celeb news Roisin Murphy admits transphobia in awful statement; Ninja Tune ceases promotion

[JessPop]

8 minutes ago, Veckatimest said:

Hormone therapy is never administered as a part of gender-affirming care to children that young, and even puberty blockers aren't prescribed until early adolescence if at all. When these things are clearly stated in a plethora of medical literature, it's harmful to even suggest that it's not the case; essentially any medical professional would agree that a child of that age cannot offer informed consent. To perpetuate the narratives that these things even happen at all adds fuel to the fire started by people who do not think that children should even be allowed to socially transition at a younger age, so no, it's certainly not "common sense."

Quote

A California teenager has started to sue the doctors who at age 13 cut off her breasts in a medical gender change she now bitterly regrets, in America's latest blockbuster trans lawsuit. 
 

Layla Jane says her puberty blockers and hormones were a medical 'torment' 

Kaiser Permanente doctors offered trans care after minutes-long consultations 

Another California teen Chloe Cole last month sued the same hospital 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11873443/California-teen-sues-doctors-breast-removal-surgery-13-Kaiser-Permanentes-2nd-lawsuit.html
 

So as I was saying: these things obviously do happen and as you stated earlier; children of any age cannot give informed consent. So I don’t see why you have an issue with my statement.

[vuelve88]

I’m glad I never listened to her music 

[Communion]

2 hours ago, JessPop said:

So as I was saying:

"Children as young as 7!"

*links to article where the two girls in questions started transitioning at 13 and 15, respectively*

 

Again, detransitioners make up less than 3% of all people who medically transition. It's interesting that you decided to link to something mentioning Chloe Cole, given that she herself says she STILL is suffering from gender dysphoria due to being female and says she detransitioned because "no one prepared [her] for the reality of dating" and that she explicitly preferred the idea of being straight, even if it meant having to be a girl, than having to be gay when she got to live as a man.

 

There's literally a clip of her from today with that freak Vivek literally saying the driving force behind her detransition was because "the dating options were more limited" as a gay man than as a straight woman.

 

"I'm good now that I'm NO LONGER TRANS AND MY PEERS WON'T ISOLATE ME"

 

I hope one day Chloe finds her peace. 

 

Again, it's 100% her right to do with her body now as she wishes (though she clearly doesn't want to give anyone else the same right by becoming a vessel for right-wing propaganda), but it's an interesting choice of example given Roisin's peddling of the conspiracy that being trans is a scheme to "mutilate gay youth". 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Communion

[Mr. Mendes]

2 hours ago, JessPop said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11873443/California-teen-sues-doctors-breast-removal-surgery-13-Kaiser-Permanentes-2nd-lawsuit.html
 

So as I was saying: these things obviously do happen and as you stated earlier; children of any age cannot give informed consent. So I don’t see why you have an issue with my statement.

Did you use the Daily Mail thinking that it was an acceptable source of accurate and reliable information? Are you living in reality? 

[Mr. Mendes]

7 hours ago, Brunette Ambition said:

Uhm yes it does because not all gays/lesbians or bisexuals are queer. 

If you're a troll you're quite bad at it

[Veckatimest]

3 hours ago, JessPop said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11873443/California-teen-sues-doctors-breast-removal-surgery-13-Kaiser-Permanentes-2nd-lawsuit.html
 

So as I was saying: these things obviously do happen and as you stated earlier; children of any age cannot give informed consent. So I don’t see why you have an issue with my statement.

So, A) your claim was that 7-8 year olds shouldn't receive hormone treatment, and my claim was both that that does not happen and that medical professionals would agree that children in that specific age range could not offer informed consent to something deemed partially irreversible such as hormone treatment. There's also something even more fallacious about your initial claim that 7-8 year olds don't need hormone treatment; why would they even receive hormone treatment at all? Puberty blockers themselves are only prescribed to early adolescents in rare cases when young children present persistent gender dysphoria only after puberty has begun, and it is only after a significant amount of time elapses being on puberty blockers while still having gender dysphoria that hormone treatment is even treated as an option. So no, no one who is in favor of gender-affirming care in terms of how it's actually generally practiced would support hormone therapy for a child that young because it literally would offer a child that young no feasible benefit given that they haven't hit puberty yet, and again, even suggesting such a thing is irresponsible since you're misrepresenting how gender-affirming care is actually practiced.

 

B) It's actually not unilaterally considered true that all minors can never give informed consent; in many countries, minors in their teens are either deemed able to give informed consent (in some countries the age is 16,) while in some countries with regards to specific procedures it can be left to the discretion of the doctor and parents if the situation is deemed a special enough case. 

 

C) So, with regards to the article you linked; first of all, the Daily Mail is widely considered to be one of the least credible major newspapers in the world. If you're really going to go down this line of questioning, it would have been prudent to at least evaluate multiple sources from different perspectives. Every source that I personally found on this case came from sites with a heavy ideological bias, i.e. the New York Post (who, just like the Daily Mail, has been straight up parroting alt-right talking points recently,) or Christian or outright Republican/Conservative sites. It was difficult for me to even find a moderate source on this case, although if any do perhaps exist and I missed them, I would like to see them. If you happen to ascribe to those ideologies, you're obviously completely free to do so, but you tried to pass off your criticism as "common sense" which wouldn't align with the fact that the vast, vast majority of sources covering this are heavily biased. I did, however, look into this case, and a number of red flags came up. The parents claimed that they went to two providers before the ones they accused in order to seek hormone treatment and a possible mastectomy for their daughter, and they were refused both times. Does it not seem strange to you that they continued to shop around and failed to reflect on whether these procedures were appropriate for their child after having been rejected two times? Informed consent for a child is also the responsibility of the parent, so if they genuinely went forward with irreversible procedures without educating themselves after significant doubts were raised by legitimate medical professionals, a lot of this is on them, sorry. This also goes against the alt-right talking point brought up in the article that the parents were manipulated into going forward with the procedure because the physicians mentioned the elevated risk of suicide for those suffering from gender dysphoria who are denied care. How could this have been such a strong factor in persuading them to go through with the surgery, as if they were reluctant at first, if they were already ignoring doctors who refused to go forward with the treatment beforehand? But also, both the official complaint and this peer-reviewed article (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9555285/#:~:text=Clinicians at KPNC provide care,therapy as an absolute requirement.) indicate that Kaiser Permanente's official policies regarding gender-affirming care adhere to the WPATH standards of care, which are linked in the article and which I actually read along with multiple other standards of care including the American Academy of Pediatrics. These state that before a minor can even start puberty blockers, not even hormones or physical interventions, that they must have long-standing gender dysphoria and extensive psychological examination of any other possible comorbidities. These are the standards of care to which both this specific hospital and nearly every hospital offering gender-affirming care in the world adhere to, and given that the psychological evaluation that this child received was woefully inadequate, these specific doctors violated the standards of care. Furthermore, the standards of care set a hard limit of 18 on any genital surgeries, and chest surgeries, which this child received, may be granted on a case-by-case basis if the child has already started hormone treatment after both receiving thorough evaluation for gender dysphoria, any other possible mental illnesses that could interfere, social transition, and initial treatment with puberty blockers before one year elapses when the child officially starts living as their assigned gender. There are some exemptions granted to this rule given the extent of the gender dysphoria to the discretion of the physician, and my guess is that this is to allow for patients who are suicidal to receive surgeries sooner. Again, this is only for mastectomies and after persistent diagnosed gender dysphoria, and this does not apply to genital surgery. All of this is to say that these specific physicians violated the standard of care, even those specific to their hospital, by not ensuring that the child received thorough enough psychological evaluation. 

 

Now, there are cases of malpractice for literally every medical procedure you can imagine, even for those that are pretty common, like knee replacement surgeries. Fun fact, my aunt was pressured into a knee replacement surgery (one of the most common procedures) by a doctor when she ended up having a problem that was completely unrelated to her knee, and is currently thinking about filing a malpractice suit. Do you see people calling for the complete outlawing of knee replacement surgeries because of malpractice suits (and, mind you, these suits are exponentially more common than any suits regarding minor detransitioners, of which I could find two)? Why can we accept that these procedures are generally advantageous but run the risk of malpractice due to the discretion of individual doctors, but this same logic is never applied to gender-affirming care? Also, the two major "detransitioner" suits regarding minors I could find are being both funded by and represented by right-wing ambulance chasers who have a track record of representing erroneous lawsuits in order to push a far-right ideological agenda. If a court of law finds that these claims are true, then maybe we can reopen the conversation, but as of now, they have not and these are all alleged claims, so your claim that it is most definitely "happening" on a significant level has not been proven yet, and even if it were true, this would be due to doctors violating the standard of care and individually being guilty of malpractice as opposed to an issue with the standard of care that is utilized on a larger scale for minors across the world.

 

To end this, given that you searched for the first possible claim of erroneous action taken towards a minor and had no qualms about taking a far-right news source at face value, I'm guessing that you suffer from confirmation bias around this issue and that likely won't be fixed by this post. However, for anyone else who is on the fence about this issue and believes that Roisin was raising possibly valid questions, please at least attempt to start your own line of questioning and don't take sources such as these at face value. I hope it's clear both in what I and some other posters articulated that portraying even a minority of gender-affirming care received by minors as not obtaining informed consent is dangerous, and the right wing is using these claims to challenge gender-affirming care across the board, including social transition.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Veckatimest

[JessPop]

On 8/29/2023 at 11:49 PM, Veckatimest said:

So, A) your claim was that 7-8 year olds shouldn't receive hormone treatment, and my claim was both that that does not happen and that medical professionals would agree that children in that specific age range could not offer informed consent to something deemed partially irreversible such as hormone treatment.

 

For me (and probably for most ppl) when you’re asked the baseline question of “should kids transition?” I think the most common answer is “no” and when ppl hear the word ‘children’ most think of anyone specifically under the age of 18. So when I said 7-8 it’s implied anything else under the age 18 falls under the umbrella of ‘child’ teen or not. 

 

I know that you mentioned how it isn’t unilaterally true that kids can’t give informed consent but again we’re not talking about custody disputes where a child is given the opportunity to name which parent they’d rather live with or how 16-17 yr olds (in some states) are considered able to give consent when it comes to sexual autonomy/having intimate contact with someone also their age or older.

 

We’re talking about kids making the decision to alter their bodies in life changing ways when it’s a widely accepted medical fact that the human brain doesn’t even fully develop until the age of 25 but yet we’re expected to accept and entertain the idea of temperamental and hormonal children being mentally capable of genuinely deciding that they were born in the wrong body to the point of condoning medical malpractice to assuage their dysphoria? That’s a big leap for anyone to make. 

 

The age of informed marital consent is 14 in Massachusetts and New Hampshire so does that make it right and kids should start getting married to whomever tomorrow or can we agree that being married that young is disgusting and the law in those states should be amended?

 

I understand what the medical guidelines for affirmative care state and in an ideal world of course all doctors would staunchly adhere to those standards of practice but we don’t live in an ideal world and it’s problematic that a family allegedly could doctor-shop until they find one that agrees with whatever they want to do. 

 

I do think 99.9% of doctors want the best for their patients and try as much as humanly possible to do no harm as their oath states. However; if one child is confused and ends up being a victim of medical malpractice as a result of that then it’s one too many. That’s why I believe we should have a federal law(s) in place that takes legal discretion away from doctors in this area and makes waiting to medically transition mandatory until at least the age of 18 with exemptions made in rare and or life threatening circumstances.

 

The automatic open hostility from the community at large directed towards those with legitimate questions/feedback and don’t immediately fall in line and agree to the party-line regarding aspects of what should and shouldn’t be classified as trans-rights feeds right-wing propaganda more than some ppl in here care to admit. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by JessPop

[Badger]

That statement is a very long winded way of saying “I should’ve kept my mouth shut”

[rihannafan]

Imagine listening to someone called Roisin Murphy. People will listen to anything these days 

[State of Grace.]

I was hoping she'd take some time to educate herself and listen to trans people then post a proper apology addressing her comment but whew that statement is so idiotic. She really is deep down the rabbit hole of transphobic conspiracy theories and this word salad is serving:

 

I was never a fan, but its awful to see someone who has been an ally for decades and even dedicated a song to ******* Paris Is Burning say **** like this. I feel bad for her trans fans especially. It's sad how the right wing propaganda has gotten to people like her and even sadder when you see people from the community agreeing with her.  

Edited August 30, 2023 by State of Grace.

[Daddy]

1 hour ago, rihannafan said:

Imagine listening to someone called Roisin Murphy. People will listen to anything these days 

What does that have to do with anything? It's a beautiful Irish name.

[bestfiction]

1 hour ago, State of Grace. said:

I was hoping she'd take some time to educate herself and listen to trans people then post a proper apology addressing her comment but whew that statement is so idiotic. She really is deep down the rabbit hole of transphobic conspiracy theories and this word salad is serving:

 

I was never a fan, but its awful to see someone who has been an ally for decades and even dedicated a song to ******* Paris Is Burning say **** like this. I feel bad for her trans fans especially. It's sad how the right wing propaganda has gotten to people like her and even sadder when you see people from the community agreeing with her.  

I've seen trans and non-binary fans saying that they don't feel safe going to her shows anymore now that she attracted the terf crowd to herself 

[HonourableVomit]

7 minutes ago, bestfiction said:

I've seen trans and non-binary fans saying that they don't feel safe going to her shows anymore now that she attracted the terf crowd to herself 

It's horrible but the mental image of some mid 40s TERFs witnessing Ramalama Bang Bang live kinda sends me 

[Headlock]

4 hours ago, JessPop said:

I do think 99.9% of doctors want the best for their patients and try as much as humanly possible to do no harm as their oath states. However; if one child is confused and ends up being a victim of medical malpractice as a result of that then it’s one too many. That’s why I believe we should have a federal law(s) in place that takes legal discretion away from doctors in this area and makes waiting to medically transition mandatory until at least the age of 18 with exemptions made in rare and or life threatening circumstances.

Literally no other medical procedure is regulated this way, apart from one notable exception that uses the same inflammatory language of “save the children!”: abortion. Adopting this self-righteous ~save the children!1!~ platform for incredibly rare exceptions due to individual and isolated malfeasance is the definition of right-wing propaganda.

[magicfever]

57 minutes ago, bestfiction said:

I've seen trans and non-binary fans saying that they don't feel safe going to her shows anymore now that she attracted the terf crowd to herself 

That's really the worst part of this all, isn't it? She had a lot of trans fans that now could be in actual danger at her shows. Not to mention the online abuse they might have already experienced from talking about this on X and in Roisin's comments on Instagram. 

 

[SpaceOddity]

Lmao she's spent years saying **** like "I feel like a drag queen" and "I'd be nowhere without my gay fanbase", adopting queer culture aesthetic and fashion down to a t, now all of a sudden it's "I don't aim my music directly at the pockets of any demographic". I thought this **** was so much smarter than that, what a disappointment. 

[SpaceOddity]

Good luck selling out shows and merchandise in the long run, dumbass. 

[Leptine]

13 minutes ago, SpaceOddity said:

Lmao she's spent years saying **** like "I feel like a drag queen" and "I'd be nowhere without my gay fanbase", adopting queer culture aesthetic and fashion down to a t, now all of a sudden it's "I don't aim my music directly at the pockets of any demographic". I thought this **** was so much smarter than that, what a disappointment. 

This only proves that the real "allies-supporters" even between female popstars-singers with a mainly LGBTQ+ fanbase and collaborators are really rare in reality, lot of people even in that field are just opportunistic in riding the wave of this community also in order to appear supportive just for covenience but in fact they don't care or not understand what it means being part of the LGBTQ+ community.

 

I'm pretty sure there are other Roisin Murphy out there, they're just more "clever" in hiding it, it has happened also with a showgirl-singer from my country that for years was considered a gay icon who performed at gay clubs and events with the LGBTQ+ community supporting her even when her career was in a deadlock period, only for her to comes out in the last years as catholic fascist against gay marriage and adoption, it's more common than what we thought.

[HonourableVomit]

I mean it's better than saying "I've spent years trying to separate queers from their money," it's hardly the worst thing about her statement  

[Vermillion]

I don't have the energy to swat down the falsehoods still coming up here that were already addressed in pages 1-7. Thanks to everyone that does.

[SpaceOddity]

52 minutes ago, HonourableVomit said:

I mean it's better than saying "I've spent years trying to separate queers from their money," it's hardly the worst thing about her statement  

Oh yeah, definitely, I'm just poking at the stupidity of it. As for the rest of the statement, she's uneducated and she should've shut the **** up. 

[CaptainMusic]

Her apology was terrible, sadly I wouldn’t be surprised if she becomes even bigger and gains a lot of new transphobic fans due to this.

[MusicIsMyMaster]

What I think we need to remember is that a lot of pop girls we know and love, do not actually walk into a studio and say im gonna make music for the gays or the LGBTQ community per say. I can say, that for myself, I can easily be blindsided by the hysteria of gay fandom and get overly excited for pop girls, (our queens and mothers) when they drop new music or slay us with new looks and outfits. But at the end of the day they are making music and art about how they feel about themselves and situations they've been in and how they like to communicate visually. If our community (LGBTQIA+) chooses to embrace them, that's on us. But, we cannot expect them to agree with everything that we may agree with.

 

Who's to say other artists don't feel the same way, or express ideologies just like Roisin does (or claims to)? We don't know. Roisin clearly stated that she is removing herself form this discourse (because she clearly doesn't know enough) and or is ashamed for saying what she said. She could've been way more clear and say that she has lots of learning to do in her message. 

 

I am a trans supporter through and through. What Roisin said is saddening and misguided, but if that's how she feels, it is what it is. Lets not forget she has children of her own. I myself could not imagine being a parent in todays day and age, with all the discourse that's going on. 

 

[Fleabag]

13 minutes ago, MusicIsMyMaster said:

What I think we need to remember is that a lot of pop girls we know and love, do not actually walk into a studio and say im gonna make music for the gays or the LGBTQ community per say. I can say, that for myself, I can easily be blindsided by the hysteria of gay fandom and get overly excited for pop girls, (our queens and mothers) when they drop new music or slay us with new looks and outfits. But at the end of the day they are making music and art about how they feel about themselves and situations they've been in and how they like to communicate visually. If our community (LGBTQIA+) chooses to embrace them, that's on us. But, we cannot expect them to agree with everything that we may agree with.

 

Who's to say other artists don't feel the same way, or express ideologies just like Roisin does (or claims to)? We don't know. Roisin clearly stated that she is removing herself form this discourse (because she clearly doesn't know enough) and or is ashamed for saying what she said. She could've been way more clear and say that she has lots of learning to do in her message. 

 

I am a trans supporter through and through. What Roisin said is saddening and misguided, but if that's how she feels, it is what it is. Lets not forget she has children of her own. I myself could not imagine being a parent in todays day and age, with all the discourse that's going on. 

 

This kind of rationalization would be much more believable if not for the comments she has made in the past:

https://twitter.com/imshanereaction/status/1696524423338357218?s=46&t=21YSQwhuj_3Zp6ZQzd-J8Q

 

[rihannafan]

9 hours ago, Daddy said:

What does that have to do with anything? It's a beautiful Irish name.

Nothing to do with her name. Her brand of indie is simply not one that usually leads to good music

Edited August 30, 2023 by rihannafan