Liberal Americans of ATRL, is there anything that you agree on with the Conservatives

[Rotunda]

15 minutes ago, Artist said:

 DEI whether forced or not is pivotal for change. I can't believe someone would type such a thing and then use their education and race as a frame. Look at all the laws being reversed, if DEI efforts weren't there America would say welcome to the 1860's. But yeah studies and background.

I’m asking for more substantial DEI dummy rather than minimal efforts that are used to distract from larger scale that allow companies and other individuals to posture as if they have made commitments to improving outcomes for minorities. What’s not clicking?

 

My point is that conservatives and I may both currently dislike DEI as it is employed in the status quo but for opposite reasons because I am able to recognize the ways in which certain applications of it are used as PR rather than as means for actually helping people.

 

Maybe if you re-read my post instead of rushing to downvote and reply, you would have seen where it was obvious that I was saying our current attempts are insufficient. 
 

 

Problematic applications of DEI include:

 

- small scale efforts to recruit minorities to lower level positions in ORGs but no desire for diversity as you go up the food chain 

 

- having mandatory workshops/sessions on DEI but refusing to have corporate policies that punish discrimination or that encourage people to report discrimination 

 

- creating working groups aimed at addressing complaints from diverse populations but never acting on those complaints

 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Rotunda

[Afterglow]

2 hours ago, Rotunda said:

 What are you talking about? What way do you think I’m thinking?
 

I said that the “power + prejudice” definition of racism as deployed by people in real life is oversimplified.

 

This is because people often interpret it as meaning that only the dominant group can be racist, when power, as defined by Patricia Hill Collins is contextual and operates in a variety of different ways (structural, interpersonal, hegemonic, etc.). 
 

The common refrain that “XYZ can’t be racist, just prejudiced” is used to shut down what should be fruitful conversations because people haven’t considered that power goes beyond the institutional level. 

Sis thats exactly what it is. Stop talking yourself in circles. The dominant group sets the status quo, which is set in such a way that makes it almost unattainable for many minorities, especially black people. When a person of color reaches such heights, its highly regarded and publicized by the media as such to detract from the way the system has been set up to ensure certain groups stay in certain places. 

 

Cmon now. Dont let it work on you. No, black people cannot be racist against white people. Prejudiced? Absolutely. Due to recent and past events, a preconceived (and many times rational) fear and distrust of white people is very common in the black community. I truly wonder why. What are you even talking about? Disappointing. 

[Happylittlepunk]

I think conservatives can agree that housing cost and rent is crazy, a lot issues regarding economics, especially taxes is pretty bad too, same thing regarding transportation or lack of. 

[brooklyndaddy]

I’m not sure if I really think trans women (especially those who have not physically transitioned at all) should play in women’s sports but I don’t really care and it’s such a tiny issue. That said, I think it would also be an issues it trans men post HRT were forced to play in women’s sports.

 

If all trans people are just as “valid” whether they get on HRT or not then doesn’t that mean anyone can identify as trans and compete as the opposite sex? Again, really don’t think this is an important issue but when it comes down to objective physical attributes… the narrative of “all are valid and welcome” kind of loses its teeth.

Genuinely want to learn here. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by brooklyndaddy

[Rotunda]

22 minutes ago, Afterglow said:

Sis thats exactly what it is. Stop talking yourself in circles. The dominant group sets the status quo, which is set in such a way that makes it almost unattainable for many minorities, especially black people. When a person of color reaches such heights, its highly regarded and publicized by the media as such to detract from the way the system has been set up to ensure certain groups stay in certain places. 

 

Cmon now. Dont let it work on you. No, black people cannot be racist against white people. Prejudiced? Absolutely. Due to recent and past events, a preconceived (and many times rational) fear and distrust of white people is very common in the black community. I truly wonder why. What are you even talking about? Disappointing. 

I don’t care what HBCU you, your daddy, or your grandaddy went to, I’m not having a debate with someone who hasn’t bothered to engage with the substance of my thoughts (or the thoughts of other scholars). I’ve spent my whole life around Black people, so I don’t need to posture and call a Black person “disappointing” when I find myself in a conversation I’m not smart enough to understand. 
 

None of what you’re saying is responsive to what I’m saying, which is that a conversation that defines racism as “power + prejudice” needs to be contextual to the kind of power being discussed. Not every interaction is white on black. Nowhere did I even saying anything about a white on black interaction where the Black person would be discriminating against a white person. You are arguing about things that never came out of my mouth because you haven’t opened a book. And you are the one who can’t fathom the possibility that the way you employ the definition of “racism” is insufficient. 

 

Nowhere did I say that successful Black people serve as evidence against the larger systems of inequality, prejudice, or racism. I said that power is contextual and needs to be understood to operate differently in each interaction. This does not detract from the larger system of antiblackness we live under.

 

A recommendation: 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Intersectionality-Concepts-Patricia-Hill-Collins/dp/0745684491

Edited July 24, 2023 by Rotunda

[Afterglow]

8 minutes ago, Rotunda said:

I don’t care what HBCU you, your daddy, or your grandaddy went to, I’m not having a debate with someone who hasn’t bothered to engage with the substance of my thoughts (or the thoughts of other scholars). I’ve spent my whole life around Black people, so I don’t need to posture and call people “disappointing” when I find myself in a conversation I’m not smart enough to understand. 
 

None of what you’re saying is responsive to what I’m saying, which is that a conversation that defines racism as “power + prejudice” needs to be contextual to the kind of power being discussed. Not every interaction is white on black. Nowhere did I even saying anything about a white on black interaction . You are arguing about things that never came out of my mouth because you haven’t opened a book. 

 

Nowhere did I say that successful Black propped detract from the larger systems of inequality, prejudice, or racism. I said that power is contextual and needs to be understood to operate differently in each interaction. This does not detract from the larger system of antiblackness we live under.

 

A recommendation: 

 

https://www.dukeupress.edu/intersectionality-as-critical-social-theory

 

Sis more talking in circles and tumbling around the fact that you have literally no idea what you're saying at this point and are just using words at this point. Sis words need meaning behind them. 

 

Then you start the conversation touting your "education" on the topic now all of a sudden you don't care about education 

 

You haven't made a single point in this thread nor given a single answer other than to downplay systemic racism which you most certainly did and then lack a double down on your entire argument here. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Afterglow

[Rotunda]

Just now, Afterglow said:

Sis more talking in circles and tumbling around the fact that you have literally no idea what you're saying at this point and are just using words at this point. Sis words need meaning behind them. 

 

Then you start the conversation touting your "education" on the topic now all of a sudden you don't care about education 

 

You haven't made a single point in this thread nor given a single answer other than to downplay systemic racism which you most certainly did and then lack a double down on your point. 

What do you want me to answer?

[Rotunda]

1 minute ago, Afterglow said:

Then you start the conversation touting your "education" on the topic now all of a sudden you don't care about education 

I literally told you what book to read that would explain this to you but you’d rather call me some disappointment as a Black person than engage with my simple contention that “power” is more than just structural power. 

[Afterglow]

5 minutes ago, Rotunda said:

What do you want me to answer?

Do you believe that black people can be racist against white people?

 

[Rotunda]

1 minute ago, Afterglow said:

Do you believe that black people can be racist against white people?

 

Depending on the context, yes. 
 

For example I used to teach at a public school that was 99% Black. A Black student getting their friends to bully the White student for being White would be racist. It would be an example of interpersonal racism where the power is rooted in the social capital that Blackness holds in that specific community. 
 

This however does not imply that there is a structural/institutional level of discrimination being done onto the white student, nor does it imply that the racism extends beyond this specific interaction.

 

Understanding power is contextual means recognizing that at one time we could hold power in some domains while lacking it in others, and have the capacity to do harm in some domains that we can’t or don’t in others.  
 

Now, I understand you’re not going to agree with me, and will argue there’s a level of value to the distinction between being prejudiced and being racist.
 

My questions to you are: what is the value of this distinction to you? When a hate crime is committed by a Black person against an another minority, is it prejudice or racism? Why? Should those crimes be tried or understood differently? 
 

https://blackfeminisms.com/matrix/

[Raphy23]

I agree that gay marriage should be legal. In my country that’s not an issue for conservative politicians. 

[Afterglow]

6 minutes ago, Rotunda said:

Depending on the context, yes. 
 

For example I used to teach at a public school that was 99% Black. A Black student getting their friends to bully the White student for being White would be racist. It would be an example of interpersonal racism where the power is rooted in the social capital that Blackness holds in that specific community. 
 

This however does not imply that there is a structural/institutional level of discrimination being done onto the white student, nor does it imply that the racism extends beyond this specific interaction.

 

Understanding power is contextual means recognizing that at one time we could hold power in some domains while lacking it in others, and have the capacity to do harm in some domains that we can’t or don’t in others.  
 

Now, I understand you’re not going to agree with me, and will argue there’s a level of value to the distinction between being prejudiced and being racist.
 

My questions to you are: what is the value of this distinction to you? When a hate crime is committed by a Black person against an another minority, is it prejudice or racism? Why? Should those crimes be tried or understood differently? 
 

https://blackfeminisms.com/matrix/

 

The fact that I knew all of this would cumulate into this comment from you which is exactly why I asked that question

 

[helikesitheymikey]

That they should go to whatever heaven they think is waiting for them. I would just prefer it to happen now.

[Rotunda]

To give you another example @Afterglow, a Middle Eastern employee at the convenience store I used to go to basically everyday serviced an almost entirely Black clientele. His census designation is White (which is a convo for another day). On more than one occasion he was the target of racial epithets and rants being thrown his way by his customers. Realistically, if he said he was the victim of racism you wouldn’t look at him and say “actually you experienced prejudice, Black people can’t be racist “. 
 

This is a fairly online manner of speaking that is used to minimize the impact that people’s words and actions have on others by implying there is less intensity to the harm done when we don’t perceive ourselves as having institutional power, which ignores the other forms of power that exist (I.e: the interpersonal power that comes from being in the social majority in your specific community).
 

This isn’t to say that Black people don’t experience a disproportionate share of racism or a disproportionate share of the impacts, but it is to say that the obsession with telling people our actions are prejudiced and not racist misses the mark from the real conversation which should be about why the action occurred at all.

 

Just now, Afterglow said:

 

The fact that I knew all of this would cumulate into this comment from you which is exactly why I asked that question

 

Can you answer the questions though? You’ve made an ask of me and I’ve engaged in good faith. Can you do the same?

 

[Rotunda]

@Artist @DirtyPony87 if you have any questions I’m also willing to address them. I just personally don’t like the bastardizing of my words to make it seem like I’m advocating for something that I’m not. My dislike of current DEI practices is solely based on my belief that a litany of them don’t do enough but give the appearance that they do. I want DEI initiatives that are focused on tangible gains for those of us who belong to underrepresented grounds. 
 

The recent exodus of Hollywood executives from their DEI roles speaks to this failure of companies to do the work: https://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/12/6-dei-leaders-just-left-roles-in-hollywood-media-its-part-of-a-larger-problem.html

Edited July 24, 2023 by Rotunda

[Artist]

1 minute ago, Rotunda said:

@Artist if you have any questions I’m also willing to address them. I just personally don’t like the bastardizing of my words to make it seem like I’m advocating for something that I’m not. My dislike of current DEI practices is solely based on my belief that a litany of them don’t do enough but give the appearance that they do. I want DEI initiatives that are focused on tangible gains for those of us who belong to underrepresented grounds. 

There's an opportunity for you to work on your delivery/framing. I understand what you're trying to say. However, you can't say you share a dislike for DEI like conservatives and then attempt to advocate for it in the same breath. You're pushing for effective implementation and conservatives are asking for removal. How exactly is that dislike the same? I am surprised with all the research, you haven't been able to frame it better. This isn't shade, serious question.

[Rotunda]

11 minutes ago, Artist said:

There's an opportunity for you to work on your delivery/framing. I understand what you're trying to say. However, you can't say you share a dislike for DEI like conservatives and then attempt to advocate for it in the same breath. You're pushing for effective implementation and conservatives are asking for removal. How exactly is that dislike the same? I am surprised with all the research, you haven't been able to frame it better. This isn't shade, serious question.

I was very clear in my first post that I dislike the DEI efforts conservatives  dislike but for very different reasons. I said in the posts that I was advocating for pushes for actual action in regards to DEI. Perhaps you glanced over the verbiage? It seems like the rest of the people who upvoted it got the point. Even Afterglow, who you quoted, wasn’t even fighting me on that specific section of my argument, they disagreed with my articulation of why the application of “prejudice + power” as a definition of racism is largely insufficient. 
 

Nowhere were you supposed to think that my arguments were the same as what conservatives think. It seems you may struggle with reading comprehension. I literally juxtaposed their stance with my stance to articulate why we may hate the same things but we aren’t actually aligned.

 

I’d have more respect for you if you just chalked it up to a misunderstanding, but now you want to lecture me about how my ATRL post wasn’t fine tuned enough for you to comprehend. I’m sorry for assuming you’re more intelligent than you are. I’ll be sure to dumb my posts down in the future for your benefit.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Rotunda

[teresaguidice]

2 hours ago, Artist said:

 DEI whether forced or not is pivotal for change. I can't believe someone would type such a thing and then use their education and race as a frame. Look at all the laws being reversed, if DEI efforts weren't there America would say welcome to the 1860's. But yeah studies and background.

DEI is a big umbrella obviously and i don't claim to know everyone's experience but having worked at two big "liberal" tech companies since 2020 when lack of DEI became a high PR risk and a slew of new measures were added, i can tell you from personal experience how empty and meaningless the platitudes of corporate DEI efforts can be. they serve as lawsuit insurance, PR protection, and fodder for recruitment meanwhile any role above middle management remains 75% men and 95% white. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by teresaguidice

[Rotunda]

3 minutes ago, teresaguidice said:

DEI is a big umbrella obviously and i don't claim to know everyone's experience but having worked at two big "liberal" tech companies since 2020 when lack of DEI became a high PR risk and a slew of new measures were added, i can tell you from personal experience how empty and meaningless the platitudes of corporate DEI efforts can be. they serve as lawsuit insurance, PR protection, and fodder for recruitment. 

Let’s not forget Wells Fargo literally conducting fake interviews with minority applicants to pretend like they met their DEI commitments.

 

https://fortune.com/2022/06/09/wells-fargo-federal-investigation-fake-job-interviews-minority-candidates-report-says/amp/

[Somnambulist]

Very little - but I absolutely hate that putting up giant tents with drugs and junk everywhere isn’t against the law. We mandated masks and forced businesses to close during the pandemic to prevent disease (and it was necessary)  but somehow people literally shitting in the street or living with fleas and rats isn’t a public health crisis. I’m in LA , and some of these people need to be forced into treatment or meds, they’re walking zombies- it’s horrific and inhumane to them, certainly more than giving them a shot by medicating them and giving them resources to get out of that life. 

[DamianSolo]

The Second Amendment. But I do also call for a much heavier sense of regulation and control than what we currently have.

[Dessy]

That Biden sucks

[Communion]

17 hours ago, Somnambulist said:

but somehow people literally shitting in the street or living with fleas and rats isn’t a public health crisis. 

Where do you want them to go?

[Somnambulist]

21 hours ago, Communion said:

Where do you want them to go?

This is a complicated question - because even if I had a magic wand and could get everyone affordable housing and resources to get cleaned up they’d still have to want the help. You can’t force anyone. 
 

I work with homeless people quite a bit for my job, and I know MANY people actually DO want help, it’s a matter of building trust- and I get that. But allowing people to literally trash their communities with no consequence isn’t an answer either, especially people with mental illness. 
 

We’re so broken when letting people sleep on the sidewalk in their own feces is somehow “more humane” to some people than getting them help and resources. Just sad all the way around. It’s a tough issue. 

[Mezter]

I can't think of a single thing. Conservative Americans have the worst takes on everything