gotportugal Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 7 hours ago, Trent W said: I feel like commercially yes. Britney was closer to him in celebrity and impact.
Cbreezy Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 1 hour ago, SlowGinFizzzz said: My post only consists of three sentences overall, though, and I included the first two of them to illustrate why it's a flawed comparison in the first place, regardless of whether you think Taylor or Beyoncé is bigger. But again, other users have already explained that more eloquently and you still refuse to see the point, so I'll save myself the energy and settle for "agree to disagree". I'd honestly just ignore 'em. It's clear there's a dedication to pushing a particular agenda (Taylor being in anyway comparable to MJ). Any stances to the contrary (such as ours) are pegged as being "not an answer to the question". If there was even an attempt at objective engagement with the points we raised then it'd be crystal clear that we answered the question already and even helpfully expanded on why lol. 2
Marry The Gods Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 7 hours ago, Trent W said: I feel like commercially yes. Britney was closer to him in celebrity and impact. This 6 hours ago, Arrows said: Eminem is the only other contender imo. All the others have either celebrity power or music but not both Eminem? Why him? Genuinely curious as I don't follow charts and streams but I feel like he hasn't been a big thing for years now. 6 hours ago, dirrtydiana said: Yes Hide contents Hide contents After Madonna, Whitney, Shania, Britney, Shakira, Beyonce, Gaga and Adele 5 hours ago, Dr. Alexander said: Michael Jackson was able to appeal to the Black and white demographic. That’s why he was so big in America. Basing off of how white and beige her concert attendance is, Taylor is nowhere near being the biggest artist since Michael. Too unseasoned. Only appeals to white consumers. That’s her market. Beyoncé is the biggest as she’s been able to build a foundation within both markets. Huh? I know that Eras tour video in Atlanta went viral for all of those white swifities entering the subway train but a lot of other dates clearly shows how diverse her fanbase is. I'm not a fan of Taylor but I actually know a lot of hispanics that are into her music even if its for guilty pleasure. My best friend, who is Dominican and mostly listens to hip hop and raggaeton, attended the Eras show in Jersey and has been a Taylor fan for decades. She had a blast at the Eras tour along with her group of friends who are also Dominican and Puerto Rican I'm also pretty sure Taylor Swift also has a big Asian fanbase. 4 hours ago, Inhwan said: * Acting as if Asians & Hispanic do not exist Asians and Hispanics are always left out of the equation when it comes to pop star demographics lol.
Dr. Alexander Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 4 hours ago, Cbreezy said: No. And it's primarily because that scale of fame is essentially impossible to achieve or come anywhere close to in today's day and age. Not just from a sales perspective, either. Michael had and HAS a form of universal and most importantly cross-cultural reach and resonance that Taylor can't rival. He has every single base covered (old, young, Black, White, Pop, and everything in between) and crucially MEANS something to each of them at the apex level. I can tell you for free that, as a POC, there is not a single circle I've ever been in or close to that has given any kind of damn about "Taylor Swift". Know her? Yes. See her success? Yes? Give a damn? Hell no. She's wildly popular...globally huge...but I'd say she has a concentrated resonance with a hyper-specific audience (mainstream Pop lovers and dare I say *mostly* non POCs). Nothing wrong with it, but it's important to note. MJ also crossed countless genres and thus picked up love, praise, and a diverse base from them all: Pop, R&B, Rock, and Dance. That is not Taylor's edit. I'll go a step further and say that MJ's unparalleled status is rendered all the more impactful because he is a POC (spare me the jokes). To bulldoze barriers and be accepted as the #1 above ALL as a POC (when those barriers were installed to keep you off that exact spot) makes the fact you made it there hit different on so many levels. Taylor, by comparison, actually is the example of what Hollywood tells us is "supposed" to be aspired to and succeed (sound, image, aesthetic). That's not to minimize her journey or success, but it also means that it's impossible (IMO) to put her in the same convo as an MJ. As there are too many ways in which her flavor of success/impact can't compete. Also, IMO, today's music audience is hyper-fragmented. The Pop fans sit on one table, the R&B fans across the room on another, the Hip-Hop fans close to them (but not on the same table), and the Country fans way over in the corner. That all-encompassing mass audience that consumed music and musicians via the handful of mediums available in the 80s and 90s (like MTV) doesn't exist. As such, it makes it hard for there to ever truly be those universal, appeal-to-all, loved-by-all artists like the MJs and Madonnas ever again. Perhaps controversial to post here, but I'd say the nearest we have to that is probably Beyonce...for much of the reasons I shared about MJ above. Taylor's in her own lane and category and it's iconic and impactful in its own right.
Cbreezy Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 6 hours ago, Badgalbriel said: Having black or white fans is irrelevant. The amount of records sold is what determines how big an artist is. What an obtuse, asinine, and ill-informed thing to say. At the same time, it totally explains your stance and inability to understand the very logical posts others have put forth. As @Dr. Alexander pointed out, any truly universal star will be loved and actively celebrated by a wide range of cultures, colors, and genres. That is not Taylor's edit. Her popularity is over-indexed / most represented in a very specific audience. Let's just be honest: caucasian Pop music lovers. And there's nothing wrong with that. That said, your argument is the definition of flawed because you're effectively suggesting she somehow can be the biggest among all, yet we've pointed out that there are very commercially-impactful audiences that do not give a single "f" about a "Taylor Swift" (see: R&B/Hip-Hop lovers and most Black people tbh). And there's also nothing wrong with that. Taylor is not losing any money nor sleep over that. She has her audience, her lane, and her huge impact. It's ok. But again, this re-affirms why she cannot and should not be even discussed in the context of an MJ: who by contrast IS relevant and resonant will ALL audiences. IMO, at the crux of the answer to the OP, is the reality that any discussion about the "biggest music star" in any capacity must veer beyond "she/he sold xyz". Sales alone are not what makes MJ the biggest. I'd argue it's a combination of numbers, his game-changing impact artistically AND his deep, deep, deep-rooted popularity across a WIDE RANGE of people. With those as the metrics IMO, the only real comparator in today's age is Beyonce. Something the respect she gets from acts like Taylor and Adele (who sell more than her) supports. But I don't think the girls are ready for that conversation. 1 2
Raspberries Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 Yes. The biggest acts of all time in the US are Elvis, The Beatles, Michael Jackson and Taylor Swift
Raspberries Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 Not someone with a Chris Brown username typing paragraphs in here 2 1
FSXP Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 Commercially, maybe. But I think once you hit a certain state of celebrity, they’re all equal in fame. If you know Taylor Swift, you know Beyoncé, you know Whitney, you know Mariah, you know Madonna, you Rihanna and so on.
Cbreezy Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 2 minutes ago, Raspberries said: Not someone with a Chris Brown username typing paragraphs in here It's not actually Chris Brown-related ironically. Even if it did, it does not negate a thing said. I actually like and really respect Taylor's hustle, but there's a running theme among "some" of the Swifties of a lack of objectivity that I constantly see. With a scoop of All Lives Matter. Still can't believe someone actually wrote that the ethnic and cultural make-up of an artist's fans "don't matter". 1
Raspberries Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 8 minutes ago, Cbreezy said: It's not actually Chris Brown-related ironically. Even if it did, it does not negate a thing said. I actually like and really respect Taylor's hustle, but there's a running theme among "some" of the Swifties of a lack of objectivity that I constantly see. With a scoop of All Lives Matter. Still can't believe someone actually wrote that the ethnic and cultural make-up of an artist's fans "don't matter". Who cares. That study that was done a few months ago has her fanbase reflecting the US's racial makeup almost identically Taylor is without a doubt the biggest act in the US since Michael Jackson, who was the biggest since The Beatles etc 2
Dr. Alexander Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 40 minutes ago, Cbreezy said: What an obtuse, asinine, and ill-informed thing to say. At the same time, it totally explains your stance and inability to understand the very logical posts others have put forth. As @Dr. Alexander pointed out, any truly universal star will be loved and actively celebrated by a wide range of cultures, colors, and genres. That is not Taylor's edit. Her popularity is over-indexed / most represented in a very specific audience. Let's just be honest: caucasian Pop music lovers. And there's nothing wrong with that. That said, your argument is the definition of flawed because you're effectively suggesting she somehow can be the biggest among all, yet we've pointed out that there are very commercially-impactful audiences that do not give a single "f" about a "Taylor Swift" (see: R&B/Hip-Hop lovers and most Black people tbh). And there's also nothing wrong with that. Taylor is not losing any money nor sleep over that. She has her audience, her lane, and her huge impact. It's ok. But again, this re-affirms why she cannot and should not be even discussed in the context of an MJ: who by contrast IS relevant and resonant will ALL audiences. IMO, at the crux of the answer to the OP, is the reality that any discussion about the "biggest music star" in any capacity must veer beyond "she/he sold xyz". Sales alone are not what makes MJ the biggest. I'd argue it's a combination of numbers, his game-changing impact artistically AND his deep, deep, deep-rooted popularity across a WIDE RANGE of people. With those as the metrics IMO, the only real comparator in today's age is Beyonce. Something the respect she gets from acts like Taylor and Adele (who sell more than her) supports. But I don't think the girls are ready for that conversation. Perfect analysis. Justin Bieber is more in line than Taylor Swift and that is simply because he has been able to be prominent in mostly every corner of the mainstream music market and in different demographics. You go to a white space? You hear Bieber and one of his pop records. You go to a Black space? You hear Journals, Peaches, or one of his collaborations with Quavo, DJ Khaled, etc. You go to a Latin space? You hear Despacito. Taylor hasn’t been able to do this and trust, she’s been trying for years to accomplish this hence her attempts with Ice Spice, Kendrick, Future, and then bringing on guests on tour such as MJB. She simply doesn’t have that universal appeal, and she knows. 1
Raspberries Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 Not Justin Bieber supposedly being more in line to be called the biggest since MJ than Taylor The lengths some of you go to in order to discredit her
Raspberries Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 1 minute ago, Phaunzie said: Drake, Rihanna, Madonna are all bigger. Not one of these people are bigger than Taylor in the US Especially not Rihanna. And Drake has had to cancel dates on this tour due to low ticket sales and his last project was a massive bomb The only one even in contention is Madonna in the mid-to-late 1980s 1
OCBoy212 Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 8 hours ago, Dr. Alexander said: Michael Jackson was able to appeal to the Black and white demographic. That’s why he was so big in America. Basing off of how white and beige her concert attendance is, Taylor is nowhere near being the biggest artist since Michael. Too unseasoned. Only appeals to white consumers. That’s her market. Beyoncé is the biggest as she’s been able to build a foundation within both markets. 7 hours ago, Badgalbriel said: Having black or white fans is irrelevant. The amount of records sold is what determines how big an artist is. Actually how many records sold is irrelevant because MJ had more than just huge record/album sales. Also if we're talking about an artist being on MJ level or bigger than it helps to be universally loved instead of being loved by just one demo. OT No she's not, not even close and thats okay.
Phaunzie Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Raspberries said: Not one of these people are bigger than Taylor in the US Especially not Rihanna. And Drake has had to cancel dates on this tour due to low ticket sales and his last project was a massive bomb The only one even in contention is Madonna in the mid-to-late 1980s You mean Drake the one star that whenever he drops a single goes straight to the top 5 and stays there for months, Rihanna the billionaire, who is still beloved by the GP and is the blueprint of modern day pop stars. Madonna was deemed a legend after Michael Jackson, who despite being blacklisted from America, is still able to successfully chart in every decade. All three of these people are/were universally beloved by the GP in America as well as worldwide. They are bigger than Taylor in terms of popularity, don't let the Eras Tour colour your perception and cloud you from the past were the first two dominated the American Charts, the last one brought crowds of people to everywhere her heavenly body laid, but guess one tour mean she is the biggest star after MJ. I guess we have forgetten, the Sticky & Sweet Tour. Edited July 5, 2023 by Phaunzie
Yuanyu Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 3 hours ago, Marry The Gods said: This Eminem? Why him? Genuinely curious as I don't follow charts and streams but I feel like he hasn't been a big thing for years now. I feel like he hasn't been a big thing for years now - We are in 2023 his last album was in 2020 and he is top 10 most streamed artis on Spotify
Raspberries Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 9 minutes ago, Phaunzie said: You mean Drake the one star that whenever he drops a single goes straight to the top 5 and stays there for months, Rihanna the billionaire, who is still beloved by the GP and is the blueprint of modern day pop stars. Madonna was deemed a legend after Michael Jackson, who despite being blacklisted from America, is still able to successfully chart in every decade. All three of these people are/were universally beloved by the GP in America as well as worldwide. They are bigger than Taylor in terms of popularity, don't let the Eras Tour colour your perception and cloud you from the past were the first two dominated the American Charts, the last one brought crowds of people to everywhere her heavenly body laid, but guess one tour mean she is the biggest star after MJ. I guess we have forgetten, the Sticky & Sweet Tour. Drake has streaming, but has next to no physical sales and cannot tour stadiums. Taylor is right behind him on streaming and demolishes him in the other 2 metrics. Rihanna of all people has 2 #1 albums and even at her touring peak struggled to sell out arenas in the US despite all of her hits You literally have 0 actual evidence, especially for Rihanna lmao, that Drake and Rihanna are bigger than Taylor in the US. Rihanna has hits (songs that were spammed on radio but had relatively weak digital sales compared to her contemporaries in the US) but her best selling album has sold less than 3M pure (GGGB) here while Taylor has multiple that have doubled that. That, added to touring and streaming puts her far above Rihanna. Not to mention how Lift Me Up did despite a massive push on digital retailers, YouTube, streaming and radio The only ones who have dominated every facet of pop consumption are Madonna and Taylor. The others all struggle in one or multiple areas
Marry The Gods Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 1 hour ago, Yuanyu said: I feel like he hasn't been a big thing for years now - We are in 2023 his last album was in 2020 and he is top 10 most streamed artis on Spotify It's not that serious. I enjoy his earlier albums but I genuinely had no idea he was still putting out music these days. I don't use Spotify so I wouldn't know if he's the 10th most streamed artist on an app I don't use
WildHeart Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 3 hours ago, Dr. Alexander said: Taylor hasn’t been able to do this and trust, she’s been trying for years to accomplish this hence her attempts with Ice Spice, Kendrick, Future, and then bringing on guests on tour such as MJB. She simply doesn’t have that universal appeal, and she knows. She is bigger than Justin in every part of the world from Anglosphere to Latin America to Asia. She is on the most global tour of all time right now, be serious 3 hours ago, Phaunzie said: but guess one tour mean she is the biggest star after MJ. Biggest and most global tour of all time*
Avenger Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 I can't imagine people here really saying Taylor is bigger after MJ
dirrtydiana Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 3 hours ago, Phaunzie said: Drake, Rihanna, Madonna are all bigger. According to swifties own logic, yes. More #1s ✅ Rih’s monster streaming power with no album ✅ Madonna’s touring power ✅
Yuanyu Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 1 hour ago, Marry The Gods said: It's not that serious. I enjoy his earlier albums but I genuinely had no idea he was still putting out music these days. I don't use Spotify so I wouldn't know if he's the 10th most streamed artist on an app I don't use Judging an artist's success by what you listen to at home is pretty weird
Raspberries Posted July 5, 2023 Posted July 5, 2023 10 minutes ago, dirrtydiana said: According to swifties own logic, yes. More #1s ✅ Rih’s monster streaming power with no album ✅ Madonna’s touring power ✅ Taylor stomps all of them in streaming sans Drake and Taylor is the biggest touring act alive rn, and this includes Madonna. She's going to do over 3X what Sticky & Sweet did 1
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