discussion The left really be needing to mobilize like them other folks out here y'all

[BrentB]

 

It goes without saying that many left social media personalities are already doing the damn thing and giving it their all tackling false, tired peddled talking points about "lefties" and "libtards." But I feel like it's still not enough and we don't really talk much about mobilizing. 

 

Like let's face it. Attention spans are in the LOWEST pits of hell right now, out-of-context videos and info about us are always circulating, making their rounds like a plague AND sticking. Right-wing grifters STAY militantly recruiting fence sitters via TikTok on the daily. 

 

I feel as though, as frustrating and tedious as it sounds, we need to be on a MUCH HEAVIER code and vehemently topple over EVERY last misleading talking point, with statistictical backings, and doing so a matter-of-fact tone and delivery - with LESS reliance on emotion than logic - that will cause even the most charismatically right-wing personalities with a witty and dicy tongue to be a tongue-tied, stammering mess.

 

We also need to make "right wing-groomers" a thing. We need to keep reminding the GP that the church (aka the biggest institution that the right has to their repute) plays a HUGE role in sex/ child trafficking and SAs and its not just the "hollyweird left elites" doing this nefarious kinda sh*t like the Qanon'd narrative making the rounds  after The Sound of Freedom's popularity. 

 

We need to push buzzwords (extremely catchy ones too at that) against our opps. 

 

It's not enough to just sit and laugh at these dim-witted, swamp-dwellimg toads. Like I'm still seeing a lot of sitting duck syndrome going on among leftists. We need to move like bots. We need our "Ben Shapiro" and "Andrew Tate" type equivalents. The age old "Think of the Children" argumentative tactic is there at our disposal, yet we don't use it nearly enough on the opps. 

 

Does anyone here catch my drift? Hope I'm not taking in circles. 

Edited August 18, 2023 by BrentB

[vuelve88]

Guess I’m feeling unmoored 

 

Cant remember what I used to fight for 

Edited August 18, 2023 by vuelve88

[Aston Martin]

I read somewhere that around a third of any given population is always going to be predisposed to fascism. If that holds true, then we need to focus on both keeping that remaining 66% educated and getting that 33% OUT of power. Because that 33% doesn't care about facts, statistics, or actually being good people. A few of them may come around, but a vast majority of them won't. So I don't necessarily think that using their tactics back on them will be as effective as just focusing on getting people to vote them out of office/deplatforming them, but I'll take anything at this point. 

[Communion]

Liberals are more interested in venting online about how communism is bad than defending minorities, of course the right is going to be winning the disinformation war when the "center-left" constantly concedes so much ground to them.  At least in the Western world, the right are rushing to see how far-right they can get while the left is stifled by a capitalist, neoliberal establishment. 

[GraceRandolph]

I feel like the arguments about the Catholic Church and religious communities just go nowhere. People just have their minds made up about religion and logic can’t always help them. 

[Peak Now]

29 minutes ago, BrentB said:

Like let's face it. Attention spans are in the LOWEST pits of hell right now.

 

I feel as though, as frustrating and tedious as it sounds, we need to be on a MUCH HEAVIER code and vehemently topple over EVERY last misleading talking point, with statistictical backings, and doing so a matter-of-fact tone and delivery - with LESS reliance on emotion than logic - that will cause even the most charismatically right-wing personalities with a witty and dicy tongue to be a tongue-tied, stammering mess.

I think there's a contradiction here. As doomer mentality as it sounds, when people have the attention spans of goldfish they're not going to listen to your matter-of-fact tones. Sometimes people just want to be riled up.

[DAP]

We don’t have a left to safeguard us presently and that’s the problem. What remains today are fragmented groups decimated by years of state sponsored violence/suppression. Whereas right wing causes receive enormous funding and attention because A) they are complicit in the demands of the ruling class and B) they generate profit (for what are still corporations). We can still engage in a culture war struggle but the best pathway for a new left is to organize around labor. Appeal to peoples’ alienation about their jobs, teach them about unions and communal alternatives to employment like worker co-ops and councils, help democratize their workplaces. 

Edited August 18, 2023 by DAP

[Jotham]

43 minutes ago, Communion said:

Liberals are more interested in venting online about how communism is bad than defending minorities, of course the right is going to be winning the disinformation war when the "center-left" constantly concedes so much ground to them.

You're the one who complains 24/7 about liberals on this forum. 

[Communion]

2 minutes ago, Jotham said:

You're the one who complains 24/7 about liberals 

For being similar to who? For having what kind of views?

 

I hate liberals because they're like conservatives. You hate leftists because they're not like conservatives.

 

See the difference? People like you are ironically deeply where we are now, Hillary Clinton voting ass. 

 

Imagine if you didn't set America down the course of absolute **** bysupporting one of the most unpopular politicians in American history. 

[Bears01]

17 minutes ago, Jotham said:

You're the one who complains 24/7 about liberals on this forum. 

 

12 minutes ago, Communion said:

For being similar to who? For having what kind of views?

 

I hate liberals because they're like conservatives. You hate leftists because they're not like conservatives.

 

See the difference? People like you are ironically deeply where we are now, Hillary Clinton voting ass. 

 

Imagine if you didn't set America down the course of absolute **** bysupporting one of the most unpopular politicians in American history. 

I don’t mean to “both sides” you (because on pure Policy, I agree more with you Communion) but 2016 has to be let go….and I think liberals would be smarter to realize progressives are more on your side than conservatives are, and it wouldn’t be constructive to keep criticizing them. 
 

Building bridges to find areas of common agreement on left learning issues (we should all want better healthcare, action on climate change, woman having the right to choose, legalized weed, higher wages etc)>>>>>>fighting about who demonizes who more. 

[Communion]

18 minutes ago, Bears01 said:

but 2016 has to be let go

You can pick any point within politics and the point still stands.

 

Look at the UK. Jeremy Corbyn was called "a far left radical" and ran out of his party on baseless smears. Labour - meant to be the traditionally "left" wing party within British politics - is now ran by someone who:

• Calls free meals for school children reckless spending
• Supports keeping refugees in cramped barges where disease spreads
• Has doubled-down that trans women are men and "women can't have penises"

It's why the horse-shoe theory nonsense that was the political argument du jour for centrists was always nonsense. Years of being told the economic left were socially regressive only for there to be a more organized effort to block Medicare For All across party lines than to put a former president who tried to do a literal coup behind bars because some still think he'll be the easiest to win an election against. 

 

The weakening of the left - as in socialist politics and centrally planned economics - in favor of neoliberalism across the last 30 years has directly led to the rise of fascism and thus increased human suffering.

 

Literally anything else you've mentioned, like vague platitudes about "building bridges", is gobbledygook. It literally does not mean anything. You might as well be speaking and typing in Pig Latin. 

 

In America, ravenous neoliberalism is directly why there will now be generations of a far-right Supreme Court.

 

Over 400k Americans who died from COVID could be alive today if we had Medicare For All, and yet "the most progressive president in US history" in Joe Biden has spent his presidency pushing to privatize Medicare, let alone doing so in the wake of a pandemic? 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Communion

[Miss Show Business]

My views have always been complex. I'm pretty left wing on a lot of issues, but I'm also a pragmatist and a realist.

 

There are way too many people who actually, really fully believe, that communism is a good solution to the problems with Capitalism: and that's absolutely unrealistic and out of touch. Everybody wants to submit to all of nothing, black and white thinking and there's no room for anything in between: like the fact that you can believe Capitalism has flaws while also believing it is not nearly as bad as communism.

 

Perhaps, and I'm hoping, that most of these people are just online noise / trollbot farms and nothing more.

 

I'm absolutely willing to work together with people further left to me, but I'm out the minute you help Republicans win by refusing to vote for a more pragmatic option when your candidate lost a primary. We know exactly what happens now when "establishment" Dems win: look in Michigan where they won the trifecta. Free school breakfast and lunches for the whole state, LGBT rights expanded, abortion rights fought for by the governor and ultimately protected by a constitutional amendment, etc. They have been rolling out the legislation non stop since they got the trifecta and have enacted A LOT of positive changes for the people of Michigan, and all under "establishment" Dems people complain about. Is there room for them to do more? Absolutely. Is the establishment perfect? No. But it is FAR more preferable than what would happen under the fascist GOP.

 

So, I'm not ever going to bother with people who ignore reality and only vote for their own selfish reasons. This is my biggest problem with a lot of leftists. The purity politics, all or nothing thinking, etc has to stop or you won't ever find common ground with other people. I've supported both left leaning and "establishment" candidates, and I'm willing to cross over when I see fit, but there has to be common ground and realistic expectations, and a selfless mindset when voting instead of selfish.

[Bears01]

1 minute ago, Communion said:

You can pick any point within politics and the point still stands.

 

Look at the UK. Jeremy Corbyn was called "a far left radical" and ran out of his party on baseless smears. Labour - meant to be the traditionally "left" wing party within British politics - is now ran by someone who:

• Calls free meals for school children reckless spending
• Supports keeping refugees in cramped barges where disease spreads
• Has doubled-down that trans women are men and "women can't have penises"

It's why the horse-shoe theory nonsense that was the political argument du jour for centrists was always nonsense.

 

The weakening of the left - as in socialist politics and centrally planned economics - in favor of neoliberalism across the last 30 years has directly led to the rise of fascism and thus increase human suffering.

 

Literally anything else you've mentioned, like vague platitudes about "building bridges", is gobbledygook. It literally does not mean anything. You might as well be speaking and typing in Pig Latin. 

 

In America, ravenous neoliberalism is directly why there will now be generations of a far-right Supreme Court.

 

Over 400k Americans who died from COVID could be alive today if we have Medicare For All, and yet "the most progressive president in US history" in Joe Biden has spent his presidency pushing to privatize Medicare? 

I said I agreed with you from a policy standpoint sis. 
 

And I don’t disagree. Neoliberalism needs to die and we need to get back to expanding on the new deal era Policy. 
 

I just don’t agree that bringing up old wounds fixes the issue. 
 

What’s wrong for asking for unity? 
 

I come in peace, so let’s peacefully discuss this 

[LittleStarmen]

Hate and polemic topics will always get more attention of the commun uneducated folk.

 

The rest of the world is not left but common sense

[Communion]

18 minutes ago, Bears01 said:

What’s wrong for asking for unity?

Again, you're not saying anything. It's no different of a misnomer than right-wingers calling for debate for the sake of debate instead recognizing the material reality of the topics being discussed and how diametrically opposed forces are at odds with one another.

 

I simply pointed out that neoliberalism means that there is largely no left within the Western world - even places in Europe with large safety nets are seeing their centrists and the right work to dismantle these systems for profit.

 

There is no institutional left, especially in America of all places. Again, this is just a fact.

 

And in response, a very proudly, self-describing liberal user proved that point by revealing they think that billionaires and corporations who control our government using their money to ensure politicians who support universal healthcare are never elected is the same as... *checks notes* criticizing the Dem president for KEEPING Trump policies in place.

 

There is no debate needed. In fact, the left will likely never make headways in the US until they start silencing and censoring right-wing liberal voices by using the same tactics and grabs for power as them. 

 

So yes, in the topic of "how does the left push back on right-wing propaganda?" - the reality of needing to silence both conservative and liberal voices will have to come up.

 

Again, Labour went from a "tankie" who supported LGBTQ people to a "proud capitalist" who literally goes on national  TV to refer to trans women as "men". I see the problem. Hopefully others do too. 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Communion

[Peak Now]

I mean the discussion above has easily shown why the right is much more effective at propaganda, etc. than the left or liberals or whatever you want to call "people that aren't conservative" in the US. Keep a united front first and then we'll see
 

25 minutes ago, Communion said:

In America, ravenous neoliberalism is directly why there will now be generations of a far-right Supreme Court.

Ok, I have my grievances about Hillary like everyone else, but I really don't think she would have appointed Gorsuch, Kavanaugh or Barrett to the court. Even if Kennedy doesn't retire that would have been a 5-4 liberal majority.

Edited August 18, 2023 by AndThenTheCocaine

[Bears01]

2 minutes ago, Communion said:

Again, you're not saying anything. It's no different of a misnomer than right-wingers calling for debate for the sake of debate instead recognizing the material reality of the topics being discussed and how diametrically opposed forces are at odds with one another.

 

I simply pointed out that neoliberalism means that there is largely no left within the Western world - even places in Europe with large safety nets are seeing their centrists and the right work to dismantle these systems for profit.

 

There is no institutional left, especially in America of all places. Again, this is just a fact.

 

And in response, a very proudly, self-describing liberal user proved that point by revealing they think that billionaires and corporations who control our government using their money to ensure politicians who support universal healthcare are never elected is the same as... *checks notes* criticizing the Dem president for KEEPING Trump policies in place.

 

There is no debate needed. In fact, the left will likely never make headways in the US until they start silencing and censoring right-wing liberal voices by using the same tactics and grabs for power as them. 

Fair. I see your point. I disagree but I understand your point. I just felt it would be more productive to find areas where there’s agreement and work toward achieving those goals. 
 

There is probably policy points that you and other liberals would find agreement on and would want accomplished. 
 

That’s all I’m saying, if you disagree, I understand 

[EnigmaticAndroid]

1 hour ago, DAP said:

We don’t have a left to safeguard us presently and that’s the problem. What remains today are fragmented groups decimated by years of state sponsored violence/suppression. Whereas right wing causes receive enormous funding and attention because A) they are complicit in the demands of the ruling class and B) they generate profit (for what are still corporations). We can still engage in a culture war struggle but the best pathway for a new left is to organize around labor. Appeal to peoples’ alienation about their jobs, teach them about unions and communal alternatives to employment like worker co-ops and councils, help democratize their workplaces. 

Exactly this. The left needs to go back to their blue-collar, Average Joe messaging with updated policies. Being anti-elite, anti huge corps, feeling like the system is rigged, wanting more protection and advocacy for the lower classes, etc. are all bipartisan takes, the right has just bastardized what they mean and regurgitate it through the media. 

 

Hyperfocusing on social issues isn’t always a winning strategy even if the issues matter. Using obviously provocative slogans like "All Cops Are Bad" or "Defund the Police" just turn people off. The left needs to refocus and push progressive policies as common-sense ideas that benefit the average citizen while emphasizing the failures of the right. 

[Bears01]

17 minutes ago, AndThenTheCocaine said:

I mean the discussion above has easily shown why the right is much more effective at propaganda, etc. than the left or liberals or whatever you want to call "people that aren't conservative" in the US. Keep a united front first and then we'll see
 

Ok, I have my grievances about Hillary like everyone else, but I really don't think she would have appointed Gorsuch, Kavanaugh or Barrett to the court. Even if Kennedy doesn't retire that would have been a 5-4 liberal majority.

The American Right isn’t always United either to be fair. Specifically when it comes to going to the ballot box and voting on specific issues (candidates is a different story) 

 

Just last week in Ohio, the Ohio GOP tried their hardest and poured millions of dollars into putting literal tyranny minority rule into their state constitution, and many counties that voted for trump voted it down. 
 

It’s why issues the GOP strongly opposes (abortions access, Medicaid expansion, higher wages, ranked choice voting, hell legalized weed) passes in some very conservative areas like Missouri, Nebraska, Alaska, Arkansas, Kansas, Montana, Florida, South Dakota (and probably Ohio this fall). 
 

A lot of the GOPs newer voters aren’t the raging evangelicals that’s made up the GOP base the last several decades. Theyre Obama-Trump voters that don’t care if woman get abortions or that people can buy weed or just straight up oppose anything that can help people through the government…they’re dissatisfied blue collar workers who got tired of having their jobs shipped overseas and thought trump could fix that and nothing more 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Bears01

[Communion]

33 minutes ago, AndThenTheCocaine said:

but I really don't think she would have appointed 

Neoliberalism in the form of deregulation, free trade, and privatization created the material conditions that made hundreds of thousands of largely poor, black Americans stay home in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan in 2016. She was never going to win explicitly because people like her and her ideology was always going to continue inflicting the suffering that makes populations radicalized into far-right politics. Her loss was set forth in 1992. 

 

Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, etc. as faces of Third Way in a post-Reagan era manifested Donald Trump into existence and wielded into the world the perfect conditions for the rise of fascism in America.

 

So again, yes, if those who consider themselves on the "left" wish to wield the kind of power and influence the right does, they must do what it takes to platform their ideas and knock down those in their way - including liberals.

 

Leftists should frame someone who doesn't support Medicare For All as wanting to kill poor people in the very way the religious right frame being pro-abortion as being okay with killing babies. Bernie Sanders' campaign mentioned Biden's past of pushing to do away with social security maybe *once* and started pulling ahead in polls. (Of course then Sanders disavowed these as smears and said he thinks his good friend Joe is an honest man )

 

(For those still unsure if liberals harm leftists: a week after Sanders defended Biden from his own surrogate, Biden would go on the debate stage and say that Sanders' record made him responsible for the Charleston church shooting. Clearly he wanted to win.)

 

The strength of trans rights in the US is directly tied to emotionally-driven language activists have used when discussing these issues. "Oh, you don't want your trans daughter to have gender-affirming care? Then you'll have a dead son". The right have told us they hate the efficacy of these arguments. It's why they try to flatten the stakes and remove the consequences of their views to "just debate". Liberals who wish to hold "large tents" directly help conservatives in this goal by dismissing such language and framing issues as matters of opinion because they literally view politics as "just get A more votes than B".

Edited August 18, 2023 by Communion

[FreeXone]

The dems ****** up with Hillary and Biden! 
 

But yes , the left needs to MOBILIZE 

[Pop Life]

Shouldn't this be in Civics?

[Tsuko]

7 hours ago, BrentB said:

We also need to make "right wing-groomers" a thing. We need to keep reminding the GP that the church (aka the biggest institution that the right has to their repute) plays a HUGE role in sex/ child trafficking and SAs and its not just the "hollyweird left elites" doing this nefarious kinda sh*t like the Qanon'd narrative making the rounds  after The Sound of Freedom's popularity. 

Good luck with that. The Vatican City is going to be one of the headquarters for the New World Order (along with Washington DC and the City of London), they have Satanic symbols on some of their buildings, the Pope makes freemason symbols, historical evidence shows that the Catholic church leadership was infiltrated by Jesuits, the Pope pushes environmental causes, Black Lives Matter, supports immigration, etc.

 

The Vatican City is considered part of the elite, and the rampart sexual abuse of children that goes on there is par for the course and is expected considering the Catholic leadership are friends with the Clintons, the British royal family, etc.

 

Yes, I fully encourage you all to do research on the Catholic church leadership and Vatican City, and their history, their connections and their influence on the world. You will just find out they are on your side. You wouldn't have made the incredible social progress you did if it were not for the Catholic church leadership being infiltrated by Satanists many years ago.

 

Take a look at this: Did Pope Francis Meet With Bill Clinton and Alexander Soros? | Snopes.com

 

You're just going to be attacking yourself if you attack the Catholic church.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Tsuko

[DamianSolo]

It's definitely an uphill battle, one that I've grown tired of fighting—especially living where I do. You're right, though, conservatives are always energized and prepared for battle.

[Aethereal]

On 8/18/2023 at 5:39 AM, Communion said:

For being similar to who? For having what kind of views?

 

I hate liberals because they're like conservatives. You hate leftists because they're not like conservatives.

 

See the difference? People like you are ironically deeply where we are now, Hillary Clinton voting ass. 

 

Imagine if you didn't set America down the course of absolute **** bysupporting one of the most unpopular politicians in American history. 

Most people who identify as liberal are not thinking about the hypercapitalist economical meaning of the word or probably know nothing about it. Most of them are leftists maybe not as far-left as you are but still leftists. I did not know what liberal truly meant in it's economical sense till lately.