discussion More gay men are starting to vote for Right-wing parties to feel "safe" in Europe.

[Embustera]

1 hour ago, Pendulum said:

He looks like a tokkie  

 

 

He is a Tokkie. A few years ago I had a discussion with him on Facebook. He made some disgusting comments about black people. 

[Embustera]

And why the hell did he vote for PVV. Wilders is definitely not an ally to the gay community

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Embustera

[Wolf Alice]

6 minutes ago, Embustera said:

He made some disgusting comments about black people

I'm sure some users here will tell you that actually black people did something to him and that's why he's acting that way.

 

But maybe just maybe some people just hate people that don't look like them and find excuses to demonize entire groups of people. Seems more plausible to me.

[Take Me Apart]

The girlies are tiredddd of Islam

[wastedpotential]

I certainly wouldn't make the same choice, but I can certainly understand why some might. The math is pretty simple: far right parties hate gays and immigrants, but gays are broadly more societally supported in most (Western) European countries than immigrants are, so if/when these far right parties come to power, their stances on gays will be moderated by their need to cooperate within the electoral system and to try and broaden their support amongst the general electorate, and immigrants are an easier target with wider societal distrust. Geert Wilders probably hates gays almost as much as he hates immigrants, but he knows that the average Dutch voter and the other parties he will inevitably join into a coalition with, are far more islamophobic than they are homophobic. Plus, it's a lot easier for him to argue to the masses in 2023 "oh, these people aren't from here so they don't belong", than it is for him to say "these people who grew up in the same village as their great great great great grandparents don't belong here, because they're gay". You can see that rhetoric on the fringes and in the christian movements, but it's not nearly as palatable or popular. 

 

The calculation is obviously different regarding trans people given lower levels of societal support or gay people of color caught in the middle, but for a "white gay" (still a majority of the lgbt electorate) it's not logically incoherent to make this choice. Gays feel more threatened by some immigrant groups than they do the far right, and the far right would rather go after these immigrant groups anyway. It's not a long-term electoral pivot, but it works for them, for the time being. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by wastedpotential

[HeavyMetalAura]

Edit: nvm I deadass don’t have the energy to argue with y’all

Edited November 29, 2023 by HeavyMetalAura

[Яeo.]

1 hour ago, Domination said:

It’s kind of weird how some of y’all can’t accept that anecdotal lived experiences influence people more than grander stories of progress. I don’t agree with the conclusion being reached here but marginalized people flocking to hardline conservative policies that counter whatever force they feel threatened by is a tale as old as time.

Wow, you wrote and summarized it pretty nicely. Care to elaborate more on this perspective?

[Into The Void]

1 hour ago, SlowGinFizzzz said:

Is anyone really surprised? I've heard that in my own (definitely more left- than right-leaning) social circle too, and to a degree it definitely lines up with my own personal experiences: yes, I'm aware that conservatives/right-leaning people don't particularly like me as a gay man either – but the times I've been verbally assaulted, spat on or pushed, it was never one of them, but rather people with Arab/muslim heritage. Not to mention that a lot of women too are reporting they don't feel safe outside by themselves anymore, especially at night. At one point you just have to pick the lesser evil, and for an increasing number of people that seems to be right-wing parties. 

its sad people vote for right wing because of their own safety 

[Raptus]

5 minutes ago, Insanity said:

its sad people vote for right wing because of their own safety 

 

You never saw hierarchy of human needs, huh? Feeling safe is the most important need  after food/water

 

[PennywiseTheClown]

I didn't vote for Wilders, but The Netherlands does have an immigration problem and the times me and my boyfriend have been intimidated, harrassed or even once assaulted it was by a certain demographic. I'm a left voter but the truth is the left parties in NL are turning a blind eye to some very real issues in this country, and their ignorance opened the door for far right politicians like Geert Wilders. I suppose this is the case for other countries in Europe too

[Jack!]

Firstly, gays aren't immune to being bigots. Secondly, I have to laugh at the rhetoric that the left-wing are the enablers when it comes to religion and refugee immigration. The UK has been a hub for illegal immigration in Europe for years and we've had a right-wing government for the last 13 years.  And despite what they want people to believe with their extremist views on trying to restrict immigration, they want asylum seekers here and know they need them here because they fill in essential lower payed jobs that they're teaching white Briton's in schools that they're too good/privileged to do.

 

Right-wing leaders know how to coo people into believing this idea they're for the people. I feel sad for anyone gullible enough to fall for it. Or, actually, maybe I don't.

[Into The Void]

24 minutes ago, Raptus said:

 

You never saw hierarchy of human needs, huh? Feeling safe is the most important need  after food/water

 

thats not what i meant 

[Distantconstellation]

3 hours ago, gatito said:

lemme guess they’re mostly white aren’t they

Well its Europe so what did u mostly expect them to be?

[Komet]

1 hour ago, Flanders said:

Denmark is a country that has been able to balance this out in a way that has become very popular with the gp even though they have a left wing/centre government

Yes, Denmark's SD is often brought up as a left party that's not brain dead. Along with critizicing mass imigration, they literally moved more to the left from neoliberalism, and yet they've been in the majority ever since. 

[Horizon Flame]

4 hours ago, gatito said:

lemme guess they’re mostly white aren’t they

It’s Scandinavia. What do you think?

[Horizon Flame]

3 hours ago, woohoo said:

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again…all regions are absolute garbage used to brain wash the masses with their fictional little story books. Banning it worldwide would solve at least half the problems. 

Communism is evil and doesn’t work. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Horizon Flame

[ugo]

I don't even see why this is an issue. Gay people are a minority even if they vote right it does not matter. What matters the most is that the gp already switched a while back..

[Alaska.]

It's either voting for fascists who will turn against you after they win the elections, or vote for the left that allows mass immigration of other extreme conservatives

 

The other day I was seeing conservative mulisms protesting in France over LGBT teaching in schools and then comes an (ex?) muslim attacking them because he left the country to stay away from those extremists. Those poor guys can never find peace now

[Hurem]

The sooner the left admits they ****** up with their immigration policies, the easier will be to fix the damage. Leftists need to stop labeling everyone a fascist who calls out how bad the migration issue has been handled.

[PinkLamborghini]

Meh, gays are not a political monolith. Vote for who you want, idgaf.

[Communion]

42 minutes ago, Hurem said:

The sooner the left admits they ****** up with their immigration policies, the easier will be to fix the damage. Leftists need to stop labeling everyone a fascist who calls out how bad the migration issue has been handled.

Claims like these are incoherent because there is no universal immigration policy amongst any global left, let alone that some of the most far right countries, especially in Europe...don't have immigrants! And largely haven't for decades! Things can't be a reaction to something when there is nothing to react to!

 

Hungary has no-go zones for LGBTQ people yet about less than 1% of those living within Hungary are not Europeans! Hungary is an ethnostate! It is literally homogenous! There can't be a blowback to a diversity that does not exist!

 

And yes, the Netherlands is not Hungary. It is diverse....for Europe, but any claims of "mass migration" are not real.

 

65%+ of all migration into the Netherlands on a yearly basis is other Europeans. Those 35% of other migrants? 40% of them will have left the country in 3 years time. That number jumps to 60% after 10 years. 

 

The last time I asked such, I got people who grew up in villages where everyone was the same ethnicity telling me to kill myself but yet 20+ pages and 5+ threads later, not a single user has ever posted a specific immigration policy in their country they were unhappy with and how they specifically wanted the law changed. 

[Harrier]

I would never vote for a right wing party, but the left's willfull blindness about Islamic homophobia is a genuine problem and is the source of this shift. Literally cannot talk about it without handwaving it away or whatabouting to Christians. But this issue is more acute and serious than Christian homophobia, esepcially outside of the United States.

 

I have worked in a school with a majority Muslim population and it very much felt like the frontlines of a cultural battleground. Students boycott anything LGBT related by not turning up to school and parents have sent the school threats over things like Purple Day. I've had to handle a nonbinary student being relentlessly bullied and disrespected by others in their class, students accusing one another of being gay as an attack, and students questioning me about my private life in an accusatory way. As a teacher I took steps to stay in the closet in these spaces because it's just not safe for us, let alone for the the LGBT students. When my time there was up I honestly felt relieved.

[family.guy123]

Spreading propaganda on Atrl in an attempt to villainize white gays and it worked like a charm. Don’t know which part is worse 

[Hurem]

2 hours ago, Communion said:

65%+ of all migration into the Netherlands on a yearly basis is other Europeans. Those 35% of other migrants? 40% of them will have left the country in 3 years time. That number jumps to 60% after 10 years. 

Sheesh, when you put it like that it sounds as if there are close to none non-European ethniticities in The Netherlands.

 

You may try to gaslight people into thinking that everything’s fine, that people are being duped by right wing propangda or whatever you’re trying to claim, but the fact of the matter is that people don’t like what’s going on in their countries and culture clash is a big problem in Europe.

[Communion]

54 minutes ago, Hurem said:

Sheesh, when you put it like that it sounds as if there are close to none non-European ethniticities in The Netherlands.

I mean... there really isn't! The Netherlands is diverse for a European nation, but its diversity is eclipsed by countries like America and Canada.

 

The largest non-European ethnic minority has been a group largely living there since the 60s! What meaningful policy agenda does Wilders offer about Moroccan migrants who came over 3 generations ago to help build things?

 

I have no clue of your background and am simply referencing users I've had relevant discussions with, but the oddity in some of ATRL's biggest defenders of Europe's anti-Muslim rhetoric having Berber or similar backgrounds is that, despite making rightful [!] criticisms of mistreatment during Islam's spread across the MENA region, many then co-sign the European far-right... who literally hate them no differently than they also hate Muslims/Arabs!

 

It's like... when European nationalists start shouting "No more Moroccans!!!" or "No more Syrians!!!", I'm not sure they're particularly interested in the nuances of said countries' history and are going to suddenly add "...except for the non-Muslim ones! We love that diversity!" to that chant. See:

 

Anyways, the next three largest non-European populations are literally groups part of the Dutch's colonial history! Not really seeing an invasion!

 

75% - Ethnic Dutch

~6.4% - Other EU Nationals

2.4% - Turks

2.4% - Moroccans/Berbers

2.0% - Surinamese 

2.0% - Indos/Moluccans

~0.9% - Antilleans

~0.7% - Syrians

~0.50% - Americans/Canadians/Australians

~0.48% - Chinese

~0.39% - Iraqis

~0.37% - Indians

~0.31% - Afghans

~0.30% - Iranians

 

54 minutes ago, Hurem said:

You may try to gaslight people into thinking that everything’s fine, that people are being duped by right wing propangda or whatever you’re trying to claim, but the fact of the matter is that people don’t like what’s going on in their countries and culture clash is a big problem in Europe.

What country do you live in and which migration policy is currently in place that you disagree with? Genuinely curious!

Edited November 30, 2023 by Communion