news NYT: Growing neo-nazi sentiment in Ukrainian army threatens to erode Western support

[Communion]

Quote

KYIV, Ukraine — Since Russia began its invasion of Ukraine last year, the Ukrainian government and NATO allies have posted, then quietly deleted, three seemingly innocuous photographs from their social media feeds: a soldier standing in a group, another resting in a trench and an emergency worker posing in front of a truck.

 

In each photograph, Ukrainians in uniform wore patches featuring symbols that were made notorious by Nazi Germany and have since become part of the iconography of far-right hate groups.

 

The photographs, and their deletions, highlight the Ukrainian military’s complicated relationship with Nazi imagery.

Quote

“What worries me, in the Ukrainian context, is that people in Ukraine who are in leadership positions, either they don’t or they’re not willing to acknowledge and understand how these symbols are viewed outside of Ukraine,” said Michael Colborne, a researcher at the investigative group Bellingcat who studies the international far right. “I think Ukrainians need to increasingly realize that these images undermine support for the country.”

Quote

In April, Ukraine’s Defense Ministry posted a photograph on its Twitter account of a soldier wearing a patch featuring a skull and crossbones known as the Totenkopf, or Death’s Head. The specific symbol in the picture was made notorious by a Nazi unit that committed war crimes and guarded concentration camps during World War II.

 

The patch in the photograph sets the Totenkopf atop a Ukrainian flag with a small No. 6 below. That patch is the official merchandise of Death in June, a British neo-folk band that the Southern Poverty Law Center has said produces “hate speech” that “exploits themes and images of fascism and Nazism.”

 

The Anti-Defamation League considers the Totenkopf “a common hate symbol.” But Jake Hyman, a spokesman for the group, said it was impossible to “make an inference about the wearer or the Ukrainian Army” based on the patch.

 

“The image, while offensive, is that of a musical band,” Mr. Hyman said.

 

The band now uses the photograph posted by the Ukrainian military to market the Totenkopf patch.

https://archive.ph/Z9SpQ#selection-887.0-895.96

 

The attention this article has gotten online across the entire political spectrum. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Communion

[YellowRibbon]

There are neonazis everywhere, trying to paint the majority of the Ukrainian Army as "neonazi" feels like just another blatant attempt of Russia to instigate fear in the West. Not surprised that the NYT is spreading this though.

[TheCheshireCat]

How did I know which user would thread this.

[byzantium]

I bet you were really excited to come in here and spread the Kremlin's talking points.  

[Taylena]

Are you suggesting that Russia's murder of civilians is justified because some members of Ukraine's military hold far-right fascist political beliefs, similar to many military personnel in other countries, especially the US? 

[Communion]

13 minutes ago, YellowRibbon said:

Not surprised that the NYT is spreading this though.

 

2 minutes ago, byzantium said:

and spread the Kremlin's talking points.  

?

 

The article defends the Ukrainian army and tries to offer context to the symbols. 

You didn't open the link to the article, did either of you? 

 

Literally proving that the article is getting attention from one side viewing it as defending Ukraine too much and the other accusing it of defending Russia too much - somehow both at the same time. 

[FakeInsider]

When the war began I told people that Ukranians are racist as **** and there was neo nazi party growing quickly and they told me I was spreading NEO NAZI PROPAGANDA. Im glad the west is see the light. UKRAINIANS CAN ROT ALONG WITH RUSSIANS

[byzantium]

3 minutes ago, Communion said:

 

?

 

The article defends the Ukrainian army and tries to offer context to the symbols. 

You didn't open the link to the article, did either of you? 

 

Literally proving that the article is getting attention from one side viewing it as defending Ukraine too much and the other accusing it of defending Russia too much - somehow both at the same time. 

I actually did read the article despite what your bad-faith assumptions may lead you to believe.  I was just questioning your intentions here because you have a history of Kremlin-sympathetic posts and threads.  

[Communion]

Just now, byzantium said:

I was just questioning your intentions here

I'm sorry, sis, but this is paranoid behavior.  Let alone hypocritical given that you literally expressed in another thread that myself and others "derailed" a thread for pointing out the explicit Islamophobia being expressed in it made us uncomfortable, only to now try and derail a thread about an article going viral online because you have some suspicion of another user having some anti-Ukrainian prejudice - even though the article linked and being shared is squarely largely pro-Ukrainian.

 

You're usually better than this kind of unserious behavior so I don't know what's gotten in your head recently. 

[byzantium]

9 minutes ago, Communion said:

I'm sorry, sis, but this is paranoid behavior.  Let alone hypocritical given that you literally expressed in another thread that myself and others "derailed" a thread for pointing out the explicit Islamophobia being expressed in it made us uncomfortable, only to now try and derail a thread about an article going viral online because you have some suspicion of another user having some anti-Ukrainian prejudice - even though the article linked and being shared is squarely largely pro-Ukrainian.

 

You're usually better than this kind of unserious behavior so I don't know what's gotten in your head recently. 

Notice how quickly you would like to change the conversation from your Kremlin sympathies and start attacking me. And while I think that you should express your concerns in the relevant thread rather than bringing it up in an entirely different thread, I expressed that you derailed the other thread through how you frequently gaslight people (as you are doing here). 

Edited June 10, 2023 by byzantium

[Communion]

Just now, byzantium said:

 Notice how quickly you would like to change the conversation from you kremlin sympathies and start attacking me. And while I think that you should express your concerns in the relevant thread rather than bringing it up in an entirely different thread, I expressed that you derailed the other thread through how you frequently gaslight people (as you are doing here). 

Sis, this is.. gaslighting. Change what conversation? I asked if you read the article and where you found it unfair when you clarified you read it and then said discussing it was "spreading Kremlin talking points" without explaining why.

 

I've made no assertions of my own - the title is the words of one of the heads of Bellingcat, the UK intelligence agency literally working with the Ukrainian army to help defeat Russians. 

 

*I* personally find the article fairly nuanced in how it lays out the harm in pretending for too long that these symbols aren't be used at all, while recognizing that said sentiments can't ever justify Russia's ongoing genocide. And that the negative reactions from both those sympathetic of Russia and Ukraine shows how reactionary the subject itself has become. Like it's genuinely disassociating to engage in good faith and be gaslighted into thinking I'm like somehow on the spectrum without realizing it or something. 

[byzantium]

3 minutes ago, Communion said:

Like it's genuinely disassociating to engage in good faith and be gaslighted into thinking I'm like somehow on the spectrum without realizing it or something. 

You are exhausting, but I guess you now know how everyone feels when they engage with you.  

[Communion]

Just now, byzantium said:

You are exhausting, but I guess you now know how everyone feels when they engage with you.  

I don't think this is an effective way derail the thread from the topics being discussed, fyi. 

[byzantium]

13 minutes ago, Communion said:

I don't think this is an effective way derail the thread from the topics being discussed, fyi. 

Do you ever genuinely engage in good faith with anyone here? 

[Communion]

17 minutes ago, byzantium said:

Do you ever genuinely engage in good faith with anyone here? 

Is this suggesting that you think I've been posting on ATRL for *7* years about things like Ukraine's history of nazi apologia directly tied to its anti-communist history in the hopes that one day it would be invaded by a just-as far-right capitalist oligarchy to then get to troll (?) you or others?

 

What part of "avowed communist long agrees with the left-wing consensus that Ukraine has for decades deeply promoted nazi apologia" is so unbelievable that one would think this is some 4d form of bad faith trolling?

Edited June 10, 2023 by Communion

[Rep2000]

As if there's no Neo Nazi sentiment in the Russian army as well. The call is from inside the house, ma'am.

[byzantium]

16 minutes ago, Communion said:

Is this suggesting that you think I've been posting on ATRL for *7* years about things like Ukraine's history of nazi apologia directly tied to its anti-communist history in the hopes that one day it would be invaded by a just-as far-right capitalist oligarchy to then get to troll (?) you or others?

 

What part of "avowed communist long agrees with the left-wing consensus that Ukraine has for decades deeply promoted nazi apologia" is so unbelievable that one would think this is some 4d form of bad faith trolling?

Do you not see how your current use of those talking points parallels the talking points of that far right capitalist oligarchy who is massacring people in an unjust war of imperialist aggression?  Your tone strikes as indifferent or even worse, supportive, of that.  

[Communion]

47 minutes ago, byzantium said:

how your current use of those talking points parallels 

Our conflict is there isn't a factual basis to this. I believe that you genuinely feel that is true (and get why you approach who you believe to be bad faith trolls as so*) but I myself genuinely believe it's unserious that recognizing historical fact is somehow sympathizing with Russia, especially when such history is agreed upon from far-left to center-right that I'm on the same page as like.. Radio Free America (and NYT!)

 

I get why people who believe certain conversations (Russia's genocide in Ukraine) are more important at the moment than others (Ukraine's history of nazi apologia) would be frustrated. I understand those sensitivities.

 

But at some level I do think you would also get why such broad assertions on your end would also frustrate people like me from our view and similarly come off as, in this case, acting in bad faith, no? 

 

(* - It's also frustrating that passionately discussing things outside of ATRL's largely European worldview gets leftists derided when it's clear that such fiery passion that can come across as aggressive IS fine when the topic and user is much more in-line with the median ATRL user's views. I question the motives of someone defending calls to deport Muslims? I'm "gaslighting". You question my motives discussing NYT's Ukraine reporting? You're just "taking [me] to task.")

 

And this is our conflict because me going "well, no, that's not factual" may be what then labels me "not acting in good faith" despite that I think it's clear I'm saying what I very earnestly think. So where do we go from here? 

 

This type of reactive course-correction is actually discussed in the article linked in the OP. 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Communion

[byzantium]

38 minutes ago, Communion said:

Our conflict is there isn't a factual basis to this.

What are you talking about?  This was part of Putin's February 24th, 2022 speech for example which you are free to go look up a transcript if you do not believe me.  And this is kind of the key issue here.  I and other people in this thread genuinely think that you do not care about this issue and that you just want to find a backdoor way to support Russia right now.  

Ukraine, like every other sovereign state in this world, is imperfect and there are ways to discuss its imperfection, but your tone and history in other threads strongly signal that you don't care about THAT conversation.  It really seems like you want to find a way to, "purify" a right-wing imperialist invasion and massacre in another sovereign state.  I would be more than happy for you to make us believe that that is not true, but that is where the conversation is.  

[ClashAndBurn]

New York Times is Russian propaganda now? When if anything, they’re practically Biden-aligned state media? Please.  

[Jaguarqueef]

3 hours ago, YellowRibbon said:

There are neonazis everywhere, trying to paint the majority of the Ukrainian Army as "neonazi" feels like just another blatant attempt of Russia to instigate fear in the West. Not surprised that the NYT is spreading this though.

It’s definitely a good percentage of Neo Nazis in Ukraine. As well as in Russia and Poland and a lot of Eastern Europe.

The US should be cautious of supporting a regime/group without significant demands.If the US keeps pouring $$ into Ukraine significant concessions will have to be made, ala Mujahadeen morphing into the Taliban.

 

There’s a reason Israel is extremely lukewarm in it’s support of Ukraine.

 

The Russian excuse of invading Ukraine to eradicate neo nazism is bs though.

[byzantium]

14 minutes ago, Jaguarqueef said:

It’s definitely a good percentage of Neo Nazis in Ukraine. As well as in Russia and Poland and a lot of Eastern Europe.

The US should be cautious of supporting a regime/group without significant demands.If the US keeps pouring $$ into Ukraine significant concessions will have to be made, ala Mujahadeen morphing into the Taliban.

I agree though I would say that concessions from a regime can be worked out and made after the immediate threat to sovereignty is gone.  The US can get concessions in the process to join nato or other Western countries could do similar things for the EU.  

 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by byzantium

[Communion]

39 minutes ago, byzantium said:

What are you talking about?  This was part of Putin's February 24th, 2022 speech

See? This comes off as acting in bad faith. Your claim of parallels is what I said lacks factual basis. Pivoting to something else that doesn't show parallels and going "what? this factually happened!" is silly. 

 

Vladimir Putin is a capitalist and a fascist. He would not link Ukraine's nazi apologia to anti-communist sentiments. Communists are literally disenfranchised in Putin's Russia. Putin's rhetoric against Ukraine hinders on emboldening Russian nationalism, Russian national identity, and claims of anti-Russian sentiments.

 

Leftists' understanding of Ukraine's history: "Ukraine has a long history of reactionary nazi apologia to perpetuate the belief that communism and central planning were the sole, singular source of suffering in their history."

Putin's propaganda to the Russian people: "Ukraine is a country of nazis, a historical enemy of the Russian people, and now works with the Western world with the sole intent of embarrassing and degrading the Russian people."

 

Communists and the Kremlin are directly at odds because Putin's ideas of national identity don't exist within the paradigm of leftist ideology. (Those who wish to flatten the differences between these two conclusions also often seem to have vested interest in conflating the USSR and Russian Federation as one for their own anti-communist views).

 

We can't suggest people be barred from factual observations within history just because the Kremlin tries to then exploit said history for its own gain, let alone when the conclusions derived are at polar opposites of one another. Jewish Leftists have spent decades writing about Holocaust denialism within the Baltics & Ukraine. Those conversations don't lose merit, for example, just because Putin found a different path to birth ultranationalism.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Communion

[byzantium]

19 minutes ago, Communion said:

See? This comes off as acting in bad faith. Your claim of parallels is what I said lacks factual basis. Pivoting to something else that doesn't show parallels and going "what? this factually happened!" is silly.

Come on.  You cannot seriously be arguing that this is in bad faith.  The Kremlin's viewpoint has been widely distributed.  If you are going to come from a different perspective and reach a similar conclusion that is fine, but you still need to understand the baseline connotations of language and what it is doing.  

 

 

26 minutes ago, Communion said:

We can't suggest people be barred from factual observations within history just because the Kremlin tries to then exploit said history for its own gain, let alone when the conclusions derived are at polar opposites of one another. Jewish Leftists have spent decades writing about Holocaust denialism within the Baltics & Ukraine. Those conversations don't lose merit, for example, just because Putin found a different path to birth ultranationalism.

I agree with this.  We should not suggest this. However, we can suggest that individuals who want to engage in this conversation appreciate that a massive right-wing propaganda campaign has been established using similar language and that they should take precautions to distance themselves and center the conversation in a way that does not appear to support and cannot be easily commandeered by the right-wing propaganda campaign. 

The sum total is that we have a responsibility to appreciate how our language will be reasonably received and try to make an effort to minimize harm. 

[midnightdawn]

Where does it state there is growing neo-nazi sentiment like the title suggests?