discussion Canadian Parliament and Zelenskyy give standing ovation to Nazi officer (14th SS)

[ZIVERT]

5 minutes ago, Monday Night Messiah said:

Doing a bit much. Literally nobody is saying that.

There are a few in this thread that are trying to normalize this narrative across other threads 

[Kamil24]

 

Surprised he even said this tbh. 

[Communion]

8 hours ago, Monday Night Messiah said:

Doing a bit much. Literally nobody is saying that.

The embarrassment of having racist grandparents getting to some of these girls and their projection. 

[Genius1111]

 

[Aethereal]

The Nazi/Ukraine phenomena was unknown until Putin decided to invade Ukraine. It was never mentioned before the war started. Most of people who never talked about Nazis in Ukraine before 2022 but do now have an agenda. 

[ClashAndBurn]

1 minute ago, Aristotle said:

The Nazi/Ukraine phenomena was unknown until Putin decided to invade Ukraine. It was never mentioned before the war started. Most of people who never talked about Nazis in Ukraine before 2022 but do now have an agenda. 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary/commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUSKBN1GV2TY

 

Quote

As Ukraine’s struggle against Russia and its proxies continues, Kiev must also contend with a growing problem behind the front lines: far-right vigilantes who are willing to use intimidation and even violence to advance their agendas, and who often do so with the tacit approval of law enforcement agencies.

 

March 19, 2018

 

Putin didn't use the Nazi talking point until last year. Is Reuters a Russian propaganda outlet? Plenty of people back then were willing to call out the Azov Battalion, but now you're rebuked if you ever mention that they're Neo-Nazis. Now they're being given medals of valor at award ceremonies in America. Now Nazi collaborators are applauded in standing ovations in Canadian Parliament.

 

The people like you downplaying Ukraine's systemic problems and the legitimate concerns people have with them also have an agenda. If Ukraine had any care for optics, they'd be purging the Neo-Nazi imagery instead of proudly displaying it and honoring villains like Stepan Bandera as heroes with national holidays.

[family.guy123]

I hope this war criminal is prosecuted for his crimes. Parliament is an absolute joke 

[family.guy123]

Every single member who clapped for him needs to resign.

[Aethereal]

6 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary/commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUSKBN1GV2TY

 

 

March 19, 2018

 

Putin didn't use the Nazi talking point until last year. Is Reuters a Russian propaganda outlet? Plenty of people back then were willing to call out the Azov Battalion, but now you're rebuked if you ever mention that they're Neo-Nazis. Now they're being given medals of valor at award ceremonies in America. Now Nazi collaborators are applauded in standing ovations in Canadian Parliament.

 

The people like you downplaying Ukraine's systemic problems and the legitimate concerns people have with them also have an agenda. If Ukraine had any care for optics, they'd be purging the Neo-Nazi imagery instead of proudly displaying it and honoring villains like Stepan Bandera as heroes with national holidays.

Well if I make a thread about the embracement of Nazism in Palestine that means I have your support? 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world#Arab_incorporation_and_emulation_of_Nazism

 

You've been a member since 2012, do you recall yourself talking about Neo-Nazis in Ukraine (specifically) prior to 2022 in this site?  Yeah, that's what I thought. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Aristotle

[ClashAndBurn]

7 minutes ago, Aristotle said:

Well if I make a thread about the embracement of Nazism in Palestine that means I have your support? 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world#Arab_incorporation_and_emulation_of_Nazism

 

You've been a member since 2012, do you recall yourself talking about Neo-Nazis in Ukraine (specifically) prior to 2022 in this site?  Yeah, that's what I thought. 

I guess we’ll overlook that the Israelis displaced the Palestinians and subject them to constant campaigns of pogroms. Funny how Ukrainian Nazi sympathizers always have to hide behind their love and support for a fundamentally evil apartheid state.  

Edited September 26, 2023 by ClashAndBurn

[Aethereal]

4 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

I guess we’ll overlook that the Israelis displaced the Palestinians and subject them to constant campaigns of pogroms.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

 

And don't add words in my mouth. (for the deleted part) 

[ClashAndBurn]

1 hour ago, family.guy123 said:

Every single member who clapped for him needs to resign.

You’d have an empty Parliament at that point. The West’s whole deal right now is opposing Russia/Putin, so they’re willing to accept anyone who’ll speak out against whomever the current target of Big Brother America is.

[ClashAndBurn]

1 minute ago, Aristotle said:

Thank you for agreeing with me.

 

And don't add words in my mouth. (for the deleted part) 

I absolutely don’t agree with you, that was sarcasm.

 

As for the rest, I mean, there’s a pattern of Ukraine supporters always bringing up Israel.

[Aethereal]

1 minute ago, ClashAndBurn said:

I absolutely don’t agree with you, that was sarcasm.

 

As for the rest, I mean, there’s a pattern of Ukraine supporters always bringing up Israel.

And your sarcasm was implying that bringing the topic of Nazism support in a certain context is done intentionally to overlook the unfortunate situation of the victims (or vilify them). Which is what I agree with. 

 

 

25 minutes ago, Aristotle said:

Well if I make a thread about the embracement of Nazism in Palestine that means I have your support? 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world#Arab_incorporation_and_emulation_of_Nazism

 

You've been a member since 2012, do you recall yourself talking about Neo-Nazis in Ukraine (specifically) prior to 2022 in this site?  Yeah, that's what I thought. 

18 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

I guess we’ll overlook that the Israelis displaced the Palestinians and subject them to constant campaigns of pogroms. Funny how Ukrainian Nazi sympathizers always have to hide behind their love and support for a fundamentally evil apartheid state.  

 

-------

 

Now analyze this:

 

6 hours ago, Aristotle said:

The Nazi/Ukraine phenomena was unknown until Putin decided to invade Ukraine. It was never mentioned before the war started. Most of people who never talked about Nazis in Ukraine before 2022 but do now have an agenda. 

 

[ClashAndBurn]

1 hour ago, Aristotle said:

And your sarcasm was implying that bringing the topic of Nazism support in a certain context is done intentionally to overlook the unfortunate situation of the victims (or vilify them). Which is what I agree with. 

 

 

 

-------

 

Now analyze this:

 

 

And your overlooking the high level of incidence in which Ukrainians are seen sporting Nazi insignias in public very clearly shows an agenda itself as well. Azov Battalion wasn't being discussed as heavily before 2022 because America is now directly arming Nazis and giving them weapons for the purpose of fending off Russia, sure. But what happens with the leftover stockpiles that we refuse to commit oversight to, even though Nazis like them should never be considered trustworthy? Will they be sold off on the arms market? Or will they be pointed back at our own civilians in the future?

 

Why do you and everyone else here downplay that this is a problem?

[Communion]

2 hours ago, Aristotle said:

You've been a member since 2012, do you recall yourself talking about Neo-Nazis in Ukraine (specifically) prior to 2022 in this site?  Yeah, that's what I thought. 

Your question is to that user but to entertain you, literally yes.

 

And the evidence to such is literally one specific user in this very thread calling me a tankie since like 2019 when i replied to anti-communist fear-mongering with how the academic consensus remains that famines throughout the 1930s in the Soviet Union were not planned acts of ethnic cleansing but a product of poorly implemented collectivism (which then makes the debate if collectivism and thus communism always fails or not and one I'm more than willing to have), in a part of the world where famine was already common pre-collectivism.

 

And that the political campaign to newly frame these events as an almost precursor and (implied) justification for the Holocaust via an equal preceeding genocide is literally held up by Jewish scholars as a form of Holocaust denialism, most often pushed by those trying to erase Ukraine's participation in Nazi atrocities. Even prouder racists will tell you this first genocide was not only explicitly planned by *Jewish* Soviets (Judeo-Bolshevism is literally what this conspiracy theory is called) but will erase the reality that Jewish Ukrainians themselves were part of the many who paid the cost for poor government policy.

 

Of course I don't have a specific interest in Ukraine's nazi past. I simply was aware of and have spoken on it as part of the view that much of anti-communism is pro-nazism, especially in the West. As a Hungarian-American, I've similarly shared such views on how anti-communism was a trojan horse for pro-nazism in Hungary. (Which makes it even more absurd when people try to call a Hungarian-American communist a tankie? Like read a book? Whose alleged history do you think you're weaponizing? Are you gonna try to deny that modern Hungary is a fascist place?)

 

Anyone with even minimal interest in leftist politics and the history of such in Eastern Europe is aware of these conversations and that they have been going on for decades. Jewish scholars and academics have written at length about this history and the attempted reimaginating of the Holocaust's atrocities out of shame by certain Eastern European nationalist groups whose only patriotic identity in the void left after the fall of the Soviet Union was anti-communism and whitewashing all the atrocities that inconveniently are part of what these nations' history with the USSR entails. And that this patriotic identity that inadvertently glorifies the Nazi in the story of the evil of the "Bolshevik" (*barking from antisemitism dog whistle dog intensifies*) means in the 21st century that many of these countries are very racist places. This view held even when Ukraine's government was filled with those considered stooges for Russia. No one has ever thought Ukraine's rampant antisemitism magically started in 2014. 

 

Just because you're ignorant to reality doesn't make others. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Communion

[Aethereal]

1 minute ago, ClashAndBurn said:

And your overlooking the high level of incidence in which Ukrainians are seen sporting Nazi insignias in public very clearly shows an agenda itself as well. Azov Battalion wasn't being discussed as heavily before 2022 because America is now directly arming Nazis and giving them weapons for the purpose of fending off Russia, sure. But what happens with the leftover stockpiles that we refuse to commit oversight to, even though Nazis like them should never be considered trustworthy? Will they be sold off on the arms market? Or will they be pointed back at our own civilians in the future?

 

Why do you and everyone else here downplay that this is a problem?

Nazi support in Ukraine is not significantly higher or even higher at all than in other Eastern European countries or even Russia. 

I would bet big money that Russia has a bigger Nazi base than Ukraine does. Does Ukraine being ally with America disqualify them from being victims?

 

America is to blame for partially or heavily initiating (depending on which) several deadly conflicts in parts of Middle East but you need to take a more nuanced picture than just "bad America vs others". There are and were many unfortunate conflicts in Africa and Middle East, completely unrelated to the West, which are causing or caused deaths, torture, poverty and starvation. 

[ClashAndBurn]

9 minutes ago, Aristotle said:

Nazi support in Ukraine is not significantly higher or even higher at all than in other Eastern European countries or even Russia. 

They literally have national holidays revering Nazi collaborators TODAY. They sport Nazi paraphernalia on their military uniforms TODAY. Ukrainians are falling over themselves defending Yaroslav Hunka as a freedom fighter working with the lesser evil against Russia TODAY.  

 

11 minutes ago, Aristotle said:

I would bet big money that Russia has a bigger Nazi base than Ukraine does. Does Ukraine being ally with America disqualify them from being victims?

Only an idiot would take that bet because naturally, there is a higher population in Russia and there will obviously be more numbers. There are probably even more active marchers in America's KKK purely because of population, not because it's still mainstream in society.  

[Communion]

57 minutes ago, Aristotle said:

Nazi support in Ukraine is not significantly higher or even higher at all than in other Eastern European countries or even Russia. 

I would bet big money that Russia has a bigger Nazi base than Ukraine does. Does Ukraine being ally with America disqualify them from being victims?

 

America is to blame for partially or heavily initiating (depending on which) several deadly conflicts in parts of Middle East but you need to take a more nuanced picture than just "bad America vs others". There are and were many unfortunate conflicts in Africa and Middle East, completely unrelated to the West, which are causing or caused deaths, torture, poverty and starvation. 

Sis, you being aggressive and downvoting anyone who criticize fascism within Ukraine's past when you're the same user who previously admitted to reading neo-nazi forums and lashed out at progressives for "focusing more on Nazism than the real enemy that is Islamism" despite being corrected that the vast majority of terrorism of terrorism perpetuated in Europe are by neo-nazis and not Islamists makes it hard to view these posts as made in good faith. 

 

We literally had this same conversation 3 months ago. 

 

If you're acting in good faith, I suggest you read the works that were linked to you spanning a decade from scholars like Dovid Katz:

 

 

No one can make you care about the words of Jewish people from Eastern Europe but your lack of interest in their experiences as those most harmed in this part of the world's history doesn't erase the truth in them. 

 

You can be linked to a myriad of other explicitly anti-Putin figures who have written at length in their Jewish background about the nationalist views you're downplaying for some reason. I could link you to pieces by commentators like Mark Ames and more by Yasha Levine whose entire journalistic careers have been dedicated to trying -  to from the left - undermine the Russian right including explicitly Putin and you'd still somehow frame them as Putinists.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Communion

[bestfiction]

Not a good look ofc but Ukraine is still fighting a war for its survival that it will either:

a) win and will be able to process and properly denounce their historical relationship with Nazism 

b) lose and will be occupied by a fascist genocidal entity, which track record of crimes against humanity far exceeds that of Ukraine

That's it. Pick your desired outcome  

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by bestfiction

[Monday Night Messiah]

8 hours ago, Communion said:

Sis, you being aggressive and downvoting anyone who criticize fascism within Ukraine's past when you're the same user who previously admitted to reading neo-nazi forums and lashed out at progressives for "focusing more on Nazism than the real enemy that is Islamism" despite being corrected that the vast majority of terrorism of terrorism perpetuated in Europe are by neo-nazis and not Islamists makes it hard to view these posts as made in good faith. 

 

We literally had this same conversation 3 months ago. 

 

If you're acting in good faith, I suggest you read the works that were linked to you spanning a decade from scholars like Dovid Katz:

 

 

No one can make you care about the words of Jewish people from Eastern Europe but your lack of interest in their experiences as those most harmed in this part of the world's history doesn't erase the truth in them. 

 

You can be linked to a myriad of other explicitly anti-Putin figures who have written at length in their Jewish background about the nationalist views you're downplaying for some reason. I could link you to pieces by commentators like Mark Ames and more by Yasha Levine whose entire journalistic careers have been dedicated to trying -  to from the left - undermine the Russian right including explicitly Putin and you'd still somehow frame them as Putinists.

That user is hellbent on whitewashing Nazi history. You gotta wonder why.

[Aethereal]

18 hours ago, Communion said:

You can be linked to a myriad of other explicitly anti-Putin figures who have written at length in their Jewish background about the nationalist views you're downplaying for some reason. I could link you to pieces by commentators like Mark Ames and more by Yasha Levine whose entire journalistic careers have been dedicated to trying -  to from the left - undermine the Russian right including explicitly Putin and you'd still somehow frame them as Putinists.

ClashandBurn has been purposefully showing negative representation of Ukrainians since the war started not just with the Nazis but also by mocking and opposing the aid that the West gives to Ukraine, posting content of Ukrainian refugees being racist and using soft words for Russia's part in the invasion. I find that hard to be a coincidence. Of course his language is safe and well coded enough to backtrack when facts are brought to the table. 

 

"wHaT aBoUt aMerIcas invAsiOn1!!1"

 

[Communion]

38 minutes ago, Aristotle said:

ClashandBurn has been purposefully showing negative representation of Ukrainians since the war started not just with the Nazis but also by mocking and opposing the aid that the West gives to Ukraine, posting content of Ukrainian refugees being racist and using soft words for Russia's part in the invasion. I find that hard to be a coincidence. Of course his language is safe and well coded enough to backtrack when facts are brought to the table. 

 

"wHaT aBoUt aMerIcas invAsiOn1!!1"

 

Again, I cannot believe your accusations that ClashAndBurn is acting in bad faith are themselves being done in good after after the admittance of reading neo-nazi forums and historically downplaying Eastern European fascism with inherently racist language about Muslims within Europe. 

 

ClashAndBurn's posts outraged over Ukrainian nazism are no more suspect than your posts defending Ukrainian nazism.

[Aethereal]

6 minutes ago, Communion said:

Again, I cannot believe your accusations that ClashAndBurn is acting in bad faith are themselves being done in good after after the admittance of reading neo-nazi forums and historically downplaying Eastern European fascism with inherently racist language about Muslims within Europe. 

 

ClashAndBurn's posts outraged over Ukrainian nazism are no more suspect than your posts defending Ukrainian nazism.

If your posts are not defending Islamic extremism when you speak against the stereotypes towards Muslims then why are my posts speaking against the Nazi stereotype towards Ukrainians to be suspected?

 

I am Eastern European myself. 

 

[Communion]

6 minutes ago, Aristotle said:

If your posts are not defending Islamic extremism

Because I respond to posts that explicitly say things like "deport all Muslims". Can you show me where anyone has explicitly called for anything you're claiming?

 

That you yourself want me to believe a user's hesitations to *checks notes* the USA assassinating a foreign leader (??? Is THAT what you're using as evidence to claim a user is a Putinist?) is them "pushing Russian propaganda" yet you *ALSO* have defended inherently racist views that harm racial minorities in Europe while whitewashing Nazism in Eastern Europe is deeply troubling to me. 

 

Genuinely curious what Eastern European country you're from that you're downvoting people speaking on the realities of the treatment of Jewish people in Eastern Europe during the time before the Holocaust.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Communion