discussion Trans conservatives vs Trans liberals - Messy Jubilee debate

[Lyrica]

The way they did all the tricks in video editing to disregard Blaire and she still WON, whew  she makes it look TOO easy

[Chaos Angel]

Blossom really needs to do better  

[abelfenty]

Omg Blossom was SO unbearable. Putting words in other people’s mouths, using the race card multiple times, constantly talking over everyone  The fact that she had to AUDACITY to say Blaire was disconnected from reality when it was Blossom who was spouting nothing but utter nonsense 

Alexander was also a complete moron too 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by abelfenty

[awesomepossum]

18 hours ago, Bloo said:

Freedom of Speech has nothing to do with having your voice promoted on a giant platform.  

 

Freedom of Speech does not entitle you to being featured on Jubilee. It means the government won't arrest you for sharing an opinion—specifically one that is critical of the government.

So what? I'm not saying that if Jubilee did not feature people with these views that it would be a violation of their right to free speech. But to do so on the basis of 'correcting misinformation' is not really possible, as I have already demonstrated with the example of Twitter banning people for spreading 'misinformation' (which turned out not to be misinformation) about where covid originated. The only way to discover what the truth even is is through open dialogue. So it's an impossible task. It's not about the 'right' to free speech, but the value of it. And, yes, the best articulation of that idea is in Mill, who I referenced earlier. Really, I've explained my position several times now and at this point you're just choosing not to get it.

Edited October 10, 2023 by awesomepossum

[Bloo]

1 hour ago, awesomepossum said:

So what? I'm not saying that if Jubilee did not feature people with these views that it would be a violation of their right to free speech. But to do so on the basis of 'correcting misinformation' is not really possible, as I have already demonstrated with the example of Twitter banning people for spreading 'misinformation' (which turned out not to be misinformation) about where covid originated. The only way to discover what the truth even is is through open dialogue. So it's an impossible task. It's not about the 'right' to free speech, but the value of it. And, yes, the best articulation of that idea is in Mill, who I referenced earlier. Really, I've explained my position several times now and at this point you're just choosing not to get it.

Comparing a social media platform like Twitter to a small panel of curated personalities that is then edited in post… is so illogical. 

[awesomepossum]

5 minutes ago, Bloo said:

Comparing a social media platform like Twitter to a small panel of curated personalities that is then edited in post… is so illogical. 

No it isn't, you just don't understand what's being said. I'm comparing deciding what is true and false and censoring on that basis, with deciding what is true and false and censoring on that basis. I am comparing like with like. I'm talking about the capacity to discern what is true and what is false. 

[Bloo]

Just now, awesomepossum said:

No it isn't, you just don't understand what's being said. I'm comparing deciding what is true and false and censoring on that basis, with deciding what is true and false and censoring on that basis. I am comparing like with like. I'm talking about the capacity to discern what is true and what is false. 

When the Jubilee example that kickstarted exchange was about flat earthers vs. scientists, I think the truth is pretty straightforward to get to. Frankly, adopting a strong postmodernist mindset can be very dangerous because then you leave everything up to question—even things that should be non-negotiables like equality.

 

So, no, I get your point. My argument is that it’s dangerous to engage in forced “balance” for the optics of neutrality when you’re discussing extremely sensitive subjects.

[CokeDestroyer]

I used to be friends w a trans woman (marie if u r reading this u still owe me 50 usd RYN ME MY CHECK.) and she eventually fell down the right pipeline and the context of her conclusions relative to what i know about her personal life story and trauma has been eye opening

 

Not saying shes smart tho her takes are Bad™️

[PoisonPill]

On 10/8/2023 at 6:09 PM, TaggedGalaxy said:

“Trans conservative” is such an oxymoron 

 

How? What about being transgender is incompatible with conservatism? Or do you mean the American Republican Party?

[PoisonPill]

On 10/8/2023 at 6:31 PM, wulmite said:

What business does a trans women have being conservative? Baby, they still want you dead, like... what's not clicking? 

I think you’re confusing “conservative” with “US Republican Party”

[PoisonPill]

On 10/9/2023 at 3:35 AM, SecretSecret said:

 

It's not just that conservatives are against trans rights, and if you're trans and support them you're acting against your own basic interests, as other posters already pointed out. You can't coherently be a trans conservative because conservatives don't recognize transness as a reality in the first place. They may tolerate it, but it's always going to be an abnormality for them.

 

Your transness and the ideology you defend, at least when we're talking about gender issues, aren't really separate. The moment you declare yourself as trans, and decide to live as a trans person, you are deeming valid certain "progressive" values, and contradicting conservative ideas. Trans conservative is an oxymoron not because it's dumb to side with the people who hate you, but because your whole existence is already a contradiction of those conservative values. If these people really embraced conservatism, they'd never have transitioned, as they would believe that there is only man and woman, and there's nothing you can do to change that.

The number of massive generalizations and assumptions in this single post

[Brooklyn Baby]

1 hour ago, PoisonPill said:

I think you’re confusing “conservative” with “US Republican Party”

I don't think some people know the difference. And that's not shade but people always lump all conservatives with being Republican

[Headlock]

1 hour ago, PoisonPill said:

I think you’re confusing “conservative” with “US Republican Party”

Because conservatives in other nations love trans people… oh wait 

[Bloo]

2 hours ago, PoisonPill said:

How? What about being transgender is incompatible with conservatism? Or do you mean the American Republican Party?

Let's go to the definition:

Quote

con·serv·a·tive 

/kənˈsərvədiv/

adjective

1. averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values.
2. (in a political context) favoring free enterprise, private ownership, and socially traditional ideas.

There is nothing traditional in a heteronormative society. Being transgender, in and of itself, (implicitly) is a rejection of the traditional gender roles much of Western society is organized around.

[PoisonPill]

48 minutes ago, Bloo said:

Let's go to the definition:

There is nothing traditional in a heteronormative society. Being transgender, in and of itself, (implicitly) is a rejection of the traditional gender roles much of Western society is organized around.

“Conservative” is not one big catch-all word, it has myriad definitions depending on the culture, society and context. For instance, many small government conservatives were/are pro marriage equality and are against any government interference in someone’s private life. The attorney who won the marriage equality Supreme Court case is a staunch conservative who served in the Bush White House.

 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by PoisonPill

[Bloo]

16 minutes ago, PoisonPill said:

“Conservative” is not one big catch-all word, it has myriad definitions depending on the culture, society and context. For instance, many small government conservatives were/are pro marriage equality and are against any government interference in someone’s private life. The conservative attorney who won the marriage equality Supreme Court case was George W Bush’s solicitor general. 
 

Diving into pedantics like this is honestly a silly mental exercise. In the simplest definitions of conservatism, which, yes, do make a pretty flagrant connection to conserving traditional values. The idea of small government is actually a more liberal idea that comes directly from the neoliberal economic theory. Those two things have become entangled over time, but conservatism has always been cared about protecting traditional social norms.

 

Regardless, in the context of a thread discussing an exchange held by conservative vs liberal Americans, why would we adopt the ideological vantage points of other countries? Conservative here is obviously going to refer to the standard and current form of conservatism in America. With that in mind, it is pretty simple to understand why people are going to say being conservative and transgender are at odds with one another.

[JanStan]

Conservative is a relative term. I think most LGBT people would not consider themselves conservative on most issues and only because of the rise of EXTREME leftist ideology are considered conservative on this issue. If anything, it’s self preservation and a pushback against the movement that is literally regressing all the progress that has been made when it comes to gay and trans rights that is being called conservative. That is a more accurate explanation of lgbt ‘conservatives’ imo.

Edited October 11, 2023 by JanStan
Clarification

[hétérosexuelle]

Blaire made points

 

the randomized sim did not 

[Riverbank]

Ugh they should've brought ContraPoints for this. She would've collected Miss Blaire.  

[Bloo]

On 10/11/2023 at 11:40 AM, JanStan said:

If anything, it’s self preservation and a pushback against the movement that is literally regressing all the progress that has been made when it comes to gay and trans rights that is being called conservative.

This is actually just called "unhelpful". Minorities self-policing one another is essentially never helpful. If you are LGBTQ+ and you blame other LGBTQ+ people for being "the reason" we're not accepted by society instead of just shaming anti-LGBTQ+ bigots, then you're part of the problem. This is no different from the self-hating gays on Grindr that make "masc4masc" their entire personality.

[Namie-Knowles]

Not the same notoriously racist and transphobic members liking the same posts throughout the thread 💀

[PinkLamborghini]

1 hour ago, Namie-Knowles said:

Not the same notoriously racist and transphobic members liking the same posts throughout the thread 💀

Your AVI!  Long live the queen! I'd do anything to have her back.

Edited October 13, 2023 by PinkLamborghini

[Headlock]

On 10/11/2023 at 12:40 PM, JanStan said:

If anything, it’s self preservation and a pushback against the movement that is literally regressing all the progress that has been made when it comes to gay and trans rights

You mean… the conservative movement that is doing these things against the LGBTQ+ community? 
Are you seriously suggesting the queer community is… responsible for the fearmongering being perpetuated against them?

[JanStan]

9 hours ago, Bloo said:

This is actually just called "unhelpful". Minorities self-policing one another is essentially never helpful. If you are LGBTQ+ and you blame other LGBTQ+ people for being "the reason" we're not accepted by society instead of just shaming anti-LGBTQ+ bigots, then you're part of the problem. This is no different from the self-hating gays on Grindr that make "masc4masc" their entire personality.

The fact you equate a person stating their preference on a hook up site to self hate tells me all i need to know about you. Have a nice life. 

[Power love]

Blossom is getting dragged hard by literally everybody left or right. 
 

If you go to YouTube or Twitter she’s getting dragged from filth 

 

I hope she’s staying off line