news Maryland: Muslim-led coalition protest against LGBTQ-inclusive curriculum in schools

[Communion]

2 hours ago, LikeATattoo said:

They excuse and enable Islamic homophobia at every given opportunity.

Literally users like you: "Nearly every Muslim you will ever interact will want you dead"

Any sensible person: "I... don't think that's true."

Literally users like you: "Wow, way to both excuse and encourage homophobia."

 

You've made 42 posts in the month of May. 29 - 70% - of said posts have been dedicated to about why you feel Muslims as a demographic of people must be ostracized, discriminated against, and eliminated. 

 

You have such a reactionary driven-hatred of Muslims that you fabricated the claim that there were 0 LGBT Muslims living within America:

 

And then you claimed - for some reason - that Sadiq Khan secretly hated LGBT people and that any Muslim person within the West who accepts LGBT people and supports pro-LGBT policies is "lying for personal gain" (??):

 

"You're enabling homophobia if you don't agree with my reactionary worldview that being Muslim Inherently makes someone homophobic by default." 

 

So for all talk of "listening to people's experiences", let's actually be honest what's being discussed here.

"I don't want Muslims to become accepting of LGBT people. I want Muslims to no longer exist" is a revenge fantasy, not a politically meaningful form of praxis that leads to LGBT liberation. 

 

I recommend you re-read the below because you appear out of your depth:

13 hours ago, Phantom said:

Some of you REALLY need a reality check if you can use any and all avenues of religious conservatism (like this) to launch into thinly veiled anti-left tirades and/or innuendos about how akshually!!! religious extremists and "far" leftists are in cahoots.

 

If you can't understand how veering a discussion about gross religious conservatism to a broader point about religion as a whole - especially when it pertains to socially racialized religion - is LEAGUES different to """defending""" Muslims, then that is largely on you.

 

[LikeATattoo]

2 hours ago, Communion said:

Literally users like you: "Nearly every Muslim you will ever interact will want you dead"

Any sensible person: "I... don't think that's true."

Literally users like you: "Wow, way to both excuse and encourage homophobia."

You’re such a slanderous person LOL. The vast majority of Muslims in the world are anti-queer, as are the vast majority of Christians (albeit I’d rather be queer in most Christian spaces than in most Muslim spaces — there are of course exceptions to this).

 

2 hours ago, Communion said:

You've made 42 posts in the month of May. 29 - 70% - of said posts have been dedicated to about why you feel Muslims as a demographic of people must be ostracized, discriminated against, and eliminated. 

1. Your framing of this is profoundly intellectually dishonest. All of the posts that you mentioned, excepting my latest two, were made in one thread because you kept quoting me with obfuscation attempts.

 

2. Me saying that queer people have every right to be weary of Islam (and broader Abrahamic religion in general) does not equate to a belief that Muslims deserve to be persecuted in the streets. It’s vile to characterise my stance as that, but then, I’m used to your personality by now lol.

 

3. The fact that you dedicated time to analysing my account statistics is creepy.

 

2 hours ago, Communion said:

You have such a reactionary driven-hatred of Muslims that you fabricated the claim that there were 0 LGBT Muslims living within America:

Even with me having been negligent and misread a study, I never said that there were zero queer Muslims living in the US. Why lie and then quote the interaction like people can’t verify that you’re lying??? Lmao

 

2 hours ago, Communion said:

And then you claimed - for some reason - that Sadiq Khan secretly hated LGBT people and that any Muslim person within the West who accepts LGBT people and supports pro-LGBT policies is "lying for personal gain" (??):

What I actually said was:

 

1. Muslim politicians in the UK who happen to hold homophobic views would be stupid to publicise those views because of negative stereotypes in the West surrounding Islam’s relationship with queerness.

 

2. Muslim people in the West who are homophobic are more likely to control/hide their homophobia than Muslim people in Muslim countries, again because negative stereotypes demand that they do so for sociological survival.

 

And—as with everything that I’ve said—I’m exceedingly right in both those counts.

 

2 hours ago, Communion said:

"I don't want Muslims to become accepting of LGBT people. I want Muslims to no longer exist" is a revenge fantasy, not a politically meaningful form of praxis that leads to LGBT liberation. 

And the bolder was never so much as inferred never mind outright stated, so who are you ultimately talking to?

 

2 hours ago, Communion said:

I recommend you re-read the below because you appear out of your depth:

The queer Atheist who defends Islam like their life depends on it is accusing me of being out of my depth?

 

 

______
 

Before we tussle again, I have to ask:

 

Are you white?

Edited June 8, 2023 by LikeATattoo

[katara]

Why does that user @Communion gaslight every topic to death in every thread he steps foot in? 

 

All threads he posts in become un-readable due to his non-sense tirades.

 

Literally re-defining mental gymnastics. 

[Communion]

58 minutes ago, katara said:

Why does that user @Communion gaslight every topic to death in every thread he steps foot in? 

Someone not agreeing with right-wing conclusions about entire demographics of people that you happen find yourself agreeing with is not gaslighting you. 

 

Gaslighting is telling people that they're "supporting people who want you dead" if they simply recognize basic facts - like how it's weird and problematic to highlight a minority of conservative Muslims when the majority of American Muslims are largely progressice on LGBT issues. 

[Rosenda]

1 hour ago, katara said:

Why does that user @Communion gaslight every topic to death in every thread he steps foot in? 

 

All threads he posts in become un-readable due to his non-sense tirades.

 

Literally re-defining mental gymnastics. 

He is insufferable istg. Imagine if this was a bunch of white Christians, he'd be writing essays about white supremacy, America being anti queer, trans genocide and whatnot

 

America is lucky there's an ocean that separates them from Muslim nations, because living in Europe and having contact with muslims will tell you that being pro LGBT and Muslim is INCOMPATIBLE. Even the smallest village in Ireland will have more Muslims than 80% of American states so stfu

[Communion]

2 hours ago, LikeATattoo said:

does not equate to a belief that Muslims deserve to be persecuted in the streets

 

Quote

people in Western countries being weary of Muslim immigration to the West

"It's not ostracizing or discriminating against someone to legislate bans or limitations on if people like them can legally exist in a country"

 

kjnkjnkjn  this is so ******* unserious.   The emotional ANGUISH to wax poetic and wrap up in fluff that you feel entitled to argue it's fine to limit the migration to Muslims. That you feel so enraged that someone rightfully calls out such a belief as inherently right-wing and prejudicial. 

 

This is what these conversations always come down to. No one is saying you have to agree with the views of conservative Muslims. No one's even denying that there are indeed conservative Muslims. People hesitate and call out harsh generalizations in these threads because the intent somehow always squares back to reactionaries defending absurd, right-wing concepts like banning Muslims from migrating to the West.  

 

Your comrades are not even helping you by pretending to phrase it so nicely and are flat out saying "keep them mongrels out":

16 minutes ago, Rosenda said:

America is lucky there's an ocean that separates them from Muslim nations

PS-  New Jersey has a higher % of Muslim residents than 2/3rd's of European nations. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Communion

[LikeATattoo]

52 minutes ago, katara said:

Why does that user @Communion gaslight every topic to death in every thread he steps foot in? 

 

All threads he posts in become un-readable due to his non-sense tirades.

 

Literally re-defining mental gymnastics. 

My problem is the comfort that he has in putting words into people’s mouths. Like, straight up lying about people for the sake of his argument(s) having increased dramatic effect. It’s just very dirty and lowdown to me. And the most egregious thing is, you’ll see him chastising critics of religious extremists a thousand times before you’ll see him criticising the actual religious extremists.

[LikeATattoo]

2 minutes ago, Communion said:

Someone not agreeing with right-wing conclusions about entire demographics of people that you happen find yourself agreeing with is not gaslighting you. 

 

Gaslighting is telling people that they're "supporting people who want you dead" if they simply recognize basic facts - like how it's weird and problematic to highlight a minority of conservative Muslims when the majority of American Muslims are largely progressice on LGBT issues. 

But why, with you at least, does it always come back to American Muslims (even in threads where the topic concerns an event that took place outside of the US)? There are just as many non-Americans frequenting this site as there are non-Americans (probably even more, come to think of it), so why should your country take centre stage in every single one of these discussions? Like in this case, yes, the situation being discussed happened in the US, but this could’ve happened in ******* Estonia and you still would’ve made it about America.
 

I get that Americans have perpetual main character syndrome and struggle with the practice of stepping outside of themselves even temporarily, but for as left-leaning as you characterise yourself to be I would’ve expected you to at least try to be an exception to that rule.

[brazil]

The argument by obvious islamaphobes that gays should automatically shun and oppose Muslim because many oppose LGBT+ rights is wild.

 

Support for same-sex marriage is also lower among black people than white, does that mean that the LGBT+ community should excuse racism? 

 

One can oppose anti-LGBT+ positions from Muslim without falling into a different type of bigotry and discrimination, Islamophobia.

[Communion]

14 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

But why, with you at least, does it always come back to American Muslims (even in threads where the topic concerns an event that took place outside of the US)? There are just as many non-Americans frequenting this site as there are non-Americans (probably even more, come to think of it), so why should your country take centre stage in every single one of these discussions? Like in this case, yes, the situation being discussed happened in the US, but this could’ve happened in ******* Estonia and you still would’ve made it about America.
 

I get that Americans have perpetual main character syndrome and struggle with the practice of stepping outside of themselves even temporarily, but for as left-leaning as you characterise yourself to be I would’ve expected you to at least try to be an exception to that rule.

What do you think these conversations would look like if participation required the acknowledgement that barring migration of people on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion are inherently ultranationalist ideas that anyone who considers themselves liberal should reject?

 

Why would migration need to be a topic of discussion if the intent is to give queer people living in Muslim-majority nations the space to aid their greivances with ultra-conservatives?

[LikeATattoo]

18 minutes ago, Communion said:

 

"It's not ostracizing or discriminating against someone to legislate bans or limitations on if people like them can legally exist in a country"

 

kjnkjnkjn  this is so ******* unserious.   The emotional ANGUISH to wax poetic and wrap up in fluff that you feel entitled to argue it's fine to limit the migration to Muslims. That you feel so enraged that someone rightfully calls out such a belief as inherently right-wing and prejudicial. 

 

Your comrades are not even helping you by pretending to phrase it so nicely and are flat out saying "keep them mongrels out":

PS-  New Jersey has a higher % of Muslim residents than 2/3rd's of European nations. 

1. Once again, you’re characterising my sentiment that queer people have every right to be weary of Islam and increased Muslim immigration to the West as a belief in the justified persecution of Muslims, which wasn’t and isn’t the case. Beyond that, you’re once again linking posts that directly disprove that I ever said those things lol.

 

2. New Jersey has a larger population than the majority of Europe? That’s neat. You know what total percentage of the global Muslim population that American Muslims are??? Only 0.1% 

 

3. Answer the question; are you white?

[Rosenda]

1 hour ago, Communion said:

PS-  New Jersey has a higher % of Muslim residents than 2/3rd's of European nations. 

there's not a single Western European country with a lower % of Muslims than NJ (a tiny state with 9M people and 3% of Muslims lmao). France alone has 70M people and the % of Muslims is 11%

 

 

[Communion]

2 hours ago, Rosenda said:

a single Western European country

Ah, so suddenly it went from "Europe" to "Western Europe". Interesting.  (Recent figures for Spain, Portugal and ironically Ireland also place the Muslim population as less than 3% of the population so I guess those don't get to be Western European either!)

 

I guess you agree then that those Central and Eastern Europeans who have no Muslims in their countries don't get to say whether Muslims are a good or bad demographic then, right?  

[Rosenda]

3 minutes ago, Communion said:

Ah, so suddenly it went from "Europe" to "Western Europe". Interesting.  (Recent figures for Spain, Portugal and ironically Ireland also place the Muslim population as less than 3% of the population so I guess those don't get to be Western European either!)

 

I guess you agree then that those Central and Eastern Europeans who have no Muslims in their countries don't get to say whether Muslims are a good or bad demographic then, right?  

The population of Muslims in Spain is exactly 4.45% tho. Portugal, Ireland and I believe Iceland are the only western countries with less than 3%.

 

Eastern Europeans are not very gay friendly to begin with, which is the topic at hand, so its not like Muslims marching against LGBT education and gender ideology (which you so wholeheartedly support i think) being taught in public schools is gonna make a difference in those countries. And no, i dont think you can form a general opinion about a whole demographic without having a real life experience with them and since Muslims do not migrate to Eastern Europe, their opinion is as valid as someone from Wyoming telling Western Europeans "You ARe IsLamoPhoBic"

[G.U.Y. Gaga]

This is one thing the republicans were right about lol 

[uusagii]

Lock this lol

[Delirious]

3 hours ago, LikeATattoo said:

1. Once again, you’re characterising my sentiment that queer people have every right to be weary of Islam and increased Muslim immigration to the West as a belief in the justified persecution of Muslims, which wasn’t and isn’t the case. Beyond that, you’re once again linking posts that directly disprove that I ever said those things lol. 

 

2. New Jersey has a larger population than the majority of Europe? That’s neat. You know what total percentage of the global Muslim population that American Muslims are??? Only 0.1% 

 

3. Answer the question; are you white?

I don't think they're white but I'm not 100% sure ....

Edited June 8, 2023 by Delirious

[byzantium]

I feel like a certain user has derailed this thread but I just want to say that people should not use the LGBT+ community to justify anti-immigration sentiment.  It is true that some immigrants will have some anti-LGBT sentiments, but people in the country ALREADY have those sentiments as well.  We shouldn’t hold immigrants to the standard of perfection in order to justify their immigrant status. 

[Communion]

4 hours ago, LikeATattoo said:

global Muslim population

So you agree that there is actually no mass Invasion of the Western world by Muslims and that any attempt to fearmonger about such is an inherently ultra-nationalist and nativst form of white supremacy? 

 

Sis, for someone who rebukes the idea that the vast majority of anti-Islam sentiment in Europe is rooted in racialization - and that a hatred of Muslims is "rational" - you having to pivot to identity politics to try and save your argument is interesting. 

 

It's "race has nothing to do with this" when white Westerners say they're disgusted by Muslims but now you are concerned about whiteness when white Westerners say they have no personal fear of Muslims? 

 

What aspect of an ex-Muslim's identity would give them authority over whether or not European nations should mass ban Muslim migration? Do you think Candace Owens then has an inherent authority as a conservative black woman to defend anti-black criminal justice policies? Does Blaire White have an inherent authority as a conservative trans women to promote banning trans women from women's bathrooms?

 

You understand this logic because you're literally arguing that white Western progressives are being duped by a secretly conservative minority utilizing their identity to protect their homophobia while literally defending conservative ex-Muslims or conservative LGBT people utilizing their identity to protect their xenophobia and nativiism. The issue is you're so emboldened by a reactionary hatred of Islam that you can't grasp that hating Islam can make someone just as conservative as many practitioners of Islam itself. 

 

Why would *spins wheel* a gay Iranian millennial who may (rightfully!) hate their homophobic parents suddenly be an expert testimonial that it's justified for *spins wheel* the neo-nazi party of Sweden to call for the mass expulsion of Muslims?

 

IDPOL is a two way street, sis. 

 

[Scars]

Contrary to what is being said by some in this thread, my experience is that ATRL collectively has a tendency to center European Muslims in literally any discourse in the Civics section. Never forget when some people thought it was appropriate to randomly obsess over muslim immigrants in Europe on a thread about LGBT rights in Uganda, a christian-majority african country. In fact, people are already bringing them up here. 

 

It's so frustrating that this board can't have mature discussions about homophobic sentiments among marginalized communities without resorting to inflammatory language and dog whistles. The way some of you scream "they should go back to where they came from if they don't like it here!" or "they should go to a country that allign with their ideals" as soon as y'all see a woman wearing a hijab, even without knowing their nationality or citizenship status, is truly a disgrace. 

 

Not only it's obviously rooted in xenophobia and the othering of ethnic minorities, but it ignores the fact that homophobia is also largely present in any other conservative demographic group in the West. It's hard to believe those talking points are "just about religion, not race", as some of you always claim, when those same talking points are nowhere to be seen in any thread related to white british TERFs, evengelical white americans, far-right europeans or any other white western-majority conservative group.

 

Back to the topic, it's truly sad to see the amount of targeted hate and pushbacks happening on pride month this year. Sending love to queer muslim americans.

Edited June 8, 2023 by Scars

[LikeATattoo]

59 minutes ago, Communion said:

So you agree that there is actually no mass Invasion of the Western world by Muslims and that any attempt to fearmonger about such is an inherently ultra-nationalist and nativst form of white supremacy? 

I just…don’t have the patience for your duplicity anymore.

 

I say that queer people owe Islam no grace, and that queer trepidation towards the idea of proximity with people who hate your existence for religious reasons is logical…

 

…You infer that I hate Muslims, want them attacked in the streets, and believe that they’re “invading the West”.

 

I say that American Muslims being increasingly accepting of queerness is lovely, but that America is not the world (or even the West), and that American Muslims make up less than 1% of the total Muslim population so they’re statistically insignificant in the grand scheme of things…

 

…You say that I want mass Muslim American deportation.

 

I say that Muslim politicians in the UK—if harbouring homophobic views—would be stupid to publicise said views if they did have them…

 

…You conclude that I don’t believe that Muslims can be genuinely queer-accepting (never mind the Muslim people in my life who are a direct contradiction of this viewpoint).

 

59 minutes ago, Communion said:

Sis, for someone who rebukes the idea that the vast majority of anti-Islam sentiment in Europe is rooted in racialization - and that a hatred of Muslims is "rational" - you having to pivot to identity politics to try and save your argument is interesting. 

There you go with the flagrant lying again.

 

Anxiety =/= hatred. No queer person should have to justify their mistrust of either Islam or Christianity.

 

Anyways…are you white?

Edited June 8, 2023 by LikeATattoo

[Communion]

4 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

 say that queer people owe Islam no grace

 

You say this while explicitly referencing migration and then play innocent that the material reality of the words you endorse are far-right views. Nearly every post accompanied in this thread that agrees with you is a declaration of support for far right immigration policy. Why?

 

Everything you're saying is hollow sloganing that is so hollow it makes me think it has to be on purpose for sinister and insidious means. Your deferrence to play coy and not recognize that your talking points are at the very least co-opted by the far right makes me believe you then are the far right. 

 

You don't owe conservative women grace, but misogyny to conservative women is still misogyny. 

 

You don't owe conservatives of color grace, but racism to conservatives of color is still racism. 

 

You don't owe conservative queer people grace, but homophobia and transphobia are still such regardless of the targets. 

 

You don't owe conservative Muslims anything. The existance of conservative Muslims ("99% of all in the world!!! I am very smart!!!!!!!111") however doesn't then mean the absence of grace entitles you to dehumanization. Which is objectively what you do when you twiddle your thumbs and pretend to not understand the inherent link between your defense of xenophobic rhetoric as "just concerned fellow hesitant queers" and actual law that then impacts the people you're denying wanting to see persecuted. 

 

Your entire argument is that progressives are regressive and defend conservative views for the sake of identity but that's literally where you have found yourself. There is no objective, material reality where queer people in the West vocalizing their distrust or fear of Islam serves any purpose then to embolden and justify far-right policy. 

 

If you want to uplift queer voices in Muslim nations, go ahead, but what does *spins wheel* Finnish policy on head scarves have to do with *spins wheel* growing up pansexual in Lebanon?

 

I'm still waiting for you to answer the below:

What do you think these conversations would look like if participation required the acknowledgement that barring migration of people on the basis of race, ethnicity or religion are inherently ultranationalist ideas that anyone who considers themselves liberal should reject?

 

Why would migration need to be a topic of discussion if the intent is to give queer people living in Muslim-majority nations the space to aid their greivances with ultra-conservatives?

[LikeATattoo]

2 hours ago, Communion said:

You say this while explicitly referencing migration and then play innocent that the material reality of the words you endorse are far-right views.

Point to where I referenced Muslim migration, quickly.

 

Like at this point I get that you’re just an evil-spirited person who lacks the capability (or moral fibre, whichever show fits best) to participate in debates without maliciously lying about the opposing side, but I’m also tired of you thinking that I won’t call you out for your slander attempts. I will, every time.

 

How dare you mischaracterise my arguments for the sake of strengthening your own arguments?

 

2 hours ago, Communion said:

Your deferrence to play coy and not recognize that your talking points are at the very least co-opted by the far right makes me believe you then are the far right. 

My talking points:

 

- Queer people owe Islam no grace (that’s the religion, not all 1.8 billion of the individuals who follow it. Since I know that you need the clarity).

 

- Queer trepidation at the thought of increased proximity to people who overwhelmingly hate them is exceedingly logical.

 

- Queer people, particularly within queer spaces, should be able to express their gripes with the persecution that various religious groups subject them to without being chastised by self-aggrandising pests who lack the ability to turn off their respective virtue-signalling switches for even short bursts of time.

 

If you think that these talking points make me—a queer brown person who is almost certainly more hated by the right than your white ass is—right-wing, then that’s actually a you problem. And we’ve already established that you’re a person with many problems, so…welp.

 

2 hours ago, Communion said:

You don't owe conservative women grace, but misogyny to conservative women is still misogyny. 

 

You don't owe conservatives of color grace, but racism to conservatives of color is still racism. 

 

You don't owe conservative queer people grace, but homophobia and transphobia are still such regardless of the targets.

But being anxious about religious homophobia is not equivalent to bigotry, let alone in the vein of misogyny, racism, and queerphobia…so what are you really saying with this?

 

2 hours ago, Communion said:

The existance of conservative Muslims ("99% of all in the world!!! I am very smart!!!!!!!111") however doesn't then mean the absence of grace entitles you to dehumanization.

1. I mean it’s actually more than 99%, but I’m glad that you’ve at least accomplished the milestone of removing your head from your *** for long enough to acknowledge that these queer-accepting Muslims are an extreme minority. Baby steps, I guess.

 

2. Muslims are not the ones being dehumanised here. Queer people are, though. Just in case you wondered.

 

2 hours ago, Communion said:

There is no objective, material reality where queer people in the West vocalizing their distrust or fear of Islam serves any purpose then to embolden and justify far-right policy.

This take is, predictably, devoid of nuance. It would be one thing if people here were taking turns guesting on Fox News and expressing concern over Muslim existence in the US, but no one is doing that or, more importantly, wants to do that. We’re a small group of queers in a small corner of the Internet, simply having dialogue over anti-queer happenings that make it to the news.
 

You chastised me earlier for being in that other thread about Muslim students in Belgium attacking their queer fellow students, but the reality is that I just comment in threads that I see about religious persecution of queer people. It’s not my fault than in each of those threads, the aggressors were Muslim. Had they been Christian, my energy would’ve been the same. So knock this white saviour complex BS off.

 

FYI, in both of the conversations that I’ve had with you, you’ve adamantly avoided addressing 75% of what I had to say. Sp you don’t get to “wait” on my response to anything.

 

I won’t even bother asking you if you’re white again since I pretty much know that you are. If I’d only known this earlier I would’ve navigated your BS more wisely.

[xDiamondx]

5 hours ago, byzantium said:

I feel like a certain user has derailed this thread but I just want to say that people should not use the LGBT+ community to justify anti-immigration sentiment.  It is true that some immigrants will have some anti-LGBT sentiments, but people in the country ALREADY have those sentiments as well.  We shouldn’t hold immigrants to the standard of perfection in order to justify their immigrant status. 

 

I'll just add to this post by saying... Muslims are being weirdly targeted in a way that strikes me as xenophobic. Compared to the actual home grown "terrorists" called Christians (slash Republicans), I've noticed that there's far too much leniency based on skin tone in regards to certain view points.\

 

My last point is that at this moment in time, the US being a hyperpower WILL set the tone for the next decade and beyond by how we address certain discriminating issue. And it all started by how we allowed CHRISTIANS to dictate who gets to be treated equally (just look at how Budlight and Target has capitulated to certain audiences) . Muslims for whatever their faults have not the same impact on US politics in the last few years and it is going to be much worse given our Supreme Court justices.

[Communion]

27 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

Point to where I referenced Muslim migration, quickly.

 

???

 

It's even worse than I thought. You didn't just do as I described - suggest that any person espousing Islamophobia and nativist rhetoric is shielded by their sexuality. Imagine typing "no Muslim person should be able to movie to a non-Muslim country" with your own finger tips and think you're acting in some moral position.

 

This is you:

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Communion