news Far-right PVV (anti-Muslim, anti-LGBT) becomes largest party in Dutch Parliament

[VOSS]

Anti-LGBT you say?

 

[Cain]

2 hours ago, Communion said:

 

I saw someone claim that the head of VVD said in a radio interview that she'd be open to working with PVV, exactly right before they started to increase in polls.

 

Is this true? @Chemist I saw the same perosn claim she eventually walked it back, but that's a more plausible reason than "PALESTINE PROTESTS!!111". 

This is true, Wilders’ win is a result of 12 years of the VVD ruining this country with their neoliberal agenda, only caring about rich multinationals being stationed in the country and chipping away at housing, education and healthcare. The country wanted a party that’s more outspoken than the VVD but Wilders was always a wildcard, when the head of the VVD said they would be open to working with him that suddenly legitimatised him for a lot of people that were now willing to vote for him

 

The people (rightfully) wanted and needed change. It’s just too bad the average person is dumb as **** and would rather believe ‘immigrants are the cause of all my problems’ than actual policy that’s been implemented over the years 

 

Geert Wilders will do absolutely nothing for them, but they don’t know that yet. In the meantime I’m really concerned for all of my poc and especially Muslim friends as it will get even harder for them than it already was

[Cain]

18 minutes ago, Emperor said:

So he is anti Islam , this is an excellent news for dutch and LGBT 

 

They are lucky , us in France have to wait 2027 before the far right can finally end this terrorist religion 

Yes they really care about you  their policy will definitely benefit your rights 

[beautiful player]

He's not really anti-LGB (trans/nonbinary-critical, yes), and he's not really far-right either. The American-centric left can't fathom being left-wing and progressive but anti-immigration and anti-Islam at the same time. You cannot apply those American Democrat paradigms to local European politics. 

 

I did not vote for him, but I can absolutely empathise with those that did. The left/centre-left parties performed embarrassingly poor in their campaigns and seemed completely out of touch with the concerns of the people . Hopefully this is the shake-up that the Dutch left needs to reprioritise their political platforms.

[State of Grace.]

22 minutes ago, beautiful player said:

being left-wing and progressive but anti-immigration and anti-Islam at the same time.

[ClashAndBurn]

1 hour ago, beautiful player said:

left-wing and progressive but anti-immigration and anti-Islam

These things are genuinely at odds with each other. There's nothing "progressive" about being opposed to immigration and Muslims as a whole

[Kassi]

1 hour ago, State of Grace. said:

Well. It’s definitely possible. Bernie is a good example of that. 
 

He worked with insurrection co-signee Chuck Grassley to block Pelosi’s immigration reform in 2008, which would have alleviated some of the pressures on our current, outdated system.

 

 

 

Yet people claimed he was “progressive”. 

[beautiful player]

29 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

These things are genuinely at odds with each other. There's nothing "progressive" about being opposed to immigration and Muslims as a whole

It's called the Paradox of Tolerance. 

[Luckitty]

if europeans don't want immigrants and refugees from the middle east then they should tell america and israel to **** off and stop destroying the middle east

 

european countries happily stand aside and do nothing while america destroys MENA then they act shocked when the people whose countries are destroyed flee to europe... did europe forget that the middle east are their neighbors and that instability in the middle east will also reflect in europe? but i guess european governments are willing to sacrifice their own stability in order to not anger america

Edited November 23, 2023 by Luckitty

[KOMH]

Did not see this coming in the Netherlands of all places. At one point I would've thought it was the most immigrant friendly country in Europe. Scary times are upon us. 

[jesus del rey]

Why fascist parties win wherever I go?

[Bosque]

Not surprising that when the established parties are gaslighting everyone that 0 problems exist with immigration and contributing to housing crises all over Europe, that people will vote for new parties who promise to fix those issue (whether they can do so or not) rather than the parties that created the problems in the first place. 

[Illuminati]

11 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said:

These things are genuinely at odds with each other. There's nothing "progressive" about being opposed to immigration and Muslims as a whole

Populists tend to have contradicting policies and I think he falls into the category while still maintaining certain progressive policies because Europe in general is less divided on progressive topics like climate change than the US (I don't actually know what his/their progressive views are but I assume it's something mild and bare minimum that everyone agrees on).

 

And while I'm disappointed, I'm not surprised it took so little for him to convince the majority. Every contrarian on ATRL was very easily swayed towards accepting Trump as the lesser evil because Biden's evil policies are more recent, it's like people never look at a bigger picture. Even your own views towards Ukraine and Palestine are at odds with each other but here you are.

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Illuminati

[Cloudy]

Spain still hanging on, the saving grace of Europe iktr 

[Monster Megamind]

12 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said:

These things are genuinely at odds with each other. There's nothing "progressive" about being opposed to immigration and Muslims as a whole

People from India or China are integrating well with western values then why aren't Muslims able to do so. The right wing hasn't woken and randomly begin to be anti Islam. They obviously saw a shift in culture from previous liberal values after immigration. Not to forgot the fiscal burden because of refugees.

[A.R.L]

I totally agree with the point of canceling all the religious places and signs in any secular country, but it’s also sad that this had to come this way, unfortunately the left has given many opportunities for these hateful people to grow. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by A.R.L

[SlowGinFizzzz]

On 11/23/2023 at 10:39 PM, beautiful player said:

The American-centric left can't fathom being left-wing and progressive but anti-immigration and anti-Islam at the same time. You cannot apply those American Democrat paradigms to local European politics. 

This is such an important point! Many people are seemingly failing to understand that while the average voter will of course support "left-wing" positions like a strong social welfare state, good education for everyone, progressive labour laws, trade unions, women's rights, LGBT rights, they will also look critically at 1. immigration, especially after 2015 and especially from muslim cultures, and 2. Islam in general, on the one hand because Islam tends to be more radical and ideologically driven than any other major religion in 2023 and on the other hand simply because experience has shown that muslims tend to be less motivated – and therefore less likely in general – to integrate into western societies. And of course, people are tired of being tolerant when that tolerance ultimately only fuels intolerance.

 

If anything, it's surprising that "the left" haven't figured that out yet, aside from some exceptions like the Danish Social Democrats, or the party Sahra Wagenknecht is currently building in Germany. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by SlowGinFizzzz

[Capris Groove]

4 hours ago, SlowGinFizzzz said:

This is such an important point! Many people are seemingly failing to understand that while the average voter will of course support "left-wing" positions like a strong social welfare state, good education for everyone, progressive labour laws, trade unions, women's rights, LGBT rights, they will also look critically at 1. immigration, especially after 2015 and especially from muslim cultures, and 2. Islam in general, on the one hand because Islam tends to be more radical and ideologically driven than any other major religion in 2023 and on the other hand simply because experience has shown that muslims tend to be less motivated – and therefore less likely in general – to integrate into western societies. And of course, people are tired of being tolerant when that tolerance ultimately only fuels intolerance.

 

If anything, it's surprising that "the left" haven't figured that out yet, aside from some exceptions like the Danish Social Democrats, or the party Sahra Wagenknecht is currently building in Germany. 

Beautifully put. The collective minimising of the 2015–16 New Year's Eve sexual assaults in Germany was when I first saw the tide begin to turn in any meaningful way. Gaslighting your constituents can only work for so long ("nothing to see here") and if you've been paying attention, people are beginning to be less afraid of being called racist or Islamophobic. The left needs to think empirically or else it's at their own peril: this is a major issue and it's not going away.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Capris Groove

[Communion]

On 11/23/2023 at 4:39 PM, beautiful player said:

The American-centric left can't fathom being left-wing and progressive but anti-immigration and anti-Islam at the same time.

 

4 hours ago, SlowGinFizzzz said:

This is such an important point! Many people are seemingly failing to understand that while the average voter will of course support "left-wing" positions like a strong social welfare state, good education for everyone, progressive labour laws, trade unions, women's rights, LGBT rights, they will also look critically at 1. immigration, especially after 2015 and especially from muslim cultures, and 2. Islam in general,

Both of your vast racist post histories, especially against non-white immigration into Europe, would be easier to ignore if the entire argument of "of  course people can be pro-LGBT AND anti-immigrant" was not based on the defense of PVV "not being anti-gay" with this as the only argument of how:

Quote

He's not really anti-LGB (trans/nonbinary-critical, yes),

Not suddenly being fine with nazis who think your sexuality makes you pedophiles just because too many kebab shops are showing up!

[Letemtalk]

On 11/24/2023 at 12:30 PM, Luckitty said:

if europeans don't want immigrants and refugees from the middle east then they should tell america and israel to **** off and stop destroying the middle east

 

european countries happily stand aside and do nothing while america destroys MENA then they act shocked when the people whose countries are destroyed flee to europe... did europe forget that the middle east are their neighbors and that instability in the middle east will also reflect in europe? but i guess european governments are willing to sacrifice their own stability in order to not anger america

All of the arms making countries that sell weapons to the middle east are helping cause this.

This includes the US, Russia, UK, France and many others.

 

Russia, who supports many of these far right groups, is responsible for quite a large part. Putin directly supported Assad while he carried out crimes against his own people in Syria. Most of Europe didn't care until Syrian refugees started arriving.

 

The US on the other hand, was too busy supporting Saudi war crimes in Yemen and right now they are helping Israel create thousands more refugees in Gaza. Most of these counties simply see the middle east as a profit centre, where bombs falling on people in the MENA region can help their economies, with no consequences back home.

 

When there are problems with refugees, the European right wing wins again, because they have someone to blame for everything. Just like the 1930s, but a different scapegoat.

 

Quote

The US government, specifically, is willing to close its eyes on the atrocities committed by governments if they are reliable importers of US-made war-making machines.

Quote

During the 43-month Saudi-imposed blockade on Qatar that began in 2017, US major arms exports to both sides increased substantially, elevating tensions in the regions further.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/middle-east-arms-sales-us-top-supplier

 

Some of those arms exported by the US are then re-exported to non-state armed groups and the US continues to sell to those countries.

 

Quote

Other cases of transfers to armed groups and conflict parties have reportedly involved states ignoring the end-user assurances they provided when they originally acquired the arms. The UAE, for instance, re-exported self-loading rifles it had purchased from Bulgaria to Libyan and Yemeni armed forces between 2011 and 2016. Saudi Arabia and the UAE also reportedly re-exported United States-manufactured armoured vehicles to non-state armed groups engaged in Yemen.  

https://www.sipri.org/commentary/topical-backgrounder/2022/arms-transfer-and-salw-controls-middle-east-and-north-africa-challenges-and-state-play

Edited November 25, 2023 by Letemtalk

[Pendulum]

The real Nazi in Dutch politics is Thierry Baudet's FvD, not Wilders  

[Luckitty]

12 hours ago, Letemtalk said:

All of the arms making countries that sell weapons to the middle east are helping cause this.

This includes the US, Russia, UK, France and many others.

 

Russia, who supports many of these far right groups, is responsible for quite a large part. Putin directly supported Assad while he carried out crimes against his own people in Syria. Most of Europe didn't care until Syrian refugees started arriving.

 

The US on the other hand, was too busy supporting Saudi war crimes in Yemen and right now they are helping Israel create thousands more refugees in Gaza. Most of these counties simply see the middle east as a profit centre, where bombs falling on people in the MENA region can help their economies, with no consequences back home.

 

When there are problems with refugees, the European right wing wins again, because they have someone to blame for everything. Just like the 1930s, but a different scapegoat.

 

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/middle-east-arms-sales-us-top-supplier

 

Some of those arms exported by the US are then re-exported to non-state armed groups and the US continues to sell to those countries.

 

https://www.sipri.org/commentary/topical-backgrounder/2022/arms-transfer-and-salw-controls-middle-east-and-north-africa-challenges-and-state-play

Exactly, if europeans want to fix the refugee/immigration problem they need to fix the root cause of the issue 

 

banning refugees/immigrants (or sending them to rwanda) is not gonna help because they can enter illegally anyways

[Samsara]

On 11/24/2023 at 6:51 AM, ClashAndBurn said:

These things are genuinely at odds with each other. There's nothing "progressive" about being opposed to immigration and Muslims as a whole

They are particularly anti-Muslim for obvious reasons. They seem to have no issues with other races/religions. For instance, there’s a high demand for Filipino healthcare professionals and other skilled workers in Europe.

[Anthinos]

On 11/25/2023 at 12:09 AM, SlowGinFizzzz said:

This is such an important point! Many people are seemingly failing to understand that while the average voter will of course support "left-wing" positions like a strong social welfare state, good education for everyone, progressive labour laws, trade unions, women's rights, LGBT rights, they will also look critically at 1. immigration, especially after 2015 and especially from muslim cultures, and 2. Islam in general, on the one hand because Islam tends to be more radical and ideologically driven than any other major religion in 2023 and on the other hand simply because experience has shown that muslims tend to be less motivated – and therefore less likely in general – to integrate into western societies. And of course, people are tired of being tolerant when that tolerance ultimately only fuels intolerance.

 

If anything, it's surprising that "the left" haven't figured that out yet, aside from some exceptions like the Danish Social Democrats, or the party Sahra Wagenknecht is currently building in Germany. 

I agree with you, but I have to disagree on one point. I think there are a lot of voters who are actually very right wing. Anti-LGBT+, anti-women, racist etc. I always hear that these right-wing parties will disappear as soon as left-wing parties or the center-right parties take care of the immigration issue. But in many countries they are already doing this and yet the right has not really collapsed, in Austria it has even grown stronger. The culture war is real and it is not just about immigration. For many, for example, the LGBT+ community is also a problem. I think it's naive to believe that these are all just frustrated voters. Many of these voters are actually on the right and the right is getting stronger worldwide. As a gay man, I find this shift to the right scary and dangerous. I think we are far too uncritical of the right. People talk more about the "woke" (who don't win elections anywhere) than about right-wing extremists. I also take a critical view of immigration from such cultures, but I do find it worrying that people vote for very right-wing, sometimes far-right parties. As someone here has already said, we have to see the big picture. Left-wing parties need a new positive and optimistic vision

[Sannie]

On 11/22/2023 at 8:18 PM, Joyride said:

Very scary, seems like the far-right is winning all across the globe

True except for, ironically, the US. We have a lot of far-right people, but they have not been winning elections since 2018.

 

I guess it is because the US lived through it and then realized it was a mistake. Maybe these countries falling for the propaganda will realize it before it is too late.

This is all based on immigration. People are afraid of these countries opening their borders. It is racism.

 

On 11/23/2023 at 6:49 AM, Take Me Apart said:

Whatever, Von Der Leyden will block any of his attempt to do anything too drastic, especially concerning immigration. The neoliberal EU desperately needs its low-wage immigrants to function.

 

Just look at Meloni’s Italy. Us gays will suffer regardless of who wins

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