poll is it finally time to admit Taylor has surpassed Madonna?

[Cruel Summer]

3 minutes ago, kimberly said:

paying $15 for a single album and dropping $5.99 on Spotify premium + Hulu is not the same. 

 

now, I'm not one of those people that say "pure sales" are more important because well, it's just not how we consume music anymore. but comparing Taylor's numbers to Madonna's is like comparing a Netflix movie to a 90's blockbuster. it's just not the same. and it's not directly comparable.

I guess my main point is that it's the only real comparison that we have, and that it's made because it's the best objective way to compare across time (even with its limitations and flaws). It all comes down to money spent by consumers and consumer interest - because the way consumers express intent has changed so significantly over time, we must compare in ways that are limited and don't encompass all the nuances of a complex market.

 

This is a difficult discussion all around, and I would be the last person to leap to concluding that Taylor has already surpassed Madonna in almost any way, besides maybe in US-specific conversations. But I have to take issue when some members act like streams are essentially worthless, or pull out the "we didn't count how many times you listened to a CD" card. Like, things change, and to have any discussion at all, we have to find some kind of common ground, some level-set definitions so that everyone understands each other across generations and fandom lines. That's why I'm so defensive of album-equivalent units, generally speaking - because what else do we really have?

[mons†er]

Can Taylor Swift have anything without you people on this forum trying to question her career by comparing her to everyone else in the music industry?  like you either like the woman and her music or you don't. please let this girl thrive in her accolades and let others thrive in theirs. 

[Sabrina Carpenter]

“tAyl0R wilL bE fOrgotTeN iN 5 YeARs” 

 

keep saying it until it becomes true i guess 

[JaXXXon]

4 minutes ago, Dephira said:

Considering that Taylor is literally the last artist who still sells albums at USD 15, and outsells most other popular artists like Drake and Bad Bunny by a factor of 100 (literally), I'm not sure this is the drag you think it is 

Some day you Swifties will have to grow up and learn that when the only ones defending and claiming these nonsensical things are the Swifties themselves and you have a gazillion of people who mock you for it there's probably something wrong with you, not everyone else. 

 

Madonna sold $15 albums without the need of extra special color-build-a-clock special cassettes and signed violet-brown vinyls and CDs bought four times by each fan who then adds more "units" by streaming the album five times a day at home because they don't have a record player. And she had like a Blank Space from most of her albums without the need to discount it and remix it during every era. And she didn't have markets around the world where she struggled to break records like Taylor has. 

 

And yes, that is the drag you think it is. 

[SLUTTVFTV]

I bet in 40 years there will be a thread like this one asking if [insert new-ish mega popular artist] has surpassed Taylor 

and the replies will all be like "oH tHeY cOuLd nEveR bEaT TaYLor's lEgAcY" and "hEr cULtUraL imPacT is uNmAtCheD"

 

Taylor and Madonna are great artists, and they always will be. Madonna is an amazing artist, and her discography has only become more acclaimed with time. I hope the same for Taylor, and I love both of them! 

[Bosque]

Just now, JaXXXon said:

Some day you Swifties will have to grow up and learn that when the only ones defending and claiming these nonsensical things are the Swifties themselves and you have a gazillion of people who mock you for it there's probably something wrong with you, not everyone else. 

 

Madonna sold $15 albums without the need of extra special color-build-a-clock special cassettes and signed violet-brown vinyls and CDs bought four times by each fan who then adds more "units" by streaming the album five times a day at home because they don't have a record player. And she had like a Blank Space from most of her albums without the need to discount it and remix it during every era. And she didn't have markets around the world where she struggled to break records like Taylor has. 

 

And yes, that is the drag you think it is. 

Honey this is embarrassing  trolling is supposed to be funny at the very least, even when it is not believable 

[JaXXXon]

1 minute ago, Dephira said:

Honey this is embarrassing  trolling is supposed to be funny at the very least, even when it is not believable 

I seriously suspect half of you to be success stans because you only seem to care if Taylor is the next _________ (insert legend) instead of just enjoying her music. 

[kimberly]

10 minutes ago, Dephira said:

Considering that Taylor is literally the last artist who still sells albums at USD 15, and outsells most other popular artists like Drake and Bad Bunny by a factor of 100 (literally), I'm not sure this is the drag you think it is 

it's not a drag, but I don't think you had any good intentions responding to me anyway.

 

Taylor is the best-selling artist today and Madonna was her times'. it's just not a comparison that makes sense. 

 

5 minutes ago, Cruel Summer said:

I guess my main point is that it's the only real comparison that we have, and that it's made because it's the best objective way to compare across time (even with its limitations and flaws). It all comes down to money spent by consumers and consumer interest - because the way consumers express intent has changed so significantly over time, we must compare in ways that are limited and don't encompass all the nuances of a complex market.

 

This is a difficult discussion all around, and I would be the last person to leap to concluding that Taylor has already surpassed Madonna in almost any way, besides maybe in US-specific conversations. But I have to take issue when some members act like streams are essentially worthless, or pull out the "we didn't count how many times you listened to a CD" card. Like, things change, and to have any discussion at all, we have to find some kind of common ground, some level-set definitions so that everyone understands each other across generations and fandom lines. That's why I'm so defensive of album-equivalent units, generally speaking - because what else do we really have?

I think that's all fair to say. stuff like this isn't ever scientific anyway -- even things like "album equivalent units" and "Billboard Hot 100" formula are arbitrarily chosen to best represent the cultural zeitgeist. 

[Elusive Chanteuse]

1 hour ago, RobynYoBank said:

A few years from now Taylor will surpass MJ and The Beatles and people will still be trying it with Madonna and Britney Spears 

Isn’t it possible she may become over exposed and have reduced sales in the future? I can’t see her passing Michael Jackson.  

[Cruel Summer]

Just now, JaXXXon said:

I seriously suspect half of you to be success stans because you only seem to care if Taylor is the next _________ (insert legend) instead of just enjoying her music. 

This is only because you have never earnestly engaged with her work in a way so as to talk about the actual music with fans that enthusiastically like it. There are countless pages across ATRL of her fans just talking about her albums, how we interpret them, what they mean to us, what our favorites are, all the way down to the minutiae of how the guitar sounds in the opening of 'Tis The Damn Season or how the first vocal note of Holy Ground (Taylor's Version) is slightly different than that of the original and how that sets a different tone for the song. Like, her success is awesome, don't get me wrong, but the music very clearly comes first and foremost for most of us. You just happen to interact with Swifties in threads where success is integral to the topic. 

[WildHeart]

4 minutes ago, JaXXXon said:

I seriously suspect half of you to be success stans because you only seem to care if Taylor is the next _________ (insert legend) instead of just enjoying her music. 

We all can see your 134 posts. As Dephira said, trolling is supposed to be funny

Edited October 29, 2023 by Artistofthedecade

[Bosque]

2 minutes ago, kimberly said:

it's not a drag, but I don't think you had any good intentions responding to me anyway.

 

Taylor is the best-selling artist today and Madonna was her times'. it's just not a comparison that makes sense. 

 

I think that's all fair to say. stuff like this isn't ever scientific anyway -- even things like "album equivalent units" and "Billboard Hot 100" formula are arbitrarily chosen to best represent the cultural zeitgeist. 

"paying $15 for a single album and dropping $5.99 on Spotify premium + Hulu is not the same"

 

these were your exact words. People are happy to pay USD 15 for a single one of Taylor's albums (in fact they are happy to pay USD 40 for her vinyl), whereas they only drop USD 5.99 on Spotify to listen to her contemporaries. These are facts. 

 

I'm sorry that you just realized your own post made no sense, but that's really not my problem at all 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Dephira

[45seconds]

1 hour ago, =NEX= said:

Then why most of the biggest selling albums of all time are from the 70s and 80s and 90s? 

 

Early 00s simply had the biggest first week sales due to a changing nature of marketing penetration. 

 

Also, are you implying that Madonna was peaking at a worse sales climate than Taylor?

 

Besides, comparing sales unit for unit is pointless. Taylor has several blockbuster albums that had insane longevity on charts, way above any average for a hit album in this day and age. I don't think Madonna had that many, if any. A lot of classic albums from that era are still charting to this day.

 

Let's also not forget that Taylor is literally charting her entire discography in many countries across the globe. Her level of chart success is truly unprecedented. If we're talking raw numbers she's already the biggest ever or at least in the Beatles league of domination and mania.

 

Impact and influence is topic for another discussion. Swifties are downplaying her success most of the time not to seem cocky.... but whew... it's out of this world 

One more time: album sales did NOT peak in the 80s. Album sales peaked in 1999. This isn’t opinion. 

[Antikythera]

No, they are different. Taylor is huge, but super safe.

 

Madonna was huge by taking risks. Just the whole Erotica/Sex book era is a wildley different way of making art than what Taylor does. And this goes for other works like Like a Prayer, Ray of Light, American Life, Confessions Tour. She goes into touchy subjects.

 

Taylor thing is the everyday crush, romance, and "normal" accepeted and very general themes. She is never singing about being someone who enjoys a little bit of pain, she doesnt have video showing mutilated kids while depicting the US military as a fashion show. 

 

The most out there moment for Taylor was the Reputation song and the whole dissing and the concept the old Taylor is dead. But this is just TMZ stuff.

 

Madonna on the Confessions Tour was in a cross simulating Jesus to talk about orphoned children of HIV parents then she had to man representing Jews and Muslims during a song called Forbidden Love. This is being an artist!

 

 

[kimberly]

Just now, Dephira said:

"paying $15 for a single album and dropping $5.99 on Spotify premium + Hulu is not the same"

 

these were your exact words. People are happy to pay USD 15 for a single one of Taylor's albums (in fact they are happy to pay USD 40 for her vinyl), whereas they only drop USD 5.99 on Spotify to listen to her contemporaries. 

 

I'm sorry that you just realized your own post made no sense, but that's really not my problem at all 

and the same people that buy 4 vinyl copies of her album to "make a clock" don't even open them and listen to her music on Spotify anyway...

 

music consumption is in a much different state right now. there is no direct comparison between Madonna's and TS's numbers -- but you know it already. I won't be engaging with you further.

[SleepNoMore]

Absolutely not.  Sales figures are one thing, but Madonna’s consistent trailblazing and envelope pushing actually changed the landscape of music, and created the template for modern divas that continues today.  Her legacy and cultural impact will never be equaled regardless of anyone’s purely financial success breaking $ records. 

[wulmite]

what really matters is that thee legend Ava Max will end both of them

 

[Adivnoir]

1 hour ago, Punky Rooster said:

How exactly? The sales aren't there, the absolute game changing music and visuals aren't there, the creativity isn't there, the risk taking and evolution isn't there, the groundbreaking live performances aren't there, she isn't a fashion icon even though she has worn beautiful gowns...

 

Sure, people are listening to Taylor a lot at the moment, but people also listened to Madonna a lot too, it just wasn't recorded - she sold hundreds of millions of albums full of tracks that have probably been listened to many many billions of times, but we can't tell.

This. 
 

I really think we need to stop comparing artists of today to artists of yesterday. 
 

the way we measure our music consumption is so drastically different that it really doesn’t make any sense to have conversations like this about an artist that peaked when casette tapes/CDs were the primary method of consumption. 
 

i think Taylor Swift is an incredible business woman and really needs to be admired for that. Her music industry moniker works for her because it’s true. But as an artist and performer and overall icon she really comes up short in so many ways. But her numbers are “real” and that’s where the conversation should start and end for her. 
 

just my two cents. 

[bijonse]

Taylor is still behind her in both sales/consumption and cultural relevance. She will eventually surpass her in popularity but not in influence and impact ever bc she’s brought nothing new to the table. Great numbers though beautiful numbers 

Edited October 29, 2023 by bijonse

[SignificantOther]

Taylor Swift is like the female Garth Brooks: huge sales by appealing to middle America but no impact whatsoever.

[Sweetness]

1 hour ago, Sebastián Muñoz said:

I think that this comparison would make even Taylor herself start laughing. 

I'm a swiftie, but she is only as big as Madonna in the U.S. It is really frustrating for me because I know Taylor has very impressive numbers and a significant cultural presence, but in my country, it's challenging to prove that to people because she isn't as prominent here. Madonna's fame is global, and Michael Jackson is the absolute pinnacle in music history. I adore Taylor and her music, but she belongs to a different generation of artists, and I believe it's impossible to replicate the idols of the past. 

 

 

May I ask what country are you from? I agree Taylor has passed Madonna in the states but globally it's something different.

 

 

 

[Lana Banana]

I’m only replying to the title of this thread not any or the replies:

 

You must be ******* stupid to even assume that TS will ever reach the fame of Madonna through 1980-2010. 

Sure you have your Taylor receipts right now, if the same was available during Madonna’s decades - you wouldn’t even be able to follow, let me put it that way. 
 

Stop comparing newbies to veterans (in comparison). Quote me on this in 30 years. 

 

[worldwide angel]

what is this obsession with trying to upstage literal legends. the answer is and will always be no. 

madonna paved the way for a taylor to be successful and madonna's impact goes beyond breaking record sales. 

 

[Machete]

Honey that “time” was 2 years ago. She’s aiming for MJ right now. To quote Cher: “what is a MDNA?”.

[Goaty]

We’re doing this thread every time Taylor releases something new, aren’t we?