discussion Should the US have pulled out of Afghanistan?

[SmittenCake]

As US and NATO forces withdrew from conflict-ravaged Afghanistan following two decades of war, fighters from the Islamic fundamentalist group made lightning advances, conquering the entire nation in a matter of weeks. The Taliban has now been in power there for two years. As global interest in the war-torn country diminishes, many Afghans feel abandoned. Since the Taliban retook control they have imposed draconian restrictions on society, especially women and girls. Despite initial promises to respect women's rights under Sharia, or Islamic law, the Taliban have since imposed draconian restrictions on women and girls. Most of them are barred from participating in public life, educational institutions and the labor market. Women's freedom of movement has also been severely restricted. Yet, in an interview with DW's Biresh Banerjee, Taliban spokesperson Suhai Shaheen claimed women had made progress in the country. Shaheen insisted, incorrectly, that the Taliban have not denied education rights to women. He also said that the Taliban are supporting women's progress by allowing them to study nursing and to specialize as doctors. His argument ignores the fact that such diktats take away women's autonomy. Women are also only allowed to be in medical fields so that they do not have to be treated by male medical staff. Shaheen restated the Taliban's promise that schools and universities will be reopened to girls and women. He could not specify when this would happen. But, he said, "there is a committee set up to create an Islamic environment for that." Women in Afghanistan, human rights activists as well as the United Nations vehemently disagree with these claims, and have found chronic discrimination against women in the country.

 

 

The US gave a total of $18.6 billion of equipment to the Afghan National Defense and Security Forces (ANDSF) from 2005 to August 2021, according to the report. Of that total, equipment worth $7.12 billion remained in Afghanistan after the US withdrawal was completed on August 30, 2021. It included aircraft, air-to-ground munitions, military vehicles, weapons, communications equipment and other materials, according to the DoD report.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/27/politics/afghan-weapons-left-behind/index.html#:~:text=Of that total%2C equipment worth,according to the DoD report.

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by SmittenCake

[flower moon]

pull out game weak i fear

[Revolution]

There is nothing we can do. Afghanistan is a country with no future. 

[Bears01]

Yes. It was up there as one of the best things Biden’s done as president, along with his NLRB appointees, appointing Lina Khan as FTC chair, and the passage of the IRA. 
 

It’s the one move he made that legit made me actually defend him in public

[worldwide angel]

i can't really give a yes or no answer bc both the united states and the taliban ****** over the people of afghanistan. 

the departure would not have been as messy as they were if the US govt were actually invested in genuinely democratizing

afghanistan and restoring / enabling the rise of a stable, Afghan government that served the Afghan people. but they didn't... 

 

that plus local corruption led to the mess afghanistan is in now so...

[SmittenCake]

10 minutes ago, Bears01 said:

Yes. It was up there as one of the best things Biden’s done as president, along with his NLRB appointees, appointing Lina Khan as FTC chair, and the passage of the IRA. 
 

It’s the one move he made that legit made me actually defend him in public

While the initial presence of the USA in Afghanistan may have been contentious in terms of its legitimacy, one could argue that the only conceivable justification for their continued presence is the preference of Afghan citizens for the USA to remain. This preference is rooted in the improvements seen during the American presence, such as increased opportunities for women to work and receive an education, as well as a relatively stable economy. However, the current situation, marked by the Taliban's return to power, appears to be significantly worse than the conditions that existed before.

 

The hasty departure of the USA from Afghanistan, leaving behind both weapons and a dog, exemplifies the recklessness of the withdrawal. Today, we see these terrorists flaunting American weaponry.

[Bears01]

14 minutes ago, SmittenCake said:

While the initial presence of the USA in Afghanistan may have been contentious in terms of its legitimacy, one could argue that the only conceivable justification for their continued presence is the preference of Afghan citizens for the USA to remain. This preference is rooted in the improvements seen during the American presence, such as increased opportunities for women to work and receive an education, as well as a relatively stable economy. However, the current situation, marked by the Taliban's return to power, appears to be significantly worse than the conditions that existed before.

 

The hasty departure of the USA from Afghanistan, leaving behind both weapons and a dog, exemplifies the recklessness of the withdrawal. Today, we see these terrorists flaunting American weaponry.

So let’s spend another $2 TRILLION dollars on the taxpayers dime trying to fix an unfixable country? 
 

It’s not like we were there for a short period of time, we were there for 2 decades. We went there to capture and kill the perpetrators of 9/11. That goal was all about finished a long time ago. 
 

“I just don’t like how we left!!” Is neocon cope for “I wish he still left thousands of troops there to gradually leave over the next decade+”. 
 

Nah fam, rip the bandaid off and leave. Americans generally got over 9/11 and the CIA and bushes lies and bloodthirsty lust for revenge around 2006ish. 

[Tropez]

The US should not have involved itself with Afghanistan. That’s all that is needed to be said. The US should learn to mind its business. 

[AMIT]

It should have never even stepped its foot there. Such a disgraceful ordeal that will follow the US like a ghost for the rest of human history. 

[SmittenCake]

19 minutes ago, Bears01 said:

So let’s spend another $2 TRILLION dollars on the taxpayers dime trying to fix an unfixable country? 

This USA allocates substantial funds to seemingly frivolous endeavors, leading me to contemplate the idea of boundless financial resources. Whenever discussions arise about budgets or financial allocations, the question of their source seems almost irrelevant, as if a perpetual well of funds exists. If there was indeed a strategic plan or sincere intention to improve the state of Afghanistan as a nation, why would anyone oppose similar efforts to enhance a country that deserves to be in a more favorable condition?

[byzantium]

Yes...in like 2008

[Mr. Mendes]

3 hours ago, Tropez said:

The US should not have involved itself with Afghanistan. That’s all that is needed to be said. The US should learn to mind its business. 

 

3 hours ago, AMIT said:

It should have never even stepped its foot there. Such a disgraceful ordeal that will follow the US like a ghost for the rest of human history. 

There was some legitimate reason to go to Afghanistan (that is not to say it wasn’t a botch—it was). Afghanistan was actively harboring terrorists wanted for 9/11. Bush being Bush completely ****** it up but the basis of being there was not unreasonable provided the context. 

 

Iraq is where we had no business and never did. That was all a sham.

 

OT: Yes we should’ve left and much sooner than we did at that. We should’ve left as soon as we got who they went in looking for, but especially once Bin Laden was dead. 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Mr. Mendes

[Bears01]

1 hour ago, AMIT said:

It should have never even stepped its foot there. Such a disgraceful ordeal that will follow the US like a ghost for the rest of human history. 

 

1 hour ago, Tropez said:

The US should not have involved itself with Afghanistan. That’s all that is needed to be said. The US should learn to mind its business. 

I’m not a defender of war, but after 9/11 it would have been basically impossible for the U.S. to do nothing. It was badly, horribly mishandled, but I think it was genuinely understood by the majority of the world that the U.S. was going to intervene after the deadliest terrorist attack in world history happened right on our soil. 
 

The Iraq war? Completely 100% no justification and an utter disgrace from day 1. Day 1. 

[wastedpotential]

Afghanistan was a mess before the US arrived (thank the coup in '73 and certainly the Soviets), was a mess during the 20 years that the US was there, and has been a mess since its departure. No matter how well it played on national television in 2004, the US had no feasible way of democratizing (or even creating any sort of lasting stability in) Afghanistan, and every attempt made to do so was foolish, as can be seen in the system collapsing days after the withdrawal. US forces should have never been in Afghanistan to the degree that they were (I can understand desires to have a small presence to hunt for 9/11 perpetrators), and certainly not for 20 years. Biden being the president to pull the plug on something that had been discussed ad nauseam for 2 decades, even if it was botched, is something to be commended, as it certainly would have been easier (and more beneficial for his poll numbers) to pull a few hundred troops out, call it a 'draw down', and defer any actual change for the next administration. The wars on terror were massive black holes into which taxpayer money and US soldiers vanished (discounting the significant financial and human costs borne by the Afghan and Iraqi populations), and it was a good thing that they were finished, even if the results have been incredibly disheartening since. 

[DAP]

49 minutes ago, SmittenCake said:

This USA allocates substantial funds to seemingly frivolous endeavors, leading me to contemplate the idea of boundless financial resources. Whenever discussions arise about budgets or financial allocations, the question of their source seems almost irrelevant, as if a perpetual well of funds exists. If there was indeed a strategic plan or sincere intention to improve the state of Afghanistan as a nation, why would anyone oppose similar efforts to enhance a country that deserves to be in a more favorable condition?

Because US (and European) interventionism is what destabilized these countries in the first place. Taliban and other Islamist mercenary groups did not emerge spontaneously. They formed from “freedom fighters”/guerrilla groups trained and funded by Western governments in struggles for power against communist/socialist governments.

[Devin]

Who voted no? 

[Finite]

1 hour ago, AMIT said:

It should have never even stepped its foot there. Such a disgraceful ordeal that will follow the US like a ghost for the rest of human history. 

Well said

OT: is water wet?  

[thetea]

i'm not that well educated on this but i can see both perspectives. Afghanistan seems very unstable, the taliban took control so quickly after the USA's withdrawal. 

[Tropez]

1 hour ago, Mr. Mendes said:

 

There was some legitimate reason to go to Afghanistan (that is not to say it wasn’t a botch—it was). Afghanistan was actively harboring terrorists wanted for 9/11. Bush being Bushed completely ****** it up but the basis of being there were not unreasonable provided the context. 

 

Iraq is where we had no business and never did. That was all a sham.

 

OT: Yes we should’ve left and much sooner than we did at that. We should’ve left as soon as we got who they went in looking for, but especially once Bin Laden was dead. 

 

47 minutes ago, Bears01 said:

 

I’m not a defender of war, but after 9/11 it would have been basically impossible for the U.S. to do nothing. It was badly, horribly mishandled, but I think it was genuinely understood by the majority of the world that the U.S. was going to intervene after the deadliest terrorist attack in world history happened right on our soil. 
 

The Iraq war? Completely 100% no justification and an utter disgrace from day 1. Day 1. 

You guys don’t have a clue what you are talking about. The main reason Afghanistan was that way because the US funded the Taliban and Al Queda. Afghanistan was in a war with the USSR. The Afghan mujahidin received funding from the CIA to stop Afghanistan from falling to communism. 
 

This was a disaster. Once the USSR lost. The US backed Afghan mujahidin split largely into the Taliban. Overthrowing the Afghan government and establishing the country we see today. 
 

This is entirely the US fault. Osama Bin Laden was also a part of the U.S. funded Afghan mujahidin. Had the US minded its business Afghanistan would be different today. 9/11 may not have happened. 

[Miss Show Business]

Emotionally, this is such a mixed bag. The Taliban taking over was never going to be the ideal outcome, and the women's rights restrictions are awful, however at the same time, I think the pullout showed us just how destabilized the country was, even with US presence. It took the Taliban basically nothing to retake the country after US troops left, and all that tells me is that this had been a lost war for years. It makes no sense to keep troops there and spend our taxpayer dollars on this issue when basically the US presence there was the only thing stopping the Taliban.

 

Ultimately, there needs to be a reckoning on extremism, cryonyism, and corruption in much of the middle east. I think the Iran protests have shown us what is possible... I'm certain plenty of citizens in the middle east just want peace and are tired of radical fundamentalists ruling with an iron fist and starting never ending wars.

 

Unfortunately, western countries cannot help the middle east. This has been shown over and over again for decades, and ultimately the citizens of these countries will have to rise up themselves against their oppressive governments if they want change.

 

This issue is just so complex and deeply rooted; it'll take decades for peace to really happen in the middle east... I think now, western countries should focus on humanitarian efforts for oppressed people within these countries who want out.

 

As shi**y as the outcome was for the Afghan people, this was the only way. The western world, more pointedly the US, needs to focus on domestic issues and put the nail in the coffin to it's imperial practices.

 

[Bears01]

27 minutes ago, Tropez said:

 

You guys don’t have a clue what you are talking about. The main reason Afghanistan was that way because the US funded the Taliban and Al Queda. Afghanistan was in a war with the USSR. The Afghan mujahidin received funding from the CIA to stop Afghanistan from falling to communism. 
 

This was a disaster. Once the USSR lost. The US backed Afghan mujahidin split largely into the Taliban. Overthrowing the Afghan government and establishing the country we see today. 
 

This is entirely the US fault. Osama Bin Laden was also a part of the U.S. funded Afghan mujahidin. Had the US minded its business Afghanistan would be different today. 9/11 may not have happened. 

….I know what I’m talking about because everything you just said is wide known by the American people. 
 

Im just saying on 9/12, the American people were not going to stand for seeing the horrors they saw the day before, and not expect their government to do something. 
 

If you were president of the United States, you would not say after what happened “this is all the CIAs fault because we intervened there 20 years ago!” The people wouldn’t have stood for it. 
 

Nobody here is saying it was right in our overly prolonged response, I’m just saying you couldn’t expect something to be done 

[Tropez]

6 minutes ago, Bears01 said:

….I know what I’m talking about because everything you just said is wide known by the American people. 
 

Im just saying on 9/12, the American people were not going to stand for seeing the horrors they saw the day before, and not expect their government to do something. 
 

If you were president of the United States, you would not say after what happened “this is all the CIAs fault because we intervened there 20 years ago!” The people wouldn’t have stood for it. 
 

Nobody here is saying it was right in our overly prolonged response, I’m just saying you couldn’t expect something to be done 

Which was what my comment was about. The US included themselves in a situation they had no business in. Had they not funded these terrorists. There would be no need to invade Afghanistan, causing the death of thousands, spending trillions on a government that collapsed like a deck of cards. 

[Bears01]

Just now, Tropez said:

Which was what my comment was about. The US included themselves in a situation they had no business in. Had they not funded these terrorists. There would be no need to invade Afghanistan, causing the death of thousands, spending trillions on a government that collapsed like a deck of cards. 

Yes, our meddling was our fault. 
 

No, the American people would not have been okay or accepting of watching their fellow citizens, who personally had 0 to do with that meddling, get blown up and murdered in front of the entire world to see, by then having their government say “it’s our fault, we’re sorry, it’s time to move on”. This is an online fairy tale fantasy to just think “any sane government would just say it’s our fault and we’re sorry!”

[Mr. Mendes]

47 minutes ago, Tropez said:

Which was what my comment was about. The US included themselves in a situation they had no business in. Had they not funded these terrorists. There would be no need to invade Afghanistan, causing the death of thousands, spending trillions on a government that collapsed like a deck of cards. 

Regardless of the causes and any meddling or bad choices the US made pre-9/11—of which there is an inexcusable many—the suggestion that not invading after 9/11 was ever an option is insane. 

 

I’m not pro-war, especially not when this country’s relationship to war is perhaps the unhealthiest in the western world. But truly, is the expectation here for almost 3,000 people who had nothing to do with their government’s meddling to have to simply take the loss on their government’s behalf with no attempt made by anyone to bring those responsible to justice? There wasn’t a choice. 

 

I don’t deny our own actions helped create the situation. Hell, I wouldn’t even deny it was one of if not THE leading factor. 

 

But the question in the OP was should we have pulled out of Afghanistan after getting there due to the invasion. Your initial response implied that you thought we didn’t have reason or cause to’ve invaded in 2001. That is the part that is untrue, no one is arguing the stuff pre-9/11 is untrue. 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Mr. Mendes

[Bussea]

yes. too many innocent civilians got caught in the crossfire