel. 8 1 1
SadGirl Posted November 30, 2023 Posted November 30, 2023 Just now, Cameltoe Chariot said: Care to elaborate? No group of people should be targeted for their religion and or ethnicity. Throughout history Europe was an extremely hostile place for Jews and they should work harder to eliminate antisemitism. Israel and what it does is not an excuse.
Cameltoe Chariot Posted November 30, 2023 Posted November 30, 2023 7 minutes ago, Gui Blackout said: And I wish non-Jewish people would stop excusing antisemitic attacks on diaspora Jews because of Israel. 1 minute ago, SadGirl said: No group of people should be targeted for their religion and or ethnicity. Throughout history Europe was an extremely hostile place for Jews and they should work harder to eliminate antisemitism. Israel and what it does is not an excuse. Thanks for proving my point sistren! Already on the offensive and trying to paint what I said as an anti-semitic dog whistle or victim blaming. All I did was point out cause and effect. How many times has this display gone up in East London without incident in the past? Why are tensions so much higher? Could it possibly have to do with hostility towards Israel and their crimes being redirected by the Israeli government towards Jewish people? Could it have something to do with the fact that Israel has spent every second since it's inception convincing the world that Israel = Jewishness? The U.S. House of Representatives passed a resolution equating anti-Zionism with antisemitism just the other day. 412 voted yes, 1 voted no (R-KY Thomas Massie), and the one present vote was from Rashida Tlaib who has been silenced for speaking in defence of Palestine. This is EXTREMELY F**KING DANGEROUS and if we continue to allow this authoritarian stranglehold to happen more and more people are going to be convinced that to be a Jew is to be an Israeli. And that is not good. 1
ugo Posted November 30, 2023 Posted November 30, 2023 maybe keep it about anti semitism and the menorah
SadGirl Posted November 30, 2023 Posted November 30, 2023 2 minutes ago, Cameltoe Chariot said: Thanks for proving my point sistren! Already on the offensive and trying to paint what I said as an anti-semitic dog whistle or victim blaming. All I did was point out cause and effect. How many times has this display gone up in East London without incident in the past? Why are tensions so much higher? Could it possibly have to do with hostility towards Israel and their crimes being redirected by the Israeli government towards Jewish people? Could it have something to do with the fact that Israel has spent every second since it's inception convincing the world that Israel = Jewishness? The U.S. House of Representatives passed a resolution equating anti-Zionism with antisemitism just the other day. 412 voted yes, 1 voted no (R-KY Thomas Massie), and the one present vote was from Rashida Tlaib who has been silenced for speaking in defence of Palestine. This is EXTREMELY F**KING DANGEROUS and if we continue to allow this authoritarian stranglehold to happen more and more people are going to be convinced that to be a Jew is to be an Israeli. And that is not good. documentation of antisemitic incidents in the UK dates back to...well, ever since Jews existed in the UK. if you care about eliminating antisemitism you shouldn't care about the motive behind it. 3 1 1
GraceRandolph Posted November 30, 2023 Posted November 30, 2023 This is probably a good thing. I don't like religion encroaching on public life, it should be private. 2
Communion Posted November 30, 2023 Posted November 30, 2023 Even more evidence of the pain and instability Israel's existance causes. Reminds me of Christian figures saying in Palestine that Christmas celebrations will have to be canceled this year due to the Israeli occupation forces' shelling and bombardment 1 3
SadGirl Posted November 30, 2023 Posted November 30, 2023 6 minutes ago, Communion said: Even more evidence of the pain and instability Israel's existance causes. Reminds me of Christian figures saying in Palestine that Christmas celebrations will have to be canceled this year due to the Israeli occupation forces' shelling and bombardment Because antisemitism began in 1948, right? also the post literally says “in solidarity with Gaza” (fair enough) but no mention of bombardment in Bethlehem 2
Cameltoe Chariot Posted November 30, 2023 Posted November 30, 2023 3 minutes ago, SadGirl said: Because antisemitism began in 1948, right? also the post literally says “in solidarity with Gaza” (fair enough) but no mention of bombardment in Bethlehem Hmm... that's two posts you've disagreed with that are critical of zionism, and twice now that you've referenced pre-50s anti-semitism Why is criticism towards Israel so triggering for you? 1
SadGirl Posted November 30, 2023 Posted November 30, 2023 Just now, Cameltoe Chariot said: Hmm... that's two posts you've disagreed with that are critical of zionism, and twice now that you've referenced pre-50s anti-semitism Why is criticism towards Israel so triggering for you? I'm just tired of people justifying antisemitism, that's all 1 1
Abracadabra Posted November 30, 2023 Posted November 30, 2023 2 hours ago, Cameltoe Chariot said: I wish Jewish people would realize that Israel is weaponizing their identity and culture in order to commit their crimes, and the only way to remedy this is to reject zionism wholly. And before anyone comes for me, of COURSE anti-semitism transcends Israel, of course there are anti-semites out there regardless of what Israel does in the world. But you can't deny that Israel using Jewishness as a shield is not contributing to the rise in hate crimes against Jews. This is what happens when you allow a nation to weaponize identity and culture. Eventually everyone will blame the culture, and not the country and the men who run it. I agree that an increase in hate crimes is an unfortunate reality in the reaction to recent events, but I don't think this type of rhetoric would be used to justify or explain hate crimes against any other religious group in these circumstances. If there is an increase in hate crimes against Muslims after a terror attack committed supposedly in the name of their religion, anybody saying "Well this is what happens when..." would be widely and rightfully condemned. There is no justification for acts of hate being committed against Jewish people, you can passionately disagree with Israel and what they are doing without blaming Jews for hate crimes being committed against them, considering many Jews don't even agree with Israel's actions in the first place. To say "the only way to remedy this is to reject zionism wholly" is pretty short sighted too, as do you really think that anybody who is going out to violently attack Jews is going to stop them first and ask "Are you Jewish or are you Jewish and also a zionist?", that doesn't matter to them, they just want to harm Jewish people. 2 2
Cameltoe Chariot Posted November 30, 2023 Posted November 30, 2023 4 minutes ago, Miichael said: I agree that an increase in hate crimes is an unfortunate reality in the reaction to recent events, but I don't think this type of rhetoric would be used to justify or explain hate crimes against any other religious group in these circumstances. If there is an increase in hate crimes against Muslims after a terror attack committed supposedly in the name of their religion, anybody saying "Well this is what happens when..." would be widely and rightfully condemned. There is no justification for acts of hate being committed against Jewish people, you can passionately disagree with Israel and what they are doing without blaming Jews for hate crimes being committed against them, considering many Jews don't even agree with Israel's actions in the first place. To say "the only way to remedy this is to reject zionism wholly" is pretty short sighted too, as do you really think that anybody who is going out to violently attack Jews is going to stop them first and ask "Are you Jewish or are you Jewish and also a zionist?", that doesn't matter to them, they just want to harm Jewish people. I appreciate your response, but I feel like my words are being misinterpreted... not on purpose, but definitely because of the passion people have about this subject (and rightfully so!). When I said "the only way to remedy this is to reject zionism wholly" I didn't mean "the only way to remedy antisemitism"; I was speaking about remedying the work Israel has done to equate zionism with judaism to non-Jews. I wasn't hinting that antisemitism is the fault of Jews in the slightest, but I'm also not surprised that pro-Israeli users are twisting my words... maybe without even realizing they are. All I was pointing out is that there has been a sharp increase in tension between Jews and Muslims in the west, and that this is both because of straight up antisemitism but ALSO because of how Israel has used Jewish people all over the world as human shields for their state. I was pointing out that there are a LOT of non-Jewish people that have bought into Israel's lies and there are both antisemitic groups and zionists working to make sure people think Judaism = Zionism, but for very different reasons. Israel needs this connection to justify their crimes, and antisemites want this connection to justify their hate. Anyway not trying to start a fight, just trying to clarify my thoughts.
Abracadabra Posted November 30, 2023 Posted November 30, 2023 1 hour ago, Cameltoe Chariot said: I appreciate your response, but I feel like my words are being misinterpreted... not on purpose, but definitely because of the passion people have about this subject (and rightfully so!). When I said "the only way to remedy this is to reject zionism wholly" I didn't mean "the only way to remedy antisemitism"; I was speaking about remedying the work Israel has done to equate zionism with judaism to non-Jews. I wasn't hinting that antisemitism is the fault of Jews in the slightest, but I'm also not surprised that pro-Israeli users are twisting my words... maybe without even realizing they are. All I was pointing out is that there has been a sharp increase in tension between Jews and Muslims in the west, and that this is both because of straight up antisemitism but ALSO because of how Israel has used Jewish people all over the world as human shields for their state. I was pointing out that there are a LOT of non-Jewish people that have bought into Israel's lies and there are both antisemitic groups and zionists working to make sure people think Judaism = Zionism, but for very different reasons. Israel needs this connection to justify their crimes, and antisemites want this connection to justify their hate. Anyway not trying to start a fight, just trying to clarify my thoughts. I don't mean to twist your words, and I don't think saying that there's no valid reasoning for hate crimes against Jews makes someone pro-Israel, like I said in my previous post, there are many Jews who aren't pro-Israel and aren't zionists and they will also be victims of these hate crimes. I understand that you are acknowledging the difference between rejecting zionism and antisemitism and I'm not suggesting otherwise, but your original post I quoted also reads like "Well, hate crimes are to be expected unless Jewish people do x, y, z", despite the fact that the vast majority of Jewish people are no more responsible for what is happening in Palestine than you or I. I just don't think that type of standard would be placed on any other religious group. Whether or not Israel or zionism is contributing to the rise in hate crimes, Jewish people all around the world still have a right to live without fear of persecution as do Palestinians. Also not trying to start fights or heated debates, I think we're just coming to the topic with slightly different viewpoints and examining the difference.
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