Patient Zero Posted August 29, 2023 Posted August 29, 2023 11 hours ago, playboi said: I'm French and culturally muslim and I support this This new generation of muslim teens is ridiculous, not even their parents were that conservative back in the 90s/2000s. It's time to set some boundaries because this isn't a muslim country. I'm also raised muslim and support this. The sooner we erase religion, the better. Good job, France 2 1
rzal Posted August 29, 2023 Posted August 29, 2023 15 hours ago, playboi said: I'm French and culturally muslim and I support this This new generation of muslim teens is ridiculous, not even their parents were that conservative back in the 90s/2000s. It's time to set some boundaries because this isn't a muslim country. Aren't these laws just making them more conservative?
State of Grace. Posted August 29, 2023 Posted August 29, 2023 13 hours ago, Communion said: The way 99% of arguments on ATRL about Islam is people not realizing that their rejection of conservative forms of Islam does not then make their own views somehow not conservative too. See: A user like @playboi talking about "conservative teens" while in another thread defending rampant transphobia and peddling conspiracy theories that puberty blockers are a "Big Pharma" scheme. These ideologues just 10-20 years ago would be openly proud of being illiberal and conservative, but the popularity of progressivism has made the co-option of it en vogue, so now somehow these conversations are burdened by people swearing up and down legislating what a woman can wear IS somehow the right, progressive thing to do. Edit: The post below this one proving the point by both deriding identity politics ("just because someone is a minority doesn't mean their religion is right!!!") and then employing it to silence criticisms of illiberalism to said groups ("be quiet white Americans!!!"). Exactly sis! and I've noticed that this sentiment is unfortunately popular among many ex-Muslims too. They think they're rejecting Islam but they just end up falling under another form of conservatism and start rooting for things like dictating what women should wear and how they should present themselves, mass deportation, you know it. Like what in the Le Pen supporters in this? You're simping for people who don't even like you. I disagree with them and I'm self-hating, stockholm syndrome'd, and defending Islam. Genuinely tired of it. 11 hours ago, welham said: I'll be honest in saying that a part of me does question the the effectiveness of the legistlation as well. Such actions usually cause backlash and lead to the opposite effect, especially in this instance where the French Muslim community already feels targeted as it is. I have no idea what a more effective action would be like. Maybe improving the socio-economic conditions of the Muslim community might help, in tandem with combating external influences (such as Saudi Arabia's Wahhabist ideology export) especially through regulating the flow of foreign money/funding into specific projects/campaigns inside the country. In either case, there is no 100% liberal policy that can be adopted. Everything is regulated to one degree or another, everyone's rights are violated in one way or another. The question is in what areas and to what extent can these "violations" go. I also feel that liberal-minded people need to take a step back and question the direction the left is taking to address the issue. There's a reason religious extremism and reactionary far-right groups continue to grow. Sure, it has a lot to do with the historically right-wing and neo-liberal policies adopted by Western powers at the zenith of their dominanc over the world order. However, in this specific instance, the left largely gives the impression that it brushes the issues under the rug or adops ineffective policies. Integration and blind acceptance is simply not enough, the left has to actually acknowledge and challenge Islamic rhetoric instead of being afraid of giving the impression that they're "imposing Western ideals created by the white man on brown people to erase their culture." I understand the sensitivity inherent in the attempts to change the views of communities who are largely POC, but sometimes some "tough love" is needed. Does that "tough love" necessarily need to come in the shape of bans and strict regulations? I'm unsure. My support of the ban comes from my frustration as a leftist ex-Muslim. I just can't help but feel that nothing effective is being done to even address the issue let alone combat it, so my initial reaction to bans is "finally something is being done." You can describe me as a reationary in this instance I guess. I'm just itching for any action, especially with the rising homophobic rhetoric and influences seemingly everywhere (and in this specific instance within Muslim communities, which have historically been homophobic as it is). The left just feels like it's losing this fight because of ineffective strategies, and it is sticking to these same strategies to the bitter end. There has to be a better way because the left's cultural and political reach and messaging is appallingly incompetent and hollow. Or at least that how if feels like to me. I don't necessarily agree with everything you said but you do make very compelling and thoughtful arguments.
A.R.L Posted August 29, 2023 Posted August 29, 2023 On 8/28/2023 at 6:08 PM, JoJo said: France colonized Middle Eastern and North African countries and are now banning the cultural attire of the very people they’ve oppressed. I just know Catholics who wear cross necklaces in public places aren’t receiving the same treatment even though it’s against the law too. Just as the Muslim Arabs conquered those countries and imposed their religion, rules and language on the natives even today, I see no difference. 1
katykater Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 (edited) Schools have always suppressed the kids from showing which popular sub culture (goths, punks, metalheads,...) they belong to. Other ways to show which clique, faction,... you belong to, is wearing religious symbols like a cross, traditional dress of a nationality, ethnic minority,... You don't bring Lederhosen, Dutch clogs,... to a school in France. Keep the school kids neutral looking before a border is drawn in the class room between the nationalities, religions, ethnic groups,... and trenches are being made. Edited August 30, 2023 by katykater
Robert Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 It's literally just a long dress that's barely distinguishable from a long dress. Given their country has been on fire for nearly a year, you think they would have bigger things to worry about.
La Reina Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 France practices laïcité (secularism). They don't want religions infiltrating their society or changing their culture. Lots of Muslim countries do the same. Their countries, their rules. 1
La Reina Posted August 30, 2023 Posted August 30, 2023 On 8/29/2023 at 3:49 PM, rzal said: Aren't these laws just making them more conservative? Yes unfortunately, because things like this just makes them feel like they're being persecuted. Christians in the United States are like this too which is why they're so hell-bent on destroying the separation of church and state.
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