discussion Is Animal Abuse Apology An Issue On ATRL?

[ugo]

5 minutes ago, lacy said:

But what would being a pick me vegan telling everyone it's totally fine to keep eating meat accomplish? You'd feel better about yourself but nothing would change.

 

What change are you making? You can type here that you think it'd be cool if you could eat meat without there being any consequences but this miracle isn't coming.

I mean let's be real you're making no change if anything animal slaughter just keeps increasing because the world population is going up. 

Edited September 3, 2023 by ugo

[lacy]

Just now, ugo said:

I mean let's be real you're making no change if anything animal slaughter just keeps increasing because the world population is going up. 

I am making a change; I'm not saying it's a big change. I'm one person, but it makes a difference.

 

And just because I alone can't solve a problem doesn't mean I'm going to give up and make it worse.

 

At least I'm trying, what are YOU doing?

[GraceRandolph]

16 minutes ago, Headlock said:

Wouldn’t it be morally worse to allow the animal’s life to go to waste?

How is its life going to waste? It’ll provide food for scavengers and fertilize the land, right? I don’t get this argument.

[ugo]

1 minute ago, lacy said:

I am making a change; I'm not saying it's a big change. I'm one person, but it makes a difference.

 

And just because I alone can't solve a problem doesn't mean I'm going to give up and make it worse.

 

At least I'm trying, what are YOU doing?

Like I said I get sustainable meat….but I won't pressure everyone to do it I know that a lot of people would if they could, it's just that the cost of it is higher. 

[Sheep]

@ugo is really out here fighting the good fight in the face of willful ignorance. I see you king 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Century

[lacy]

1 minute ago, ugo said:

Like I said I get sustainable meat

And how is this solving animal abuse?

[ugo]

Just now, lacy said:

And how is this solving animal abuse?

"I am making a change; I'm not saying it's a big change. I'm one person, but it makes a difference."

 

Also I never claimed to be a saviour…..I just eat meat and idc 

[lacy]

1 minute ago, ugo said:

Also I never claimed to be a saviour…..I just eat meat and idc 

If you don't care why have you sat in this thread tearing apart other peoples attempts to solve the issue?

 

Why have you tried to invalidate our efforts by pointing out unavoidable issues like laptops containing gelatin?

[ugo]

2 minutes ago, lacy said:

If you don't care why have you sat in this thread tearing apart other peoples attempts to solve the issue?

 

Why have you tried to invalidate our efforts by pointing out unavoidable issues like laptops containing gelatin?

You never attempted to solve the issue at first hand with bringing facts or solutions you've been calling everyone who eat meat horrible. It just doesn't reconcile any aspect of it and if anything you're driving people away from veganism. 

 

How is it unavoidable just don't own a laptop if you want to be a true vegan. You're contributing to "animal abuse" too in the end. 

[lacy]

1 minute ago, ugo said:

You never attempted to solve the issue at first hand with bringing facts or solutions you've been calling everyone who eat meat horrible. It just doesn't reconcile any aspect of it and if anything you're driving people away from veganism.

I mean if you wanna get back to the issue in the OP that's fine by me.

  

1 hour ago, GraceRandolph said:

How can we get animal abuse apologists off the street and internet?

Tell us, ugo, how can we get you off the street and internet?

 

3 minutes ago, ugo said:

you're driving people away from veganism.

This one is always brought up but it's a double edged sword

 

Option A) Vegans pretend animal abuse is fine so animal abusers feel happy, animal abusers continue to abuse animals

 

Option B) Vegans tell animal abusers that animal abuse is not okay, animal abusers get upset and say "well now you've upset me i'm going to keep abusing animals"

 

 

5 minutes ago, ugo said:

How is it unavoidable just don't own a laptop if you want to be a true vegan. You're contributing to "animal abuse" too in the end. 

We went through this in the last thread but I have nothing better to do tonight so why not.

 

If I'm to somehow be 100% perfect and never cause another being suffering ever again

 

I cannot get an uber tomorrow when going to the store, as the seats might be leather, guess i'll walk

 

Wait, I can't even walk, as I could accidentally step on an insect killing it, guess i'll stay home and order food

 

Wait, I can't even eat because an insect could have been killed when the crops were being farmed

 

Guess I'll just sit here and die.

 

All this to say, no one can be perfect, but that's not a reason to cause unnecessary suffering by actively making the choice to purchase products made from dead animals. periodt.

[ugo]

25 minutes ago, lacy said:

 

  

Tell us, ugo, how can we get you off the street and internet?

 

 

And now you're resorting to personal attacks 

 

The fact that you're unwilling to give up on your laptop shows that it's hard for people to change, why would you just expect anyone to give on meat and go out of their way. Encouraging people to eat sustainable meat is more reasonable.

 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by ugo

[Trent W]

I don’t like how people justify animal abuse in some countries under “culture”

 

Cruelty is cruelty, it doesn’t matter if it’s tradition and it needs to be changed and called out

[lacy]

 

2 minutes ago, ugo said:

The fact that you're unwilling to give up on your laptop shows that it's hard for people to change, why would you just expect anyone to give on meat and go out of their way. Encouraging people to eat sustainable meat is more reasonable.

I gave up meat, there was an alternative, eating plant based foods.

 

If I give up my laptop there isn't an alternative, there isn't a vegan friendly laptop.

 

I bought vegan leather boots instead of real leather boots. I'd buy a vegan friendly laptop next time I need a new laptop if such a device existed.

 

It's a bad faith argument and you know it.

[GraceRandolph]

2 minutes ago, Trent W said:

I don’t like how people justify animal abuse in some countries under “culture”

 

Cruelty is cruelty, it doesn’t matter if it’s tradition and it needs to be changed and called out

It’s like… would we say homophobia or sexism is fine because it’s a tradition in lots of places?

[Trent W]

21 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said:

It’s like… would we say homophobia or sexism is fine because it’s a tradition in lots of places?

Exactly 

 

[Communion]

2 hours ago, Century said:

Anti-abortion people are hypocrites for a laundry list of issues and eating meat isn't one of them.

Except *you're* the one who used abortion for some reason as some gotcha against vegans. It verges into: "hmm but what if PLANTS can feel pain too???" level of concern-trolling. You're not being a serious person.

 

And I'm simply pointing out that the hypocrisy is greater, simply by numbers, on the anti-abortion side.

 

There are indeed vegans who don't believe it is unethical to consume non-sentient beings and beings who don't feel pain, whether it be certain bugs or mussels and oysters with rudimentary nervous systems, and how this aligns with the commonly-held pro-choice view over abortion. That a fetus can't be a 'person' and abortion is not 'murder' explicitly because the fetus itself doesn't even begin to develop sentience well into the 7th month of gestation. But this view is easily compatible with the idea that slicing the throat of a cow who'll feel every moment of it is undue harm.

 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Communion

[Communion]

1 hour ago, ugo said:

just don't own a laptop if you want to be a true vegan

 

5 minutes ago, Communion said:

It verges into: "hmm but what if PLANTS can feel pain too???" level of concern-trolling

Wash, rinse, repeat. 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Communion

[samsclubPRESENTSavam]

3 hours ago, Johnny Jacobs said:

Ew wtf 

 

That's horrible! It happens all over.

 

My boyfriend took me to a fancy michelin restaurant in london and they cooked the lobster alive in boiling water! I immediately left. 

 

Some places/countries have horrible treatment to that kind of stuff

No mercy. 

 

Im no vegan but i think there's a less cruel way to do that

They are cooked alive due to the bacteria that rapidly multiplies when the lobster is dead. They can be killed right before they are cooked as well but I don't really feel like either option is that great...

[Sheep]

45 minutes ago, Communion said:

Except *you're* the one who used abortion for some reason as some gotcha against vegans. It verges into: "hmm but what if PLANTS can feel pain too???" level of concern-trolling. You're not being a serious person.

Calling me a troll and not a real person when I'm clearly advocating for animal rights in this thread, just in ways you don't agree with is miserable behavior and extremely disrespectful. I could just as easily do the same to you, especially after the tone of your responses.

 

Being able to recognize that it would be wrong to condemn a practice on the grounds of a vocal minority calling murder when neither the majority or the science agrees with them, but only when it serves your views is hypocrisy. Either we should listen to these vocal minorities or we shouldn't, they're very comparable in that the word murder is being thrown around in situations where the majority would disagree. Plants don't have nervous systems or brains and nobody has ever called salad murder with a straight face. I never even mentioned plants, you invented a fake argument just to dunk on it. Remind me who's allegedly trolling?

 

45 minutes ago, Communion said:

There are indeed vegans who don't believe it is unethical to consume non-sentient beings and beings who don't feel pain, whether it be certain bugs or mussels and oysters with rudimentary nervous systems, and how this aligns with the commonly-held pro-choice view over abortion. That a fetus can't be a 'person' and abortion is not 'murder' explicitly because the fetus itself doesn't even begin to develop sentience well into the 7th month of gestation. But this view is easily compatible with the idea that slicing the throat of a cow who'll feel every moment of it is undue harm.

I clearly stated that the hypocrisy is based in social factors and not biological factors, this entire paragraph is a non sequitur. You can either choose to respect the judgement of others or you can advocate for your personal feelings to be the law/moral norm. I think it's obvious where both of us stand in regards to that. I would never tell a vegan to stop being vegan anymore than I would tell somebody that they need to stop eating meat immediately. What I very strongly believe in is mass education and the industrial reform and reduced consumption that would come from it. Crazy puritans are a hurdle to both of those things because they dilute the validity of the facts in the eyes of the gp.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Century

[Communion]

8 minutes ago, Century said:

 or you can advocate for your personal feelings to be the law/moral norm. 

I don't know why you're going in circles at this point because your nonsense gotcha didn't work.

 

The point is that *objectively* someone can advocate that both 1) people shouldn't eat meat because it harms animals AND 2) that abortion is not murder because fetuses can't feel pain - and that these two types of advocacy are not at odds with one another based on the overlapping belief to not do harm and that harm is constituted as physical pain. 

 

I literally don't care about anything else you're trying to say or argue. You trying to dunk on a vegan user as somehow a crusader and arguing their stances are absolute and hypocritical is objectively nonsense because the science behind why abortion is not murder overlaps with why the consumption of animals is.  Your initial comment was anti-science and nonsense.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Communion

[Sheep]

4 minutes ago, Communion said:

I don't know why you're going in circles at this point because your nonsense gotcha didn't work.

 

My point was factual and well-made. You're just reeling from it. Both issues come down to moralistic extremists trying to enforce their views on the majority.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Century

[Communion]

2 minutes ago, Century said:

Both issues come down to moralistic extremists 

This isn't working. You sound like a silly centrist. You really walked into looking silly for no reason but your own ego.

 

Someone who advocates for not eating meat and who advocates for the right to have an abortion:

1. Is not pushing two ideas at odds with one another, as you previously argued;
2. Is objectively correct on the understanding that non-human animals feel pain and human fetuses do not;
3. Is again being *morally consistent*;

I don't care if you find this person annoying or lecturing. That's then a fault of your own poor logic and moral compass.

 

i'm not a vegan but understand that vegans are objectively right when recognizing animal consumption is to cause harm. And that there's no way to lessen that harm besides ending the consumption of animals. 

 

Again, this post is objectively nonsensical and makes no sense:

 

[lacy]

2 minutes ago, Communion said:

This isn't working. You sound like a silly centrist. You really walked into looking silly for no reason but your own ego.

 

Someone who advocates for not eating meat and who advocates for the right to have an abortion:

1. Is not pushing two ideas at odds with one another, as you previously argued;
2. Is objectively correct on the understanding that non-human animals feel pain and human fetuses do not;
3. Is again being *morally consistent*;

I don't care if you find this person annoying or lecturing. That's then a fault of your own poor logic and moral compass.

 

i'm not a vegan but understand that vegans are objectively right when recognizing animal consumption is to cause harm. And that there's no way to lessen that harm besides ending the consumption of animals. 

 

Again, this post is objectively nonsensical and makes no sense:

 

HOLY based

[Communion]

Like I'm sorry but this:

3 hours ago, Century said:

What I was saying is that the puritanical absolutists when it comes to animal rights are experiencing serious cognitive biases because I've never met a single one that wasn't also pro-choice. 

reveals someone who doesn't understand why eating meat constitutes harm nor what an abortion actually is.

 

 

There is no dissonance is understanding that something can feel pain and something else can't and thus one is harm and the other is not. You're either suggesting you think fetuses can feel pain or I don't even know what? That inflicting harm is fine if it's the norm? And somehow that relates to abortion? 

 

Sometimes it's bad when we swim out of our depth, y'all!

[Sheep]

10 minutes ago, Communion said:

This isn't working. You sound like a silly centrist. You really walked into looking silly for no reason but your own ego.

 

Someone who advocates for not eating meat and who advocates for the right to have an abortion:

1. Is not pushing two ideas at odds with one another, as you previously argued;
2. Is objectively correct on the understanding that non-human animals feel pain and human fetuses do not;
3. Is again being *morally consistent*;

I don't care if you find this person annoying or lecturing. That's then a fault of your own poor logic and moral compass.

 

i'm not a vegan but understand that vegans are objectively right when recognizing animal consumption is to cause harm. And that there's no way to lessen that harm besides ending the consumption of animals. 

 

Again, this post is objectively nonsensical and makes no sense:

 

You sound like a troll who is desperately trying to shift the narrative to one where they're right. People aren't anti-abortion or anti-meat eating for biological factors, it comes down to morals and feelings. I'm not equating the act of eating a hamburger with the act of getting an abortion so any argument based on that doesn't apply. Advocating for mass education about animal abuse, reduced meat consumption, and holding the livestock industry accountable is very far from centrist, you're envoking a lazy political platitude that isn't relevant.

 

You're so far out of the realm of objectivity that you're personally insulting people and passing it off as facts.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Century