discussion Is the US worse than Israel? Why people doesn't care about the US war crimes?

[Space Cowboy]

We often discuss Israel's controversial policies towards Palestine, and there's no doubt that the actions and repercussions of these policies should be criticized when necessary. However, I wonder if we are also giving due attention to the actions of the US.

 

The US, throughout its history, has been involved in numerous controversial foreign interventions, some of which have led to significant humanitarian crises and protracted conflicts. For instance, the Vietnam War, the Iraq War, Afghanistan war, and interventions in Central and South America have had devastating consequences like the destabilization of governments and the killing of millions of innocents, the US has taken way more lives than Israel ever did.

 

Just look at the numbers. Since 2001, the US interventions in the middle east have killed over 335,000 innocent civilians (report by Brown University's Costs of War). While Israel between 2008 and 2021 has killed over 4,000 Palestinian civilians.

 

There are numerous instances where the US has been accused of war crimes or violating international law, from drone strikes that have killed and still kills nowadays civilians in the Middle East (https://atrl.net/forums/topic/440240-biden-admin-drone-strike-kills-innocent-syrian-shepherd-orphaning-10-children/) to the treatment of prisoners in Guantanamo Bay. 

 

Both of them are abusive countries that use their power to commit war crimes against poorer and weaker countries, but the US does it at a bigger scale. So why does the US often evade the same level of scrutiny and criticism? Why no one is calling to boycott the US like some do with Israel. It's ikely tied to its global political power, influence over international media narratives, and historical alliances.

 

Do you consider the US to be as bad or worse than Israel? Is Israel over-hated or is the US is getting a free pass? Do you think that critizising artists for perfoming in Israel is hypocritical considering the US' actions are just as bad?

 

[loveisdead9582]

As bad? No. Bad? Yes. 

[Cain]

3 minutes ago, loveisdead9582 said:

As bad? No. Bad? Yes. 

Like, in history? Yes the US is way worse

 

Millions of people have died under slavery and genocide within the US borders alone, not to even speak of the deaths at the hands of the US outside of its borders

[Badger]

I think the people most vocal about Israel’s war crimes are also denouncing the US’s history as well. 

[SmittenCake]

4 minutes ago, Badger said:

I think the people most vocal about Israel’s war crimes are also denouncing the US’s history as well. 

exactly 

 

who's stating otherwise?  

[HausOfPunk]

Sounds like whataboutism to me.

[BGKC]

I think the US functions as Israel’s body guard. If the US were to cut them off they’d be free from a lot of the conflict in the Middle East. The US and much of the west in general use Israel as a strategic decoy and opportunity to exploit and gain control of the Middle East. Otherwise Germany would have given up a sizable portion of its own land to the Jews to create a new Israel as reparation as opposed to the UK giving up a British owned Palestine so that the the Jews can have their old “homeland” back in the Muslim world. Europe simply didn’t want Jews and figured they could dump them in the Middle East and pretend it’s an act of forgiveness that grants them their original homeland back. A homeland the vast majority of Jews either fled or were exiled from CENTURIES ago since Rashidun reigned between 632 to 661 CE onwards. Now we just have a bunch of rich white Jews coming in demolishing Palestinian homes because it’s “their right” and anyone who says otherwise is anti-Semitic. So it still has a lot to do with Europeans than it does Israel itself (which is a European creation in itself)
 

The US is more concerned about their dollar being the leading currency between weapon, oil and drug sales. All of which Israel fully backs and upholds. The US and their war crimes beyond the Middle East was mostly to save face and prevent the spread of communism and/or socialism (to loot and steal). They’re able to get away with murder because its citizens have been taught to think it’s all necessary in the name of freedom and democracy. It’s a different kind of evil, but definitely not any better or worse than Israel. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by BGKC

[vale9001]

All the countries are founded and have been financied by war and crimes. From the west to the east. 

 

What saves the western coutries in the perception are the democracies inside their national systems, the attention most of the population have (or think to have) about human rights. So their narrative is always "even we're doing something bad" it's because the final result will be an ideal world where human rights will prevail. As every ideology is something like a religion, and as every religion's dogma something you wait and wait and never come. 

 

Some other countries are founded on war and crimes too but also their national intern system is definitely more corrupted than in the Us  or most european countries(see Russia and China)  so they seems worst than us at our eyes. Also for different history, culture, religions and philosophy they don't think they have to "export human rights" in the world, at least not their personal vision, but they only believe a collaboration between States is needed to make an economic balance between countries.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by vale9001

[Space Cowboy]

7 minutes ago, Badger said:

I think the people most vocal about Israel’s war crimes are also denouncing the US’s history as well. 

 

2 minutes ago, SmittenCake said:

exactly 

 

who's stating otherwise?  

Cmon just look at the Israel-related threads on this forum and twitter  

 

Remember the dramatics when Sam Smith was announced to perform in Israel

https://atrl.net/forums/topic/433443-sam-smith-to-perform-in-isreal/#comments

Most people were calling out Sam for not boycotting Israel. Why people think that Israel should be boycotted and not the US.

 

And recently, I’ve seen many people asking for the boycott of Israel in eurovision. I’ve even seen this year’s israeli singer being called a murderer and in twitter and the tweet getting thousands of likes 

 

American artists’ don’t get this kind of hate just for being american. 

[Jjang]

24 minutes ago, Cain said:

Like, in history? Yes the US is way worse

 

Millions of people have died under slavery and genocide within the US borders alone, not to even speak of the deaths at the hands of the US outside of its borders

 

17 minutes ago, Badger said:

I think the people most vocal about Israel’s war crimes are also denouncing the US’s history as well. 

Indeed. 

 

Both Israel and the US have a long and rich history of committing and supporting war crimes. They’re basically a shared economy of military weapon trade. There’s a reason why Israel & US ties run deep and unshakable and why US has spent an unimaginable amount of money on Israeli military aid (and still does indefinitely). 

 

Nothing in present day US is as straightforward apartheid and inhumane as how Israel treats Palestinians living in the West Bank (comparable to the Jim Crow era that ended in the 60’s) or Gaza which is quite literally an open air prison where nearly a million children live. So there’s that. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Jjang

[Jjang]

12 minutes ago, HausOfPunk said:

Sounds like whataboutism to me.

Right. It’s not the oppression olympics. 

[Reflektor]

Both are trash! As an American citizen, I definitely am not at all ignorant to the horrors my own country has perpetuated and continues to perpetuate. 
 

There is an idea however, that being critical of the Israel occupation of Palestine is often done in some sort of myopic way that ignores the abuses of other countries inclusive of America and I have simply not found that to be the case among anyone I know or who’s work I have engaged with. 
 

In particular, this criticism comes up a lot in relation to Boycott, Divest, Sanction*: a movement started by Palestinian activists. As an American who recognizes that the Occupation is in large part funded by our tax dollars, I think it is a great way not only to support these activists but also to spread awareness for the cause. Apartheid requires legislation: for example, Jim Crow was an apartheid and was much easier to target through boycotts and divestment. Eventually, this lead to the Equal Rights Act of 1964. That isn’t to say America is racially equal now, but it’s much more difficult for a movement to target a specific goal that isn’t an all encompassing legislation or political/corporate policy. 

That being said, I certainly don’t think we need to take our foot off the neck of ANY government that is abusive to its citizens, other nations, or both. That includes America. In fact there are  activists and social justice organizations all over America doing great work which can always use help. I think however, looking at what can only be described as a genocide happening in Palestine at the moment, the least a pop star can do is not perform there — it’s easy enough to do with Russia during the Ukrainian crisis  so why the cognitive dissonance?

 

*I will say I generally don’t support sanctions as basically starving a population to revolt is inhumane rarely works.
 

 

[Jjang]

28 minutes ago, Space Cowboy said:

 

Cmon just look at the Israel-related threads on this forum and twitter  

 

Remember the dramatics when Sam Smith was announced to perform in Israel

https://atrl.net/forums/topic/433443-sam-smith-to-perform-in-isreal/#comments

Most people were calling out Sam for not boycotting Israel. Why people think that Israel should be boycotted and not the US.

 

And recently, I’ve seen many people asking for the boycott of Israel in eurovision. I’ve even seen this year’s israeli singer being called a murderer and in twitter and the tweet getting thousands of likes 

 

American artists’ don’t get this kind of hate just for being american. 

I mean, I don’t even disagree in theory I think if we held governments responsible indiscriminately we’d get moving  trust me, the last thing I’m gonna argue against is the US being held accountable.

 

But it seems like you’re coming in bad faith, vaguely and with no context playing this whataboutism card to excuse Israel. “that country is bad too, so why not them?”.

 

if its any help:  Israel is a stolen land that is still actively occupied and sustains that occupation through a military regime and imposing apartheid (link) rules and discriminatory laws against the indigenous Palestinian population (which mind you, is literally higher than the Jewish Population) 

 

So boycotting Israel is not just as vague as being anti war crimes (obviously we should all be) but it’s literally a statement that you do not support blatant apartheid. There are 4 million Palestinians in East Jerusalem and the West Bank that are effectively ruled by Israel and yet have no say when it comes to voting for the government that puts them through collective punishments, imposes illegal Jewish settlements on their lands, raid their homes and detain them with no legal basis and there’s quite literally 800k Palestinian children sieged in an open air prison in Gaza as we speak. 

 

the US has a long way of healing let alone reparations and all… but at least they’re not doing THAT 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Jjang

[vale9001]

3 minutes ago, Jjang said:

I mean, I don’t even disagree in theory I think if we held governments responsible indiscriminately we’d get moving  trust me, the last thing I’m gonna argue against is the US being held accountable.

 

But it seems like you’re coming in bad faith, vaguely and with no context playing this whataboutism card to excuse Israel. “that country is bad too, so why not them?”.

 

if its any help:  Israel is a stolen land that is still actively occupied and sustains that occupation through a military regime and imposing apartheid (link) rules and discriminatory laws against the indigenous Palestinian population (which mind you, is literally higher than the Jewish Population) 

 

So boycotting Israel is not just as vague as being anti war crimes (obviously we should all be) but it’s literally a statement that you do not support blatant apartheid. There are 4 million Palestinians in East Jerusalem and the West Bank that are effectively ruled by Israel and yet have no say when it comes to voting for the government that puts them through collective punishments, imposes illegal Jewish settlements on their lands, raid their homes and detain them with no legal basis and there’s quite literally 800k Palestinian children sieged in an open air prison in Gaza as we speak. 

 

the US has a long way of healing let alone reparations and all… but at least they’re not doing THAT 

 

 

Like biden and obama support. And you vote for them I can imagine. 

[byzantium]

I feel like there is a thread every day or every other day about the US doing something bad.  
 

We definitely should be critical countries, but I would push back in the idea that they should be held to the standard of perfection.  Also I think the conversation should focus on current crimes and not necessarily past crimes. Other use anyone who lives pretty much in any country with history would get condemned which is not really productive.  

[fememeist]

stick to pop music whataboutisms 

[Jjang]

1 minute ago, vale9001 said:

 

 

Like biden and obama support. And you vote for them I can imagine. 

No  I don’t live in the US either - Bernie would def be the better option tho! 

[Communion]

Of course the US is worse. But you can't remove discussions of Israel and its war crimes from the fact that Israel is a de facto satellite state of the US and only exists at this point due to US militarism and billions in defense and weapons funding. 

 

The crimes of Israel ARE the crimes of the US. 

[Headlock]

11 minutes ago, vale9001 said:

 

 

Like biden and obama support. And you vote for them I can imagine. 

This failed “gotcha” 

[getBusy]

I love that we're playing War Crime Olympics™️

Do we really need to grade and rank killers? 

[Siberian Tiger]

They are the worst. They are involved in literally any conflict/war around the world.

[style17]

anti-semitism. China is worse too. literally committing genocide.

[AMIT]

Yes, it is but also

 

[Gwendolyn]

Trash Can Vs Trash Can

[cockatoo]

7 hours ago, Communion said:

Of course the US is worse. But you can't remove discussions of Israel and its war crimes from the fact that Israel is a de facto satellite state of the US and only exists at this point due to US militarism and billions in defense and weapons funding. 

 

The crimes of Israel ARE the crimes of the US.