discussion Muslim extremists intimidate and chase out LGBT students at a high school in Belgium

[Harrier]

19 minutes ago, Communion said:

I think there's two differences that have led the conversation around Muslim communities to be different here than it has unfolded over the years within Europe.

 

1) America is founded on religious liberty. Secularism in America is the inclusion of all faiths within public life. Emphasis is placed on America as a multi-faith nation. It's clear secularism in Europe means the erasure of religion from public life. Inclusionary policies like a woman's right to wear the hijab even if she holds office are often controversial and deemed as inappropriate in many places within Europe.

 

Historically, Muslim Americans have worked with Jewish Americans to stop laws that "ban Sharia" because Jewish Americans recognize such as no different than laws to ban Halakha. And that to "ban Sharia" or "ban Halakha" is really an attempt to ban being Muslim or Jewish. Religious liberty is fundamental to the American identity. 

 

The popularization of gay rights did not come from disenfranchising the religious, but public discourse that religiosity was not at odds with supporting LGBTQ people. And while the GOP in 2023 are indeed Christo-fascists, these kind of tactics are only because conservatives know LGBTQ acceptance is at an all time high.

 

2) This in turn, also deals with the way Europe has a "colorblind" approach to identity that simply does not exist in much of the way both racial justice and social justice have formed over decades in the US.

 

Look at the language used in this thread. LGBT people who willingly support and befriend Muslim people - their neighbors, co-workers, friends - are framed as "supporting an ideology that wants them dead".

 

By virtue of what unfolded in a post 9/11 America, there is an understanding of why such racializing and dehumanizing language about Muslims is inherently harmful that seems to have passed many Europeans by.

 

This isn't to whitewash America. I'm sure many Muslim Americans may have negative experiences within America, and as an atheist I wouldn't deny them those feelings. And we both know the evils behind the War on Terror.

 

But these conversations continually - ironically - expose an inexperience to coalition build with the religious, as well as purposeful ignorance to the racialization of religious minorities. "Muslims are a religion, not a race!".  This kind of discourse and 'sore spots' have simply already occurred within American progressivism around the religiosity of things like older black voters who, despite initial claims, end up supportive of LGBT people.

 

Not to be silly, but there's a reason why Gaga said "God makes no mistakes!" and not "God is a lie!".  I mentioned previously that refugees are indeed where America and Europe may greatly differ, but also take issue in those who seem to ignore that displaced people are going to be hesitant to change from a culture they didn't want to leave. See also: those fear-mongering over Muslim refugees while silent over Muslim nations being bombed.

 

These challenges will present themselves and it will take work to integrate people, but it is quite literally the responsibility of the state to ensure these outcomes and not allow things like ghettoization. And for what it's worth, American Muslims are actually largely diverse across race, ethnicity and notably class:

 

Thanks for your post it was an interesting read. One thing that I strongly agree with you on is that it's much more productive to talk about it as 'conservativism' within a community rather than attaching the issue to a particular religion or religious text. I've definitely been guilty of that in the past.

 

The reality is these religions are changeable and adapt to changing social values. There isn't anything about Islam that makes it more inherently homophobic than the other Abrahamic religions. It depends on how much certain groups choose to emphasize parts of their texts or teaching that are anti-LGBT. That's a mistake I see all of the girls in here making with the essentializing.

 

That isn't to deny the present reality that Muslims worldwide are broadly very conservative on this issue. I think some leftists have a tendency to handwave away this point because there's an instinctive discomfort with any negative characterization of a minority group; and understandable and noble instinct. But the point is that it's changeable and that proper integration is achievable with all kinds of immigrants, whether it be refugees or not.

 

And I think you're totally right that diversity-minded politics that actually does commit to stuff like 'LGBT against Islamophobia' is actually a road to that, even though the gays might react emotionally.

[ClashAndBurn]

14 hours ago, LikeATattoo said:

“But what about white Evangelicals being awful too?”

In what world are white Evangelicals a marginalized or oppressed minority? When, if anything, Christians have historically been the ones who've been doing the marginalization and oppression since the Crusades. They're the ones who've conquered and enslaved people of other races and religions throughout history who haven't completely faded out, whereas Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, and the Mongols all have. They still hold immeasurable power today, especially in the United States and throughout Europe (especially in the Eastern Bloc).

 

But sure. Muslims, who hold no real collective power in any singular Western Country that is remotely comparable to what the Evangelicals exert on their societies, are the real problem here.  

[harwee]

Yikes.

 

Chilling and gross.

 

 

 

[Sergi91]

Poor students. Hopefully the school administration does something about it. 

[A.R.L]

6 hours ago, Samsara said:

 

 

Communism & Nazism by far surpass the death toll in all religious wars combined. Two of the deadliest wars in history, WW1&2, had nothing to do with religion. The worst genocides and suppression of liberties happened under officially atheist states. Religion continues to exist today because it’s relatively harmless compared to these secularist ideologies.

You will never know for sure the real statistic behind religion crimes for obvious reasons and religion still exists today because of ignorance and the money it generates, it’s a business after all

[A.R.L]

4 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said:

In what world are white Evangelicals a marginalized or oppressed minority? When, if anything, Christians have historically been the ones who've been doing the marginalization and oppression since the Crusades. They're the ones who've conquered and enslaved people of other races and religions throughout history who haven't completely faded out, whereas Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, and the Mongols all have. They still hold immeasurable power today, especially in the United States and throughout Europe (especially in the Eastern Bloc).

 

But sure. Muslims, who hold no real collective power in any singular Western Country that is remotely comparable to what the Evangelicals exert on their societies, are the real problem here.  

Girl, slavery is something that is accepted in the quran and practiced by islamic countries until 1980 when the UN finally stopped it and it exists under any group that rules sharia (taliban) and I won't even start with conquest and oppression because islam doesn't have a clean record on that either

Edited May 15, 2023 by A.R.L

[thetea]

4 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said:

In what world are white Evangelicals a marginalized or oppressed minority? When, if anything, Christians have historically been the ones who've been doing the marginalization and oppression since the Crusades. They're the ones who've conquered and enslaved people of other races and religions throughout history who haven't completely faded out, whereas Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, and the Mongols all have. They still hold immeasurable power today, especially in the United States and throughout Europe (especially in the Eastern Bloc).

 

But sure. Muslims, who hold no real collective power in any singular Western Country that is remotely comparable to what the Evangelicals exert on their societies, are the real problem here.  

this. people are just nitpicking and being selectively outraged. christianity has also been part of the  cause of colonisation in a lot places because of missionaries. 

[Chemist]

5 hours ago, Communion said:

I think there's two differences that have led the conversation around Muslim communities to be different here than it has unfolded over the years within Europe.

 

1) America is founded on religious liberty. Secularism in America is the inclusion of all faiths within public life. Emphasis is placed on America as a multi-faith nation. It's clear secularism in Europe means the erasure of religion from public life. Inclusionary policies like a woman's right to wear the hijab even if she holds office are often controversial and deemed as inappropriate in many places within Europe.

 

Historically, Muslim Americans have worked with Jewish Americans to stop laws that "ban Sharia" because Jewish Americans recognize such as no different than laws to ban Halakha. And that to "ban Sharia" or "ban Halakha" is really an attempt to ban being Muslim or Jewish. Religious liberty is fundamental to the American identity. 

 

The popularization of gay rights did not come from disenfranchising the religious, but public discourse that religiosity was not at odds with supporting LGBTQ people. And while the GOP in 2023 are indeed Christo-fascists, these kind of tactics are only because conservatives know LGBTQ acceptance is at an all time high.

 

2) This in turn, also deals with the way Europe has a "colorblind" approach to identity that simply does not exist in much of the way both racial justice and social justice have formed over decades in the US.

 

Look at the language used in this thread. LGBT people who willingly support and befriend Muslim people - their neighbors, co-workers, friends - are framed as "supporting an ideology that wants them dead".

 

By virtue of what unfolded in a post 9/11 America, there is an understanding of why such racializing and dehumanizing language about Muslims is inherently harmful that seems to have passed many Europeans by.

 

This isn't to whitewash America. I'm sure many Muslim Americans may have negative experiences within America, and as an atheist I wouldn't deny them those feelings. And we both know the evils behind the War on Terror.

 

But these conversations continually - ironically - expose an inexperience to coalition build with the religious, as well as purposeful ignorance to the racialization of religious minorities. "Muslims are a religion, not a race!".  This kind of discourse and 'sore spots' have simply already occurred within American progressivism around the religiosity of things like older black voters who, despite initial claims, end up supportive of LGBT people.

 

Not to be silly, but there's a reason why Gaga said "God makes no mistakes!" and not "God is a lie!".  I mentioned previously that refugees are indeed where America and Europe may greatly differ, but also take issue in those who seem to ignore that displaced people are going to be hesitant to change from a culture they didn't want to leave. See also: those fear-mongering over Muslim refugees while silent over Muslim nations being bombed.

 

These challenges will present themselves and it will take work to integrate people, but it is quite literally the responsibility of the state to ensure these outcomes and not allow things like ghettoization. And for what it's worth, American Muslims are actually largely diverse across race, ethnicity and notably class:

 

I think it is simply because there are more Muslims in Europe than in America. Muslims in Europe are like Latinos in the US. They may not necessarily feel the need to integrate into their host country since there is such a significant number of them. It's possible to lead a normal life without even speaking the language of the host country. European Muslims tend to be more conservative when compared to their American counterparts. As an example, Turkish Germans overwhelmingly voted for Erdogan in yesterday's elections, while he lost big time among Turkish Americans

[ClashAndBurn]

26 minutes ago, A.R.L said:

Girl, slavery is something that is accepted in the quran

Slavery is explicitly accepted in the Bible as well, so...????

 

Also Christian politicians Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama turned Libya into a slave market just a decade ago. like... 

Edited May 15, 2023 by ClashAndBurn

[ABeyBraith]

Disgusting vermin 

[A.R.L]

Just now, ClashAndBurn said:

Slavery is explicitly accepted in the Bible as well, so...????

So both religions are harmful to humanity, not only christians who are the ones who did this and that as u claimed, but muslims  having no power, it doesn’t make them any less harmful, in fact the problem with islam now is more than christianity due to the fact that islam doesn’t evolve

[A.R.L]

14 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

Also Christian politicians Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama turned Libya into a slave market just a decade ago. like... 

I’m sure that the muslims Gaddafi and the qataris who also contributed to the destruction of Libya are more religious, and truly practice their religion than both Hillary and Barack combined 

[campelo]

always Belgium smh 

[Heirloom]

I'm sorry as a queer living in Muslim majority country, the defense over Muslim's view on LGBTQ+ makes me itch

 

Like yeah sure I'm all for religious diversity and tolerance, but living in here for a long time I think I've accepted that despite the presence of queer concept in traditional cultures, LGBTQ+ concept is mainly a New Western concept. And Islam, as historically have been long-standing "rival" over the West, is having a hard-time on accepting this value, especially as that value has been opposed since the dawn of Islam itself.

 

Sure, now there is a "big mass" of Muslims in USA who has been accepting LGBTQ+, but I'm pretty sure it's because the exposure of Western values through media and education. Now compare that to the people who is living in majorly Muslim country, even the lenient one like Kazakhstan or other Central Asian countries.

 

https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/09/24/kazakhstan-supreme-court-upholds-privacy-rights

 

Now it's even scarier because I've witnessed it by myself how many NGO or educational organizations in my country are getting funded by extremist Islam to radicalize Muslims more. And this is not only something that happened regionally, it happen globally including in Europe.

 

I truly, truly hope that any of you finds queer friend from Muslim-majority country and hear their personal stories. Heck, even my friend who is coming from a "modernized" Muslim state like Turkey condemn that religion.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Heirloom

[SlowGinFizzzz]

On 5/14/2023 at 7:39 AM, HANZ94 said:

Muslims being extremely homophobic?

 

shocking 

 

[ClashAndBurn]

1 hour ago, A.R.L said:

So both religions are harmful to humanity, not only christians who are the ones who did this and that as u claimed, but muslims  having no power, it doesn’t make them any less harmful, in fact the problem with islam now is more than christianity due to the fact that islam doesn’t evolve

Not even remotely what I argued. Christianity hasn't even evolved either. It's still just as oppressive and violent. It's just not the dominating force in governing that it was even two decades ago, and has lost some of its influence and edge as people have secularized more. Countries that are under constant duress, facing coups and illegal invasions constantly while under the thumb of Western intelligence agencies and militaries, do not have the ability to secularize and often resort to seeking authoritarian demagogues that promise them safety and security from America's christofascist thugs.  

 

1 hour ago, A.R.L said:

I’m sure that the muslims Gaddafi and the qataris who also contributed to the destruction of Libya are more religious, and truly practice their religion than both Hillary and Barack combined 

And that matters HOW? You're just full of non sequiturs and irrelevant arguments aren't you?  

 

The point is, "Good Christian people" like Obama, Joe Biden, and Clinton imposed their will on another country's population and left them far worse off than they were under a literal DICTATOR. "Good Christian people" like Bush, Cheney, Colin Powell/Condoleezza Rice did the same when they began their decades-long bombing campaigns in Afghanistan as they tore the country apart looking for Osama Bin Laden, only to fail and have him be found by the next administration NOT EVEN IN THAT COUNTRY. Neoconservative christofascists like them have been continuously destabilizing the world as a whole since the end of WWII. And you're surprised that the Muslim world doesn't take kindly to the West invading them and overthrowing their governments to bolster America's global hegemony? PLEASE.  

[LikeATattoo]

9 hours ago, Communion said:

"How dare you claim I am a bigot and negatively stereotyping Muslims on the basis of their identity?"

 

*2 seconds later*

 

"No Muslim can genuinely be accepting of LGBTQ people and any who claims to do is doing so for personal gain"

Once again, that’s not what I said. I said that you’d be hard-pressed to find a Muslim MP in the UK whose views on queer people actually reflected those of the majority Muslim population, because that would result in limited (if existent) electability based on stereotypes surrounding Islamic homophobia.
 

And you already know that I said that, because the next part of that quote (which you strategically cut off in your retelling of it—once again to decontextualise what I said—because you’re a natural-born manipulator) reads,

 

”Muslims are even more harshly stereotyped for violent homophobia in the UK than they are in the US. Muslim Brits seeking to hold any kind of office would be stupid not to publicly support LGBT communities, considering how quickly and ferociously demonised that they tend to get when they’re even implied to be “traditionally” Muslim.”

 

I provided an explanation as to why Muslim MPs are more harshly scrutinised and thus, more pressurised to be pro-LGBT, and like only a self-aggrandising, brownie-point hunting leftie performance artist would, you framed it as something callous.

 

You’re weaponised naïveté got boring several pages ago.

 

9 hours ago, Communion said:

It's probably best to just report the one post of yours that objectively crosses the line instead of going back and forth. Good luck! 

Predictable that you would resort to crying to the mods in place of actually addressing 87.5% of what I’ve said to you LOL. When people scan over this conversation, they’ll see you that you’ve put a titanic effort into avoiding pretty much all of my key points (even after having said that you were finally ready to address them ).

Edited May 15, 2023 by LikeATattoo

[LikeATattoo]

9 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said:

In what world are white Evangelicals a marginalized or oppressed minority?

When did I characterise Christians (in the West) as anything resembling a marginalised or oppressed minority? I said that the whataboutist approach of bringing up Christian bigotry—namely that of the white Evangelical variety—was an empty action because queer commentary in the West discusses and drags Christian homophobia every bit as much as it does Islamic homophobia.

 

9 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said:

But sure. Muslims, who hold no real collective power in any singular Western Country that is remotely comparable to what the Evangelicals exert on their societies, are the real problem here.  

Queerphobia (whether religion-fuelled or not) is a problem in all of its forms, let me be crystal clear on that.

Edited May 15, 2023 by LikeATattoo

[State of Grace.]

3 hours ago, Heirloom said:

I'm sorry as a queer living in Muslim majority country, the defense over Muslim's view on LGBTQ+ makes me itch

But no one is here defending their views on LGBTQ+ rights though...? We are simply calling out the problematic behaviour of putting all Muslims in one group and essentializing them. That only results in more bigotry against any immigrant from those countries (which includes queer people/ex-Muslims like us btw) and gives right-wingers a free pass to achieve their mass deportation dream lbr.

 

I do cosign the rest of your post though.

Edited May 15, 2023 by State of Grace.

[LikeATattoo]

On 5/14/2023 at 6:23 AM, Lovesong said:

Watch THAT Ariana stan to pop here and defend this. 

As a newer member, I could never have anticipated how accurate that this would be LOL

[LikeATattoo]

6 minutes ago, State of Grace. said:

But no one is here defending their views on LGBTQ+ rights though...? We are simply calling out the problematic behaviour of putting all Muslims in one group and essentializing them. That only results in more bigotry against any immigrant from those countries (which includes queer people/ex-Muslims like us btw) and gives right-wingers a free pass to achieve their mass deportation dream lbr.

 

I do cosign the rest of your post though.

(Please tell me if I’m coming off as intrusive with this) What is your relationship with your family like? Are they all Muslim? My queer Muslim and ex-Muslim friends’ post-coming out experiences with their families are a very mixed bag so I’m always curious to hear more perspectives.

[State of Grace.]

37 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

(Please tell me if I’m coming off as intrusive with this) What is your relationship with your family like? Are they all Muslim? My queer Muslim and ex-Muslim friends’ post-coming out experiences with their families are a very mixed bag so I’m always curious to hear more perspectives.

(No you're good) I'm not out yet to my family even though they might have their suspicions. They are Muslim but not very strict (the kind that celebrates Ramadan, prays casually, has several men drinking alcohol, etc). Still homophobic though lol. We rarely address the topic in our house but when do it gets a bit heated.mp3 so it's like an elephant in the room. My relationship with them outside of that is much better than others like me so I consider myself a bit "lucky" I guess.

 

I never recall myself actually having to come to anyone in my life. It's always been more of a "iykyk" thing () and I just confirm/deny it when I get asked depending on the person and whether I feel comfortable enough around them. If I like someone enough, then I'll just be my true self and let them catch on. That's what happened with most of my best friends. I personally believe that coming out only puts more pressure on some queer people, but hey if you feel ready and you actually want to do it, then I'm really happy for you. Always love reading about coming out stories especially from people who grew up in bigoted families/communities.

 

Some of my queer friends had very different experiences ranging from total acceptance to "lets pretend it doesn't exist" to actually being disowned though.

Edited May 15, 2023 by State of Grace.

[LikeATattoo]

28 minutes ago, State of Grace. said:

(No you're good) I'm not out yet to my family even though they might have their suspicions. They are Muslim but not very strict (the kind that celebrates Ramadan, prays casually, has several men drinking alcohol, etc). Still homophobic though lol. We rarely address the topic in our house but when do it gets a bit heated.mp3 so it's like an elephant in the room. My relationship with them outside of that is much better than others like me so I consider myself a bit "lucky" I guess.

 

I never recall myself actually having to come to anyone in my life. It's always been more of a "iykyk" thing () and I just confirm/deny it when I get asked depending on the person and whether I feel comfortable enough around them. If I like someone enough, then I'll just be my true self and let them catch on. That's what happened with most of my best friends. I personally believe that coming out only puts more pressure on some queer people, but hey if you feel ready and you actually want to do it, then I'm really happy for you. Always love reading about coming out stories especially from people who grew up in bigoted families/communities.

 

Some of my queer friends had very different experiences ranging from total acceptance to "let’s pretend it doesn't exist" to actually being disowned though.

I completely agree re: coming out. It feels so unfair to me that queer people have to formally announce these things, especially in cases where they could be disowned or harmed.

[Communion]

2 hours ago, LikeATattoo said:

Once again, that’s not what I said. I said that you’d be hard-pressed to find a Muslim MP in the UK whose views on queer people actually reflected those of the majority Muslim population

The Muslim population *WHERE*? This is the issue and where you're either, at best, using your personal grievances towards Islam as political praxis, or at worst knowingly promoting racialized paranoia and bigotry.

 

This is what you posted:

Quote

Oh for crying out loud, most of those Muslim MPs are pro-LGBT equality because they have to be in order to get anywhere lol

This line you keep pushing that progressive Muslims are only progressive as a product of living within the West denies people their agency and falls into dog whistles about the West "civilizing" others. Why couldn't it be that many Muslims are progressive and thus want to move to progressive places like London?

 

It is completely offensive and nonsensical to claim that most London Muslims are not progressive by choice but by political opportunity or social pressure. That's the literal implication of your post. 

 

And when you routinely make these accusations against and only against Muslims, it becomes racialized because... where are these so called "values inherent to the West" when:

• "Western values" don't stop white English conservatives from hating LGBT people? The UK is literally dubbed "TERF Island" and it's not because of Muslims!
• "Western values" don't stop countless conservatives of color in the UK + Europe from hating LGBT people?
• "Western values" don't stop countries like Poland, Hungary, or all of Eastern Europe from systematically oppressing gay people despite the percentage of Muslims in these countries being less than 1%.

And these offensive retorts you fall into show you're acting out not on reality but personal grievance.

 

You'll respond - like you did before - with "oh, who cares Muslims in THAT country are supposedly progressive, they will never represent Muslims in [country 5000 miles away] because [insert dog whistle]". Why should they have to? Again, people who are even sympathetic to you are at odds with your essentializing.

 

If Western society was so culturally at odds with *every single Muslim in the world*, why would any of them *want* to move to any European country? How come many Muslim communities in Europe are more progressive on LGBT people than your average Polish or Hungarian national? If living in the West made everyone progressive, how do so many migrants not from the West find themselves to the left of different European nationals? You're falling into "civilizing" rhetoric without even realizing it.

 

And when confronted about this, you again do the whataboutism of "be serious - would a gay person rather live in Poland or [insert random country that might not even reflect the ethnic background of most Muslims in said country being referenced]???". You have literally co-opted the rhetoric of the European far-right.

 

In your desire to somehow "protect queer people from Islam," you have found yourself downplaying the inherent violence and queerphobia found in the neo-nazi ideology at root in much of Europe and have co-opted their language. "You're calling [insert European country]'s conservatives homophobic for hating groomers? In [Muslim country], they'd throw you off a roof." Congratulations. This is the end point of your personal grievances.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Communion

[A.R.L]

3 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said:

Not even remotely what I argued. Christianity hasn't even evolved either. It's still just as oppressive and violent. It's just not the dominating force in governing that it was even two decades ago, and has lost some of its influence and edge as people have secularized more. Countries that are under constant duress, facing coups and illegal invasions constantly while under the thumb of Western intelligence agencies and militaries, do not have the ability to secularize and often resort to seeking authoritarian demagogues that promise them safety and security from America's christofascist thugs.  

 

And that matters HOW? You're just full of non sequiturs and irrelevant arguments aren't you?  

 

The point is, "Good Christian people" like Obama, Joe Biden, and Clinton imposed their will on another country's population and left them far worse off than they were under a literal DICTATOR. "Good Christian people" like Bush, Cheney, Colin Powell/Condoleezza Rice did the same when they began their decades-long bombing campaigns in Afghanistan as they tore the country apart looking for Osama Bin Laden, only to fail and have him be found by the next administration NOT EVEN IN THAT COUNTRY. Neoconservative christofascists like them have been continuously destabilizing the world as a whole since the end of WWII. And you're surprised that the Muslim world doesn't take kindly to the West invading them and overthrowing their governments to bolster America's global hegemony? PLEASE.  

1- There was a same sex marriage in a church here in my country. I dare you to give me one example of that with a mosque.. 

 

2- Christians being secular thanks to the freedom of expression, something that islamic countries have failed to achieve since like 1400 years ago, because of the same religious text that still influences people's minds and that's what I was talking about here before.

 

3- Full of non sequiturs and irrelevant?! thank you for describing yourself .. I mean you even brought politics and the Lybian war to the subject, what else? Bringing in politics and politicians like Bush, Hillary and Obama whom I'm sure they don't even believe in god even if I were to see them praying inside church one day, now tell us what is the real religious dudes, who apply islamic rulings in their country, what have they done for humanity or even for their own people? What would they do for the world if they had the power?
 

I’m curious as to what haibatullah who applies 100% sharia law or even a less restrictive muslim leader who doesn't even allow lgbt flag would do for me as a gay person? Enlighten us, sis

Edited May 15, 2023 by A.R.L