discussion Trans conservatives vs Trans liberals - Messy Jubilee debate

[St. Charles]

13 minutes ago, ninasayers said:

The comment sections for Jubilee videos support the "conservative" sides 95% of the time. 

YouTube comments are kinda conservative leaning by default unless you click on a specifically liberal video, sadly.

[Queen Of Slay]

blaire cleared her so bad omg

 

[Communion]

6 minutes ago, Queen Of Slay said:

blaire cleared her so bad omg

 

It's no longer 2014. 

[shelven]

2 hours ago, Communion said:

Debates are neither informative or educational in this format and Jubilee presenting far right opinions without fact checking is why they're the soft turnstile to the far right pipeline on YouTube and how you get 12 year olds going from playing Roblox to watching Twitch commentators and debate channels going "**** the LGBT!! **** women!!".

I think the breaking point for me on Jubilee's "Middle Ground" format was back when they did a flat Earther vs. round Earther video and basically let the flat Earthers dominate 75% of the video with almost no pushback  It was blatantly obvious all the way back then that Jubilee has zero interest in actually educating people and that they purposely maximize the wrong side's airtime to get outrage/controversy views.

[Terrielle]

Blaire kinda had the girls bothered, I lived im sorry lmao

[barbiegrande]

Both sides gave really stupid arguments.  They pick the dumbest people on the left for these videos 

[Darkgalord]

Blaire ate the girls, sorry. They needed to find more prepared liberal trans to counter Blaire with better arguments. 

I enjoyed this debate and learned a lot from both sides. 

[truthteller]

did they get Caitlyn Jenner or shm/

[Communion]

The people saying "Blaire ate!!" when within the first five minutes, her only argument is:

 

"I'm 100% not saying not passing means trans people deserve to be discriminated, but.... the girls who get it, get it, and the girls who don't, don't "

 

Masculine cis lesbians have literally been attacked by TERFs within the US and UK for using women's bathrooms and having been assumed to be trans women. Blaire's arguments aren't logical; they're idiotic and ironically hoping the IDPOL part of your brain trusts her #experiences.  

 

There's a reason why she was washed up and nearly ran off of Youtube after spending 3 years harassing another trans woman and accusing her of being a "transtrender" only for it to be revealed Riley Dennis had been undergoing HRT the entire time and Blaire's entire "we can TELL when the dolls are not on hormones!" trans ~radar~ got debunked.

 

She literally had to become the trans Chris Hansen to re-find a following and there's a through-line between "Blaire White helps catch trans predators online for right wing audiences!" to "Christian terrorists threaten to blow up trans healthcare clinics on the idea that trans people are groomers".  

 

And if you don't believe a fellow ATRLer who's followed this cretin for years, listen to a fellow Youtuber who's similarly been aware of Blaire's actions for years:

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Communion

[Hook Up]

Of course Blaire's nasty ass was in attendance

[awesomepossum]

3 hours ago, Communion said:

Debates are neither informative or educational in this format and Jubilee presenting far right opinions without fact checking is why they're the soft turnstile to the far right pipeline on YouTube and how you get 12 year olds going from playing Roblox to watching Twitch commentators and debate channels going "**** the LGBT!! **** women!!".

Lol what? They're one of the only places that actually allows both sides to present their views and try to reach some common understanding. It's sorely needed in today's political climate. I haven't watched this specific episode yet, but I love the Middle Ground series. Even the flat earth one!

[DAP]

Not clicking. Jubilee is to politics as what TheFineBros were to react videos.

 

[Communion]

1 minute ago, awesomepossum said:

Lol what? They're one of the only places that actually allows both sides to present their views and try to reach some common understanding. It's sorely needed in today's political climate. I haven't watched this specific episode yet, but I love the Middle Ground series. Even the flat earth one!

 

1 hour ago, shelven said:

I think the breaking point for me on Jubilee's "Middle Ground" format was back when they did a flat Earther vs. round Earther video and basically let the flat Earthers dominate 75% of the video with almost no pushback  It was blatantly obvious all the way back then that Jubilee has zero interest in actually educating people and that they purposely maximize the wrong side's airtime to get outrage/controversy views.

[awesomepossum]

1 hour ago, barbiegrande said:

They pick the dumbest people on the left for these videos 

That's true, but I think a lot of leftists aren't really prepared to defend their beliefs. Liberal views are, after all, the prevailing cultural norm so leftists aren't used to being challenged, and their ideology is actively hostile to the notion of even providing a counter-argument (rather than just de-platforming or ignoring those you disagree with). There does seem to be a bit of a tide turning so the left better get its act together and learn to present a clear argument and to LISTEN to what the other side is saying. I am hopeful some middle ground can be found on a lot of the divisive issues right now in the US.

[awesomepossum]

2 minutes ago, Communion said:

 

The flat earthers got tons of push back in that video so I don't know what that person is talking about. Whether you like it or not, and as shocking as it may be, there are actually people who think the earth is flat. You're not going to change their minds by acting like they don't exist and refusing to engage. That just allows that sort of thing to fester.

[Communion]

Just now, awesomepossum said:

The flat earthers got tons of push back in that video so I don't know what that person is talking about. Whether you like it or not, and as shocking as it may be, there are actually people who think the earth is flat. You're not going to change their minds by acting like they don't exist and refusing to engage. That just allows that sort of thing to fester.

You know what allows that sort of thinking to fester? Platforming people with those ideas without heavy correction and moderation on a Youtube channel with 8M subscribers. 

[shelven]

4 minutes ago, awesomepossum said:

The flat earthers got tons of push back in that video so I don't know what that person is talking about.

The "pushback" they got was from some overly polite and timid scientists, but my point wasn't even that the people in the video don't push back hard enough - it was mainly that the producers/editors of these videos barely do any pushback. Time and time again, the people on the regressive/ignorant side of the debate are given tons of time to express their views and those views are framed by the video as "just another opinion" that the people on the other side are "disagreeing" with. The little pop-up facts that appear at the bottom of the screen throughout these videos very rarely provide forceful enough fact-checking and sometimes they even actively encourage the misinformation by trying to "neutrally" show where the ignorant people are getting their (wrong) information from. And the videos very often cut off conversations with the ignorant side getting the last word before the video moves on to the next question, even if their last word was incredibly misleading or inaccurate.

 

Jubilee's approach to these debates is the exact same approach we've seen from mainstream news media sources in the Trump era - the idea that for a media organization to be "neutral" and "unbiased", it has to give equal credence to both sides of the debate, even if one side is far more immoral and/or objectively inaccurate than the other. But an actual lack of bias would mean calling out misinformation and destructive positions, even if (and especially if) that's coming more from one side than the other. 

 

But ultimately, like I said in my last post, Jubilee is doing all of this for clicks just like any other YouTube channel. They know that their videos will get circulated more on social media and their comment sections will be more active if they elevate the people peddling misinformation and harm than they'd get if they actually attempted to educate their viewers on which side was more grounded and well-supported.

[Superbitch]

Why do trans conservatives even exist?? They want you DEAD hunty. 

[Mr. Blue_Shirt]

2 hours ago, ninasayers said:

The comment sections for Jubilee videos support the "conservative" sides 95% of the time. 

This is what happens when a platform like Jubilee always hires professional media-trained right-wing pundits for the conservative side to spew the talking points to millions of people

 

I remember when Jubilee did the teacher vs. conservative parents, and one of the parents was literally the PragerU CEO but somehow she presented herself as a "concern parent". It's so disingenuous

[Sawk]

IJBOL, im a progressive (slightly liberal) and the conservatives ate the liberals up, like it was embarassing for them… 

 

Also, not sure why people are saying being a trans conservative is impossible, anyone can be conservative in the same vain anyone can be a liberal, when you try to add people’s intrinsic characteristics to a whole movement, you’ve lost the narrative. It’s specially apparent when you look at the newer Latino demographic in U.S. which is increasingly becoming more conservative as time goes on, a failure of the dems. These blue states think that just because their voters are minorities, that these same people will always vote blue and because of that, the dems do bare minimum for their people; many younger Latino Gen Z and Gen Alpha is gravitating toward the cringey redpill sh*t and Andrew Tate talking points and that is NOT good for us.
 

If we (I’m assuming most ATRL agrees we are pretty liberal or progressive) want to truthfully engage with the arguments to tackle them head on, we can’t go attacking people based on their beliefs that might seem contradictory to their characteristics, it’s very limiting to assume every trans person has to be a lib, every latino has to be a lib, every redneck has to be conservative, every catholic has to be conservative, like ppl are not monolithic and we can get more progress when we engage with what people are actually saying vs. what they are or identify with. 

[dumbsparce]

Why is it so surprising that there are conservative trans people? There's more to a person than their gender identity. If their life as a trans person is normal, there's little reason to overlook the rest of their beliefs and side themselves with the left. By assuming every trans person should be liberal, you're literally putting them in yet another box. Just let people be.

[réveuse]

4 hours ago, Post Malone said:

Trans conservative. 

[Communion]

18 minutes ago, Sawk said:

IJBOL, im a progressive (slightly liberal) and the conservatives ate the liberals up, like it was embarassing for them… 

 

Also, not sure why people are saying being a trans conservative is impossible, anyone can be conservative in the same vain anyone can be a liberal, when you try to add people’s intrinsic characteristics to a whole movement, you’ve lost the narrative. It’s specially apparent when you look at the newer Latino demographic in U.S. which is increasingly becoming more conservative as time goes on, a failure of the dems. These blue states think that just because their voters are minorities, that these same people will always vote blue and because of that, the dems do bare minimum for their people; many younger Latino Gen Z and Gen Alpha is gravitating toward the cringey redpill sh*t and Andrew Tate talking points and that is NOT good for us.
 

If we (I’m assuming most ATRL agrees we are pretty liberal or progressive) want to truthfully engage with the arguments to tackle them head on, we can’t go attacking people based on their beliefs that might seem contradictory to their characteristics, it’s very limiting to assume every trans person has to be a lib, every latino has to be a lib, every redneck has to be conservative, every catholic has to be conservative, like ppl are not monolithic and we can get more progress when we engage with what people are actually saying vs. what they are or identify with. 

This rhetoric feels unintentionally misleading when this was Latinos under the age of 45 in 2020:

 

 

Supporting a socialist who calls for the elimination of private insurance isn't "conservatism".

 

"Trans conservative" is mocked as an idea because it's a material contradiction due to conservatism being inherently anti-trans under capitalism.

 

Of course people can be material contradictions if they have another reality separate from their status as a minority (like being affluent like Blaire who hates poor people) or tricked into hating another group of people first. 

 

But often you see cohorts form around these shared material realities because that's what drives people's understanding of their lives. If you're poor and don't have healthcare, you'll reasonably want to have healthcare. If you're LGBTQ and your life and safety is threatened, you'll want to feel safe. 

 

Conversations about a "diversifying GOP" are meaningless if they don't recognize that the "diversifying" is worsening living conditions that see the poorest of Americans become non-voters, disproportionately hurting Democrats who have been the party of choice for poor people, POC, queer people, etc. for a century. The right is less-so gaining people than the left ("left" for Dems) are losing its base to disillusionment.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Communion

[Sawk]

1 minute ago, Communion said:

This rhetoric feels unintentionally misleading when this was Latinos under the age of 45 in 2020:

 

 

"Trans conservative" is mocked as an idea because it's a material contradiction due to conservatism being inherently anti-trans under capitalism.

 

Of course people can be material contradictions if they have another reality separate from their status as a minority (like being affluent like Blaire who hates poor people) or tricked into hating another group of people first. 

 

But often you see cohorts form around these shared material realities because that's what drives people's understanding of their lives. If you're poor and don't have healthcare, you'll reasonably want to have healthcare. If you're LGBTQ and your life and safety is threatened, you'll want to feel safe. 

 

Conversations about a "diversifying GOP" are meaningless if they don't recognize that the "diversifying" is worsening living conditions that see the poorest of Americans become non-voters, disproportionately hurting Democrats who have been the party of choice for poor people, POC, queer people, etc. for a century. The right is less-so gaining people than the left ("left" for Dems) are losing its base to disillusionment.

I don’t disagree with most of what you’re saying btw

 

I mostly acknowledge that IF you are part of a minority group, it does make sense to vote for democrats because out of the two options, they will most likely cater to the needs of minorities, that is true, but I’m glad you mentioned the part about the contradictions in someone’s reality, specially money. 
 

When it comes to money issues and the economy, that’s the influencing factor that usually can separate people that belong to a minority group from that group because they value independence and freedom that tends to come with becoming wealthy. A lot of issues that are separated by race, sexuality, and gender are becoming more and more meaningless to me because I’ve seen that most stark difference between people and their beliefs when it comes to social class; under a capitalist society like the U.S., class has become the forefront issue that weighs heavily in the decision of what people vote for. 
 

To also add, I definitely think that the Dems losing people because of disillusionment is a VERY big problem that hasn’t been talked about enough, apart from obvious things like gentrification which drives people out of their homes and stuff like red lining and gerrymandering, what could we do in your opinion to have people go out to vote more?

[AMIT]

You've already posted another thread platforming this dumb, clickbait rag of a YouTube channel and many people then pointed out it's flaws including it being ideologically dishonest with its framing, after which you failed to address any of those people who posted those critiques, correct me if I'm wrong. Do you have anything to say about the critiques in this one or are you going to pretend you don't see them yet again and make another thread whenever this channel uploads the next time?