discussion Non-vegans who are against fur are hypocrites, agree?

[blackoutbaby]

1 hour ago, Trent W said:

Not everyone can go vegan, I tried and I couldn’t, my nutritionist banned it from my diet.

 

Another big reason is that it’s really expensive and being vegan is kind of a middle-upper class thing.

 

Most people WW can’t afford it.

 

So stop shaming people for this, it’s extremely annoying honestly 

This. Can we stop pretending like everybody’s body isn’t different? Not everyone is able to maintain a vegan diet.

[Kylizzle]

No, eating meat has a utility because we need to eat food to live. There is no utility or necessity for wearing animal fur.

[Before Today]

Yes, meat eaters should be allowed to wear fur.

[queenoftheclouds]

Being vegan is expensive and wearing fur is expensive. What is the truth now?

[suburbannature]

I think any effort, be it little or small, towards raising awareness or towards living a more eco-friendly lifestyle is helpful. 

[Navy4Life]

4 minutes ago, suburbannature said:

I think any effort, be it little or small, towards raising awareness or towards living a more eco-friendly lifestyle is helpful. 

Tbh this. 
 

I’m vegetarian and it’s really difficult (especially if you lead an active life/workout a lot and travel). For that reason I wouldn’t expect everyone to be able to do it. But people doing what they can is a step in the right direction. 

[JoeAg]

i’m gonna try going vegetarian in the fall ——> completely vegan before the new year tbh

 

anyway initial question: yes

[Armani?]

4 hours ago, khalyan said:

 

This is untrue.

The way you always try to come for vegans without being educated on the topic

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/

"It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage. Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity. Low intake of saturated fat and high intakes of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, soy products, nuts, and seeds (all rich in fiber and phytochemicals) are characteristics of vegetarian and vegan diets that produce lower total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels and better serum glucose control."

 

[45seconds]

Vegans are so annoying 

[Armani?]

4 hours ago, 50thStateofMind said:

nope, being vegan/vegetarian is a privilege...A LOT of people cannot afford it.

 

 

You don't have to eat vegan cheese/vegan meats to be a vegan

 

Whole Grains like Brown Rice/Spaghetti, Beans, and certain fruits & frozen vegetables like broccoli/sweet potatoes or oranges/bananas are not expensive. Omega 3 sources like ground flaxseed also are cheap, you can get a pound for 3$ - 4$ depending on the store. You only need 1 or 2 tablespoons a day depending on your diet set up

 

Learn how to shop

[khalyan]

6 hours ago, Armani? said:

The way you always try to come for vegans without being educated on the topic

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/

"It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage. Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity. Low intake of saturated fat and high intakes of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, soy products, nuts, and seeds (all rich in fiber and phytochemicals) are characteristics of vegetarian and vegan diets that produce lower total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels and better serum glucose control."

 

 

https://www.saintlukeskc.org/about/news/research-shows-vegan-diet-leads-nutritional-deficiencies-health-problems-plant-forward#:~:text=Compared to the standard American,%2C and high-quality protein.

 

Compared to the standard American diet of highly processed, low-fiber, high-calorie, sugary foods, vegan diets have some health advantages. However, researchers found that avoiding all animal foods may lead to nutritional deficiencies in vitamin B12, omega-3, calcium, zinc, iron, magnesium, and high-quality protein.

 

These deficiencies may be associated with increased risk for certain types of cancer, stroke, bone fractures, preterm birth, and failure to thrive. Avoiding consumption of animal-sourced food may also be related to higher rates of depression and anxiety. Hair loss, weak bones, muscle wasting, skin rashes, hypothyroidism, and anemia are other issues that have been observed in those strictly following a vegan diet.

 

--

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261561420306567

 

Regarding macronutrients, vegan diets are lower in protein intake compared with all other diet types. Veganism is also associated with low intake of vitamins B2, Niacin (B3), B12, D, iodine, zinc, calcium, potassium, selenium. Vitamin B12 intake among vegans is significantly lower (0.24–0.49 μg, recommendations are 2.4 μg) and calcium intake in the majority of vegans was below recommendations (750 mg/d).

 

--

 

From the German Nutrition Society

https://www.ernaehrungs-umschau.de/fileadmin/Ernaehrungs-Umschau/pdfs/pdf_2016/04_16/EU04_2016_Special_DGE_eng_final.pdf

 

On the basis of current scientific literature, the German Nutrition Society (DGE) has developed a position on the vegan diet. With a pure plant-based diet, it is difficult or impossible to attain an adequate supply of some nutrients. The most critical nutrient is vitamin B12. Other potentially critical nutrients in a vegan diet include protein resp. indispensable amino acids, long-chain n-3 fatty acids, other vitamins (riboflavin, vitamin D) and minerals (calcium, iron, iodine, zinc and selenium). The DGE does not recommend a vegan diet for pregnant women, lactating women, infants, children or adolescents. Persons who nevertheless wish to follow a vegan diet should permanently take a vitamin B12 supplement, pay attention to an adequate intake of nutrients, especially critical nutrients, and possibly use fortified foods or dietary supplements. They should receive advice from a nutrition counsellor and their supply of critical nutrients should be regularly checked by a physician.

 

--

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002916523238356

On the basis of our present knowledge, vegans do not appear likely to have any significant advantages over other vegetarians about chronic disease patterns (11). The vegan studies that do exist often involve only a small number of subjects. 

 

--

 

https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/7/5/3416

 

A 2009 meta-analysis (nine studies totaling 2749 subjects of which 68% were female) concluded that BMD [bone mineral density] was 4% lower in vegetarians as compared to non-vegetarians [12]. The authors inferred that fracture risk was ~10% greater for vegetarians versus non-vegetarians

 

[Armani?]

1 hour ago, khalyan said:

 

https://www.saintlukeskc.org/about/news/research-shows-vegan-diet-leads-nutritional-deficiencies-health-problems-plant-forward#:~:text=Compared to the standard American,%2C and high-quality protein.

 

Compared to the standard American diet of highly processed, low-fiber, high-calorie, sugary foods, vegan diets have some health advantages. However, researchers found that avoiding all animal foods may lead to nutritional deficiencies in vitamin B12, omega-3, calcium, zinc, iron, magnesium, and high-quality protein.

 

These deficiencies may be associated with increased risk for certain types of cancer, stroke, bone fractures, preterm birth, and failure to thrive. Avoiding consumption of animal-sourced food may also be related to higher rates of depression and anxiety. Hair loss, weak bones, muscle wasting, skin rashes, hypothyroidism, and anemia are other issues that have been observed in those strictly following a vegan diet.

 

--

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261561420306567

 

Regarding macronutrients, vegan diets are lower in protein intake compared with all other diet types. Veganism is also associated with low intake of vitamins B2, Niacin (B3), B12, D, iodine, zinc, calcium, potassium, selenium. Vitamin B12 intake among vegans is significantly lower (0.24–0.49 μg, recommendations are 2.4 μg) and calcium intake in the majority of vegans was below recommendations (750 mg/d).

 

--

 

From the German Nutrition Society

https://www.ernaehrungs-umschau.de/fileadmin/Ernaehrungs-Umschau/pdfs/pdf_2016/04_16/EU04_2016_Special_DGE_eng_final.pdf

 

On the basis of current scientific literature, the German Nutrition Society (DGE) has developed a position on the vegan diet. With a pure plant-based diet, it is difficult or impossible to attain an adequate supply of some nutrients. The most critical nutrient is vitamin B12. Other potentially critical nutrients in a vegan diet include protein resp. indispensable amino acids, long-chain n-3 fatty acids, other vitamins (riboflavin, vitamin D) and minerals (calcium, iron, iodine, zinc and selenium). The DGE does not recommend a vegan diet for pregnant women, lactating women, infants, children or adolescents. Persons who nevertheless wish to follow a vegan diet should permanently take a vitamin B12 supplement, pay attention to an adequate intake of nutrients, especially critical nutrients, and possibly use fortified foods or dietary supplements. They should receive advice from a nutrition counsellor and their supply of critical nutrients should be regularly checked by a physician.

 

--

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002916523238356

On the basis of our present knowledge, vegans do not appear likely to have any significant advantages over other vegetarians about chronic disease patterns (11). The vegan studies that do exist often involve only a small number of subjects. 

 

--

 

https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/7/5/3416

 

A 2009 meta-analysis (nine studies totaling 2749 subjects of which 68% were female) concluded that BMD [bone mineral density] was 4% lower in vegetarians as compared to non-vegetarians [12]. The authors inferred that fracture risk was ~10% greater for vegetarians versus non-vegetarians

 

We really doing this?

 

Meta Analysis for Total Cancer Risk

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10408398.2016.1138447?journalCode=bfsn20

Vegan diet conferred a significant reduced risk (−15%) of incidence from total cancer.

 

Adventist Vegans vs Adventist Omnivores (BMI, Diabetes, & Hypertension)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671114/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4073139/

The study population comprised 22,434 men and 38,469 women who participated in the Adventist Health Study-2 conducted in 2002–2006. Mean BMI was lowest in vegans (23.6 kg/m2) and incrementally higher in lacto-ovo vegetarians (25.7 kg/m2), pesco-vegetarians (26.3 kg/m2), semi-vegetarians (27.3 kg/m2), and nonvegetarians (28.8 kg/m2). Prevalence of type 2 diabetes increased from 2.9% in vegans to 7.6% in nonvegetarians; the prevalence was intermediate in participants consuming lacto-ovo (3.2%), pesco (4.8%), or semi-vegetarian (6.1%) diets. After adjustment for age, sex, ethnicity, education, income, physical activity, television watching, sleep habits, alcohol use, and BMI, vegans (OR 0.51 [95% CI 0.40–0.66]), lacto-ovo vegetarians (0.54 [0.49–0.60]), pesco-vegetarians (0.70 [0.61–0.80]), and semi-vegetarians (0.76 [0.65–0.90]) had a lower risk of type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians.

 

For hypertension, lacto-ovo-vegetarians experienced 55% lower risks; whereas, vegans had 75% risks reduction when compared to non-vegetarians. The risks reduction of diabetes for lacto-ovo-vegetarians varied between 38% and 61%; and 47% to 78% for vegans. 

 

For all cardiometabolic-related outcomes, vegans had lower risk than lacto-ovo-vegetarians compared to non-vegetarians.

 

 

Normal Vitamin B12 Status for Modern Vegans 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6566694/

About 80% of each group showed vitamin B₁₂ adequacy with higher levels in supplement users. 

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11130-018-0677-y

 Healthy adults were recruited (n = 103, 52% vegans). Dietary preferences and use of supplements were assessed by questionnaires and serum samples were collected and stored. Vitamin B12 was measured by chemiluminiscence and MMA by liquid chromatography tandem mass spectrometry (LC-MS/MS) using solid phase extraction for sample preparation. Obtained values, median (IQR), were: vitamin B12, 278.9 (160.2) pmol/l and MMA, 140.2 (78.9) nmol/l. No significant differences between lacto-ovo vegetarians and vegans were observed. Considering these two markers, 10% of the participants were mild vitamin B12 deficient. Supplementation (75% of the participants) was associated with higher vitamin B12 (p < 0.001) and lower MMA (p = 0.012). In conclusion, Spanish vegetarians have low risk of vitamin B12 deficiency due to vitamin B12 supplementation and the MMA determination is useful to detect mild deficiency.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26502280/

Despite negligible dietary vitamin B12 intake in the vegan group, deficiency of this particular vitamin was low in all groups thanks to widespread use of supplements.

 

Omnivores had the lowest intake of Mg, vitamin C, vitamin E, niacin and folic acid. Vegans reported low intakes of Ca and a marginal consumption of the vitamins D and B12. The highest prevalence for vitamin and mineral deficiencies in each group was as follows: in the omnivorous group, for folic acid (58 %); in the vegetarian group, for vitamin B6 and niacin (58 and 34 %, respectively); and in the vegan group, for Zn (47 %). 

 

Cholesterol 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17364116/

76 Partipants 

 

https://veganhealth.org/chronic-disease-and-vegetarian-diets/cardiovascular-disease-markers-in-vegans/#cholesterol-usa

Between 1980 and 2002, cholesterol levels of vegans living in Western countries was measured in 17 studies. The average cholesterol level of vegans was 160 compared to 202 mg/dl for non-vegetarians. Table 2 shows the results.

TABLE 2. CHOLESTEROL IN WESTERN VEGANS (1980-2002)
	Vegan	Lacto-Ovo	Pesco	Non-Veg
Cholesterol (mg/dl)	160.0 (749)a	185.3 (2,135)a	196.2 (467)a	201.5 (1,857)a
LDL (mg/dl)	90.3 (398)a	106.0 (1,859)a	113.7 (467)a	120.9 (1,516)a
HDL (mg/dl)	51.9 (472)a	56.7 (1,898)a	61.0 (467)a	55.0 (1,587)a
Cholesterol : HDL	3.1	3.3	3.2	3.7
aNumber of people measured Sources: Allen, 2000; Bissoli, 2002; Fisher, 1986; Fokkema, 2000; Haddad, 1999; Krajcovicová-Kudlácková, 2000; Kritchevsky, 1984; Li, 1999; Lock, 1982; Roshanai, 1984; Sanders, 1978; Sanders, 1987; Sanders, 1992; Thomas, 1996; Thorogood, 1987; Thorogood, 1990; Toohey, 1998;

 

Higher LDL Cholesterol is CAUSAL to heart disease/atherosclerosis

https://pace-cme.org/2019/04/01/elevated-ldl-c-is-causal-of-atherosclerosis/

 

https://www.escardio.org/Journals/E-Journal-of-Cardiology-Practice/Volume-18/what-is-the-role-of-lipids-in-atherosclerosis-and-how-low-should-we-decrease-lip

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18173952/

 

Vitamin D is not a Vegan Issue

https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-021-11888-1

Our study, based on our selection criteria was narrowed down to a total of 44,717 participants; which spanned over 65 studies from five South Asian countries. Overall, the pooled prevalence of deficiency was 68% [95% CI: 64 to 72%] with significant heterogeneity (I2 = 98%; p = 0.00). 

 

https://www.cooperinstitute.org/blog/african-americans-at-greatest-risk-of-vitamin-d-deficiency

An estimated 40% of American adults may be vitamin D deficient. For African-Americans, that number may be nearly double at 76% according to a new study by The Cooper Institute.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Armani?

[Aethereal]

12 hours ago, GraceRandolph said:

How are they NOT blatant hypocrites? 

Not everyone can handle a vegan diet. Meat is necessary for many of us. Fur is not a utility. 

Also if you think you can shame meat eaters into abandoning their omnivore lifestyle  you're sadly mistaken.

They will normalize wearing fur instead of going vegan if having to choose one. So this strategy does not do you any good.

 

And less suffering does matter. There are animals who are only hunted for their fur. So instead of calling us hypocrite view it as progress instead.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Aristotle

[khalyan]

1 minute ago, Armani? said:

We really doing this?

 

Meta Analysis for Total Cancer Risk

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10408398.2016.1138447?journalCode=bfsn20

Vegan diet conferred a significant reduced risk (−15%) of incidence from total cancer.

 

Adventist Vegans vs Adventist Omnivores (BMI, Diabetes, & Hypertension)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671114/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4073139/

The study population comprised 22,434 men and 38,469 women who participated in the Adventist Health Study-2 conducted in 2002–2006. Mean BMI was lowest in vegans (23.6 kg/m2) and incrementally higher in lacto-ovo vegetarians (25.7 kg/m2), pesco-vegetarians (26.3 kg/m2), semi-vegetarians (27.3 kg/m2), and nonvegetarians (28.8 kg/m2). Prevalence of type 2 diabetes increased from 2.9% in vegans to 7.6% in nonvegetarians; the prevalence was intermediate in participants consuming lacto-ovo (3.2%), pesco (4.8%), or semi-vegetarian (6.1%) diets. After adjustment for age, sex, ethnicity, education, income, physical activity, television watching, sleep habits, alcohol use, and BMI, vegans (OR 0.51 [95% CI 0.40–0.66]), lacto-ovo vegetarians (0.54 [0.49–0.60]), pesco-vegetarians (0.70 [0.61–0.80]), and semi-vegetarians (0.76 [0.65–0.90]) had a lower risk of type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians.

 

For hypertension, lacto-ovo-vegetarians experienced 55% lower risks; whereas, vegans had 75% risks reduction when compared to non-vegetarians. The risks reduction of diabetes for lacto-ovo-vegetarians varied between 38% and 61%; and 47% to 78% for vegans. 

 

For all cardiometabolic-related outcomes, vegans had lower risk than lacto-ovo-vegetarians compared to non-vegetarians.

 

 

Normal Vitamin B12 Status for Modern Vegans 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6566694/

About 80% of each group showed vitamin B₁₂ adequacy with higher levels in supplement users. 

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11130-018-0677-y

 Healthy adults were recruited (n = 103, 52% vegans). Dietary preferences and use of supplements were assessed by questionnaires and serum samples were collected and stored. Vitamin B12 was measured by chemiluminiscence and MMA by liquid chromatography tandem mass spectrometry (LC-MS/MS) using solid phase extraction for sample preparation. Obtained values, median (IQR), were: vitamin B12, 278.9 (160.2) pmol/l and MMA, 140.2 (78.9) nmol/l. No significant differences between lacto-ovo vegetarians and vegans were observed. Considering these two markers, 10% of the participants were mild vitamin B12 deficient. Supplementation (75% of the participants) was associated with higher vitamin B12 (p < 0.001) and lower MMA (p = 0.012). In conclusion, Spanish vegetarians have low risk of vitamin B12 deficiency due to vitamin B12 supplementation and the MMA determination is useful to detect mild deficiency.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26502280/

Despite negligible dietary vitamin B12 intake in the vegan group, deficiency of this particular vitamin was low in all groups thanks to widespread use of supplements.

 

Cholesterol 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17364116/

76 Partipants 

 

https://veganhealth.org/chronic-disease-and-vegetarian-diets/cardiovascular-disease-markers-in-vegans/#cholesterol-usa

Between 1980 and 2002, cholesterol levels of vegans living in Western countries was measured in 17 studies. The average cholesterol level of vegans was 160 compared to 202 mg/dl for non-vegetarians. Table 2 shows the results.

TABLE 2. CHOLESTEROL IN WESTERN VEGANS (1980-2002)
	Vegan	Lacto-Ovo	Pesco	Non-Veg
Cholesterol (mg/dl)	160.0 (749)a	185.3 (2,135)a	196.2 (467)a	201.5 (1,857)a
LDL (mg/dl)	90.3 (398)a	106.0 (1,859)a	113.7 (467)a	120.9 (1,516)a
HDL (mg/dl)	51.9 (472)a	56.7 (1,898)a	61.0 (467)a	55.0 (1,587)a
Cholesterol : HDL	3.1	3.3	3.2	3.7
aNumber of people measured Sources: Allen, 2000; Bissoli, 2002; Fisher, 1986; Fokkema, 2000; Haddad, 1999; Krajcovicová-Kudlácková, 2000; Kritchevsky, 1984; Li, 1999; Lock, 1982; Roshanai, 1984; Sanders, 1978; Sanders, 1987; Sanders, 1992; Thomas, 1996; Thorogood, 1987; Thorogood, 1990; Toohey, 1998;

 

Higher LDL Cholesterol is CAUSAL to heart disease/atherosclerosis

https://pace-cme.org/2019/04/01/elevated-ldl-c-is-causal-of-atherosclerosis/

 

https://www.escardio.org/Journals/E-Journal-of-Cardiology-Practice/Volume-18/what-is-the-role-of-lipids-in-atherosclerosis-and-how-low-should-we-decrease-lip

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18173952/

 

 

 

BMI is not a good indicator of healthy weight, so any use of BMI in scientific studies renders those results inaccurate. 

 

Also, the second study talks about those who actively supplement, however a healthy diet should involve no supplementation.  So that study indicates the same issues with the vegan diet as the studies I provided.

 

Another issue with studies that show veganism as healthy is that they compare it to the average American/European diet which I agree, is healthier.  However, a properly planned whole food orientated, high vegetable omnivore diet or a lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet tends to be healthier than what can be accomplished with strict vegan diets.  The amount of supplementation needed in a vegan diet to make it viable is unrealistic for a large portion of the world.

 

The issue a lot of people have with vegan activists is that it's all or nothing.  I try my best to eat a balanced whole food omnivore diet.  I do not eat beef or pork, I eat very limited amounts of chicken and turkey and get most of my protein from fish, eggs, and dairy.  When I purchase meat products, I try to get pasture raised products or other alternatives rather than the cheap mass produced products that obviously have issues with animal wellbeing.  On other products, I try to use and support companies that do not do animal testing and are clean for the environment.  So how is it appropriate for a member to call someone like myself "psychotic" when myself and plenty others do actively take steps to promote animal well being as much as possible for us?  

[GraceRandolph]

13 minutes ago, khalyan said:

 

 

 

BMI is not a good indicator of healthy weight, so any use of BMI in scientific studies renders those results inaccurate. 

 

Also, the second study talks about those who actively supplement, however a healthy diet should involve no supplementation.  So that study indicates the same issues with the vegan diet as the studies I provided.

 

Another issue with studies that show veganism as healthy is that they compare it to the average American/European diet which I agree, is healthier.  However, a properly planned whole food orientated, high vegetable omnivore diet or a lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet tends to be healthier than what can be accomplished with strict vegan diets.  The amount of supplementation needed in a vegan diet to make it viable is unrealistic for a large portion of the world.

 

The issue a lot of people have with vegan activists is that it's all or nothing.  I try my best to eat a balanced whole food omnivore diet.  I do not eat beef or pork, I eat very limited amounts of chicken and turkey and get most of my protein from fish, eggs, and dairy.  When I purchase meat products, I try to get pasture raised products or other alternatives rather than the cheap mass produced products that obviously have issues with animal wellbeing.  On other products, I try to use and support companies that do not do animal testing and are clean for the environment.  So how is it appropriate for a member to call someone like myself "psychotic" when myself and plenty others do actively take steps to promote animal well being as much as possible for us?  

The problem with messaging like this is that meat eaters as a collective don’t share any conviction towards animal wellbeing, and the steps towards a so-called ethical and sustainable non-vegan diet is never made clear. Does it include grass fed beef? Cage free eggs? Hunting your own food? Artisanal cheeses? Reducetarianism? Pescatarianism? Some of these diets and lifestyle changes are even more inaccessible than a vegan diet for many people.

[khalyan]

5 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said:

The problem with messaging like this is that meat eaters as a collective don’t share any conviction towards animal wellbeing, and the steps towards a so-called ethical and sustainable non-vegan diet is never made clear. Does it include grass fed beef? Cage free eggs? Hunting your own food? Artisanal cheeses? Reducetarianism? Pescatarianism? Some of these diets and lifestyle changes are even more inaccessible than a vegan diet for many people.

That is just your assumption of meat eaters.  It’s not an issue with the messaging. 

[GraceRandolph]

2 minutes ago, khalyan said:

That is just your assumption of meat eaters.  It’s not an issue with the messaging. 

No, it’s not an assumption. Meat eaters as a whole have no collective ethical principle guiding them, a few may make ethical choices or care about animal wellbeing, but plenty don’t. If meat eaters want to start a movement for improved treatment of animals they can, but I frequently encounter meat eaters who view this as frivolous or unimportant, and many climate change deniers exist. 

Edited May 20, 2023 by GraceRandolph

[khalyan]

13 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said:

No, it’s not an assumption. Meat eaters as a whole have no collective ethical principle guiding them, a few may make ethical choices or care about animal wellbeing, but plenty don’t. If meat eaters want to start a movement for improved treatment of animals they can, but I frequently encounter meat eaters who view this as frivolous or unimportant, and many climate change deniers exist. 

Just because someone eats meat doesn’t mean they don’t believe in climate change   You can’t make these false equivalencies - just like saying those who consume dairy are rape apologists.  It hurts your cause more than it helps it. 

[Armani?]

53 minutes ago, khalyan said:

 

 

 

Also, the second study talks about those who actively supplement, however a healthy diet should involve no supplementation.  So that study indicates the same issues with the vegan diet as the studies I provided.

Another issue with studies that show veganism as healthy is that they compare it to the average American/European diet which I agree, is healthier. 

There's a natural vegan source of Vitamin B12(Water Lentils/Duckweed) so if you want to play the "natural is always better" logical fallacy card you can get it through this food.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/parabel-announces-natural-plant-source-of-vitamin-b12-in-water-lentils-and-lentein-plant-protein-1028697181
Independent third-party laboratory testing has confirmed that Parabel's water lentil crop and the ingredient LENTEIN® plant protein contain the natural bioactive forms of Vitamin B 12 adenosylcobalamin, methycobalamin, and hydroxocobalamin. The water lentil, or duckweed as it is commonly called, was shown to contain approximately 750 % of the US recommended daily value of the bioactive forms of Vitamin B12 (per 100 grams of dry plant).

 

https://www.clinicalnutritionjournal.com/article/S0261-5614(18)32577-9/fulltext

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/329559531_Protein_bioavailability_of_Wolffia_globosa_duckweed_a_novel_aquatic_plant_-_A_randomized_controlled_trial

Wolffia globosa is an aquatic, edible duckweed

 

The 3 h blood concentrations of the EAAs: histidine, phenylalanine, threonine, lysine, and tryptophan, triggered by intake of Mankai, was essentially significant as compared to baseline (p < 0.05) and similar to that of soft cheese and pea changes (p > 0.05 between groups). Although branched-chain-amino-acids (leucine/isoleucine, valine) increased significantly by Mankai within 3 h (p < 0.05 vs. baseline), the change was relatively higher for cheese as compared to Mankai or peas (p < 0.05 between groups). The increase in vitamin B12 by Mankai was higher as compared to changes induced by either cheese (p=0.007) or peas (p=0.047, between groups).

 

Mankai may provide a high-quality substitute source for animal protein, and a potential bioavailable source of vitamin B12.

 

 

The Adventists, which I linked earlier are not average Meat Eaters. Their population has a significantly higher life expectancy than the rest of the US. Vegans still do better than them on average in their own studies

https://adventisthealthstudy.org/studies/AHS-1/findings-longevity

Findings estimated that men in AHS-1 lived 7.3 years longer and AHS-1 women 4.4 years longer, on average than their California counterparts. 

 

[GraceRandolph]

13 minutes ago, khalyan said:

Just because someone eats meat doesn’t mean they don’t believe in climate change   You can’t make these false equivalencies - just like saying those who consume dairy are rape apologists.  It hurts your cause more than it helps it. 

I did NOT say that eating meat = climate denialism, but there ARE plenty of meat eaters who don’t believe in climate change compared to ethical vegans, and plenty of meat eaters just don’t give a damn about animal welfare. I refuse to play into what amounts to respectability politics to make meat eaters and carnists more comfortable. The idea that flowery language or some hypothetical reality where vegans are all sunshine and rainbows would suddenly mean our “message” is embraced by carnists is patently ridiculous. Do you think gay people being nice would’ve made homophobic religious people change their mind on its own? No way, a huge part of activism is confronting people with harsh realities and not playing into a dominant worldview which is already hostile towards the change you are trying to bring about. 

[shinyshimmery]

I don't think "hypocrite" is the right word. Sometimes you simply can't have it all. The same argument could be said about environmentalists who live in 2,000+ sqft homes that are air conditioned year-long. At the end of the day, you need to eat... and have a roof over your head to survive. 

[Armani?]

1 hour ago, khalyan said:

The amount of supplementation needed in a vegan diet to make it viable is unrealistic for a large portion of the world.

 

The issue a lot of people have with vegan activists is that it's all or nothing.  I try my best to eat a balanced whole food omnivore diet. 

 

You only have to take Vitamin B12 as a vegan. Also Vitamin D but that's not vegan specific. Everything else depends on how you plan your diet

 

The issue is there is no long term health benefit of a "healthy" omnivorous diet compared to a healthy vegan diet on a population scale on average

 

Vegans are clearing with the lower heart disease risk, lower cancer risk, lower diabetes risk, lower obesity risk and lower hypertension risk.

 

Omnivores having possibly 4% more bone density is not really compelling in comparison 

[khalyan]

1 minute ago, Armani? said:

You only have to take Vitamin B12 as a vegan. Also Vitamin D but that's not vegan specific

 

The issue is there is no long term health benefit of a "healthy" omnivorous diet compared to a healthy vegan diet on a population scale on average

 

Vegans are clearing with the lower heart disease risk, lower cancer risk, lower diabetes risk, lower obesity risk and lower hypertension risk.

 

Omnivores having possibly 4% more bone density is not really compelling in comparison 

Go relook at my post

 

“However, researchers found that avoiding all animal foods may lead to nutritional deficiencies in vitamin B12, omega-3, calcium, zinc, iron, magnesium, and high-quality protein.“

[GraceRandolph]

30 minutes ago, khalyan said:

Go relook at my post

 

“However, researchers found that avoiding all animal foods may lead to nutritional deficiencies in vitamin B12, omega-3, calcium, zinc, iron, magnesium, and high-quality protein.“

So when it comes to potential downsides of a vegan diet your solution is to throw the baby out with the bath water, but when it comes to the downsides and ethical concerns of a non-vegan diet? Moderation bro!!!!

[GraceRandolph]

45 minutes ago, Armani? said:

You only have to take Vitamin B12 as a vegan. Also Vitamin D but that's not vegan specific. Everything else depends on how you plan your diet

 

The issue is there is no long term health benefit of a "healthy" omnivorous diet compared to a healthy vegan diet on a population scale on average

 

Vegans are clearing with the lower heart disease risk, lower cancer risk, lower diabetes risk, lower obesity risk and lower hypertension risk.

 

Omnivores having possibly 4% more bone density is not really compelling in comparison 

Not all doctors even recommend supplementing B12.