news Gay Man Stabbed to Death in Brooklyn for Vogueing

[Communion]

20 minutes ago, ugo said:

I mean I didn't lie

What makes the religions you are referring to *inherently* unable to be reformed and do you then suggest Islam is followed in the exact same way by all several billion practicioners worldwide? Would every country with a large Muslim population look exactly the same and have the same culture and hold the same values? 

[ugo]

5 minutes ago, Communion said:

What makes the religions you are referring to *inherently* unable to be reformed and do you then suggest Islam is followed in the exact same way by all several billion practicioners worldwide? Would every country with a large Muslim population look exactly the same and have the same culture and hold the same values? 

kinda all the same

Edited August 2, 2023 by ugo

[Communion]

31 minutes ago, Selaphiel said:

and saying it should be erased from the map

This is how you can tell you are a right wing troll who has succumb to the very essentialist, white supremacist ideologies being discussed. 

 

No one who criticizes Israel says Israel should be "wiped from the map". They say that Zionist Israel should be reformed out of existance. Zionism is the belief that there is somehow a "homeland" all Jewish people are entitled to and that said homeland must see its Jewish population maintain an ethnic majority.

 

Israel could exist without hassle if it does like the UN ruled and allow Palestinians to the right to return. This doesn't happen because Zionists say, "No, Israel is not Israel if it is not majority ethnically Jewish." So yes, by how Zionists define Israel, it should no longer exist, because ethno-states are bad and fascist. There's no meaningful difference between Israel as an ethno-state and Iran as a theocracy. You can't hate one without hating the other. 

 

The hypocrisy is then you saying those who want Israel to reform and can reform to stop the apartheid of Palestinians are "hateful" and "demonizing", yet you and others have no hesitation to suggest that billions of Muslims in the world are inherently bad people, will always be bad people, and can never become good people unless they stop being Muslim all together because Islam cannot be reformed. 

 

I'm supposed to feel it's wrong to hate an ultra-nationalist form of political Judaism (I wouldn't even call Zionism a form of Judaism given Christians can be Zionists but you've forced this nonsense framing) from someone who hates and demonizes...ALL Muslims?

[Communion]

9 minutes ago, ugo said:

kinda all the same

So all women in every Muslim country *spins wheel* wear the burqa?

[Mr. Blue_Shirt]

13 hours ago, BOOMBAYAH said:

The murderer and his clique were also religious teenagers. I can't help but think that the rise of Andrew Tate/hyper-masculinity and hyper-traditionalism content, specifically targeted at teenage boys and lonely men, is a significant factor contributing to this tragedy. They are literally grooming an entire generation of boys to harbor hatred towards women and LGBTQ+ individuals after all the progress we made in the 2010s. 

Oh absolutely these "alpha men" podcasters and influencers really f*cked up these generation of boys to come. And also the current rise of conservative media's fear mongering of LGBTQ+ people to be seen as groomers is truly the cherry on top of this

 

There's no way a sane person would see a man voguing with his friends in the gas station and the first thing that came on mind is to confront them and kill them

 

The brainwashing so real I'm so f*cking mad

[ugo]

11 minutes ago, Communion said:

So all women in every Muslim country *spins wheel* wear the burqa?

doesn't matter what they wear they mostly get mistreated 

[Communion]

9 minutes ago, ugo said:

doesn't matter what they wear they mostly get mistreated 

So women are banned from driving cars in every single Muslim-majority nation?

 

Surely that must be the case if Islam is an innate form of knowledge that none of its practitioneers could ever reform or change how it is followed based on personal interpretation?

Edited August 2, 2023 by Communion

[ugo]

3 minutes ago, Communion said:

So women are banned from driving cars in every single Muslim-majority nation?

 

Surely that must be the case if Islam is an innate form of knowledge that none of its practitioneers could ever reform or change how it is followed based on personal interpretation?

I never said that 

 

It's not innate but it's all based on an old story book. The fact is that the laws have not changed at all.

[Communion]

8 minutes ago, ugo said:

I never said that 

I mean, that quite literally is what you say when making statements like "Islam cannot be reformed". If Islam cannot be reformed, that would have to mean it is practice uniformly across the world with one sole interpretation.

 

8 minutes ago, ugo said:

The fact is that the laws have not changed at all

What do you believe it is called when Muslim-majority nations have different laws based on different interpretations of cultural values?

 

The irony is you're literally elevating conservative forms of Islam by making the absurd suggestion it is the one and only true Islam. 

 

Do you think suggestion to liberal Muslims that their religion is innately conservative and cannot be changed is more likely to make them 1) give up their liberal values or 2) give up their religion? Do you think the constant harassment and bullying that users like @Embustera get for being a liberal Muslim from reactionary non-Muslim will convince someone reading that their faith and Islam are the problems at hand?

Edited August 2, 2023 by Communion

[ugo]

7 minutes ago, Communion said:

I mean, that quite literally is what you say when making statements like "Islam cannot be reformed". If Islam cannot be reformed, that would have to mean it is practice uniformly across the world with one sole interpretation.

 

What do you believe it is called when Muslim-majority nations have different laws based on different interpretations of cultural values?

 

The irony is you're literally elevating conservative forms of Islam by making the absurd suggestion it is the one and only true Islam. 

 

Do you think suggestion to liberal Muslims that their religion is innately conservative and cannot be changed is more likely to make them 1) give up their liberal values or 2) give up their religion? Do you think the constant harassment and bullying that users like @Embustera get for being a liberal Muslim from reactionary non-Muslim will convince someone reading that their faith and Islam are the problems at hand?

Actions speak louder than words in the end...

Edited August 2, 2023 by ugo

[Communion]

2 minutes ago, ugo said:

Actions speaks louder than words in the end...

So Muslim-majority nations changing their laws (because we agree that not all Muslim nations have the same laws, right?) are...not actions? Huh?

[Selaphiel]

29 minutes ago, Communion said:

This is how you can tell you are a right wing troll who has succumb to the very essentialist, white supremacist ideologies being discussed. 

 

No one who criticizes Israel says Israel should be "wiped from the map". They say that Zionist Israel should be reformed out of existance. Zionism is the belief that there is somehow a "homeland" all Jewish people are entitled to and that said homeland must see its Jewish population maintain an ethnic majority.

 

Israel could exist without hassle if it does like the UN ruled and allow Palestinians to the right to return. This doesn't happen because Zionists say, "No, Israel is not Israel if it is not majority ethnically Jewish." So yes, by how Zionists define Israel, it should no longer exist, because ethno-states are bad and fascist. There's no meaningful difference between Israel as an ethno-state and Iran as a theocracy. You can't hate one without hating the other. 

 

The hypocrisy is then you saying those who want Israel to reform and can reform to stop the apartheid of Palestinians are "hateful" and "demonizing", yet you and others have no hesitation to suggest that billions of Muslims in the world are inherently bad people, will always be bad people, and can never become good people unless they stop being Muslim all together because Islam cannot be reformed. 

 

I'm supposed to feel it's wrong to hate an ultra-nationalist form of political Judaism (I wouldn't even call Zionism a form of Judaism given Christians can be Zionists but you've forced this nonsense framing) from someone who hates and demonizes...ALL Muslims?

Why did you put quotation marks on the word homeland? Are you implying Jewish people have no homeland and are not indigenous to Israel despite all the historical, archaeological and even genetic evidence?

 

And you have to be really disingenuous to pretend a lot of anti-Israel activists are not calling for the total annihilation of Israel and for its citizens to be expelled or even killed.

 

Can you cite a precedent of a state letting in millions of foreigners who never set foot in that state under an international right of return as opposed to its own immigration policy? 
 

Palestinians should absolutely have their own state in the West Bank, not in Israel proper. Yes, Israel should remain a democratic and Jewish-majority state. History has shown us what happens when Jews live as a minority, and given that most Israeli descend from either Holocaust survivors or Jews who were ethnically cleansed from Muslim countries I don’t think you can argue against that.

 

 

Anyway, Islam can and should be reformed. But so far there hasn’t been any signs that’s going to happen any time soon. 

[ugo]

9 minutes ago, Communion said:

So Muslim-majority nations changing their laws (because we agree that not all Muslim nations have the same laws, right?) are...not actions? Huh?

Idk this is a thread about homophobia and to this day most muslim countries remain homophobic 

[Communion]

12 minutes ago, Selaphiel said:

Can you cite a state letting in millions of foreigners who never set foot in that state under an international right of return

Yes. See: Israel

 

So again, for the folks at home watching, the current right-wing narrative is:

 

"Ethno-states are bad" = Demonizing

"You can't civilize Muslims" = Reasonable

 

Hmm 

[Communion]

15 minutes ago, ugo said:

most muslim countries l

This took place in Brooklyn?

[ugo]

1 minute ago, Communion said:

This took place in Brooklyn?

I mean you were talking about islam on the global scale...but anyway this is a hate crime done by a religious man

[Communion]

Just now, ugo said:

I mean you were talking about islam on the global scale

Sis, you can't be this dense. 

 

It'd be easier for you to admit you hastily said something silly (as opposed to the only other option of the unintentional racism being intentional) than to continue to try and find some defense that made your illogical suggestion make sense. 

 

So a conservative Muslim in Brooklyn is evidence that "Islam cannot be reformed" but *spins wheel* progressive Muslims in *spins wheel again* Tunisia doesn't suggest the opposite? 

 

It's unclear what you actually want. Do you want Islam to be less conservative and for those who follow Islam to somehow magically no longer exist?

[ugo]

7 minutes ago, Communion said:

Sis, you can't be this dense. 

 

It'd be easier for you to admit you hastily said something silly (as opposed to the only other option of the unintentional racism being intentional) than to continue to try and find some defense that made your illogical suggestion make sense. 

 

So a conservative Muslim in Brooklyn is evidence that "Islam cannot be reformed" but *spins wheel* progressive Muslims in *spins wheel again* Tunisia doesn't suggest the opposite? 

 

It's unclear what you actually want. Do you want Islam to be less conservative and for those who follow Islam to somehow magically no longer exist?

Tunisia is literally not gay friendly 

[~Start The Music]

This breaks my heart :( He looked like a lovely person to be around. I am so sad this stuff still is the norm. 

[FreeXone]

Killed over islam. Smdh

[B-Luke]

Heinous disgusting crime

[Communion]

17 minutes ago, ugo said:

Tunisia is literally not gay friendly 

I refuse to believe that someone who is both logical and literate could read the post being responded to and think this is a coherent response. What? Huh? What syntactically is not making sense to you? 

 

Eastern Europe is not gay friendly (we'll stick with laws since you seem unsure of what you're trying to argue) and yet somehow you'd understand why the sentiment "Christianity cannot be reformed" is silly. 

 

Please stop diverting and answer this very basic question:

27 minutes ago, Communion said:

It's unclear what you actually want. Do you want Islam to be less conservative or for those who follow Islam to somehow magically no longer exist?

Do you want Islam to be less conservative or for those who follow Islam to somehow magically no longer exist?

Edited August 2, 2023 by Communion

[ugo]

9 minutes ago, Communion said:

I refuse to believe that someone who is both logical and literate could read the post being responded to and think this is a coherent response. What? Huh? What syntactically is not making sense to you? 

 

Eastern Europe is not gay friendly (we'll stick with laws since you seem unsure of what you're trying to argue) and yet somehow you'd understand why the sentiment "Christianity cannot be reformed" is silly. 

 

Please stop diverting and answer this very basic question:

Do you want Islam to be less conservative or for those who follow Islam to somehow magically no longer exist?

I did not praise christianity either 

[Communion]

6 minutes ago, ugo said:

I did not praise christianity either 

You're diverting again. 

 

No one is talking about praise. You said Islam uniquely cannot be reformed. You explicitly are not including in that category religions that meet the same criteria you've listed as for why. 

 

Again: do you want less conservative Muslims or no Muslims at all?

[Steve Johnson]

So sad. RIP