discussion Muslim extremists intimidate and chase out LGBT students at a high school in Belgium

[Headlock]

The way @Communion continually cites data, numbers, and facts to prove his arguments in here and is wiping the floor with these people, only to be ignored continuously by the right-wing reactionaries who keep quoting each other “thank you! “ and having no-counter arguments other than ~I do not see it~ 

[Headlock]

I know there are a large amount of ATRLers from Europe and shouldn’t be surprised by the underlying racism/xenophobia there given the recent threads on blackface, but good god some of the posts in here, and people co-signing them 

[Trent W]

This is basically hate speech

 

Forget about the fact they are muslims, if a person is from another country and it’s a menace to the citizens of that place they should be deported or locked up. Period.

 

Their religion is irrelevant just straight up punish them.

[State of Grace.]

3 hours ago, LikeATattoo said:

1. I don’t believe in tone-policing the concerns being voiced by oppressed people about their (in this case would-be) oppressors. Ask yourself, if you watch the news tonight and you see that a neo-Nazi just shot up a(nother) black communal space (a church, a supermarket, wherever), are you going to hop onto Twitter and scold black people who are expressing outrage at the incident simply because some of their responses read extreme to you? Or are you going to accept and respect that those people are lashing out due to devastation, fear, paranoia, and exhaustion?

 

For the record, I wasn’t calling for the expulsion of Muslims from the West, let alone categorising every Muslim person in the world as bad. What I was doing was defending the collective right of queer people to be mistrusting and resentful of a religion that has demonised them since its inception. People need to be allowed to express their outrage without being tone-policed. I personally didn’t see anyone being outright bigoted about Islam, although our definitions of anti-Islam bigotry probably differ, so…well.

 

2/4. My greater point is that non-homophobic Muslims existing doesn’t negate the overwhelming majority of Muslims not, in fact, being that way.

 

3. All of my queer Muslim friends seem to go through hell. I’d never ostracise them, though. I’m a theist myself and understand the difficulty of balancing spirituality with queerness.

 

5. Obviously the deportation/travel ban rhetoric is jarring, but I’m not going to chastise any queer person for being terrified by the thought of Islam being even further spread than it already is.

 

6. The “division” here is entirely the fault of Muslims like the ones in the OP. No one gets to dictate or shame queer people’s reactions to an entire religion demonising them for no justifiable reason.

7. The percentage of Muslims who do accept queerness (on a global scale) is so egregiously low that it doesn’t make sense to centre their feelings here at all. I’m not trying to be callous here, but it really doesn’t make sense.

I'm sorry but I simply do not think it's "tone-policing" when I say that people have the right to express their fear and criticize Islam without being bigots themselves. Being resentful of Islam shouldn't be an excuse to categorize every Muslim person in the world/the ones immigrating to their country as a potential threat (or terrorist in other cases) or give you a green light to push the mass expulsion/travel ban narrative. If your "reactions" are calling for bigotry against an entire group of people based on the actions of certain individuals, then you should also be called out in my opinion. So...I guess we'll agree to disagree on this one.

 

I did get the sentiment from your posts that you are not calling for the deportation of Muslims like some foolish clowns here, but I really don't think what you're doing is productive either. I understand where it's coming from, especially with the recent rise of homophobia/transphobia again on a global scale (I'm legit already dreading pride month here ), but "queer people being scared of Islam" conversations always escalate quickly into thinly veiled racism masked as faux concern for "the future of Europe!" and LGBT rights as if brown immigrants are all the same and are the only threat to their beautiful and peaceful countries. What we should do instead is call for accountability/punishment whenever something like this happens without feeding the "North Africans are the troublemakers in Europe and should all be deported" right-wing rhetoric and racism that immigrants have to go through there (even ex-Muslims such as many of my friends there).

Edited May 14, 2023 by State of Grace.

[Communion]

31 minutes ago, Headlock said:

The way @Communion continually cites data, numbers, and facts to prove his arguments in here and is wiping the floor with these people, only to be ignored continuously by the right-wing reactionaries who keep quoting each other “thank you! “ and having no-counter arguments other than ~I do not see it~ 

Thank you that someone else notices it.  The constant insistence of "I'm not advocating for mass deportations" but then a complete rejection of any solution proposed that is not just agreeing that "all Muslims are inherently conservative" and that to recognize how European countries that ghettoize and disenfranchise Muslim refugees who are already unwilling to abandon a home *that they didn't want to leave* only will further fuel homophobia. 

[Headlock]

10 minutes ago, State of Grace. said:

"queer people being scared of Islam" conversations always escalate quickly into thinly veiled racism masked as faux concern for "the future of Europe!" and LGBT rights as if brown immigrants are all the same and are the only threat to their beautiful and peaceful countries.

It’s also absolute nonsense given the extreme rise of the far-right in Europe, which consist of white non-Muslim Europeans, who are incredibly anti-LGBT. Like ma’am, the call is coming from inside the house, y’all are “destroying the European way of life” all on your own 

[Headlock]

24 minutes ago, Trent W said:

This is basically hate speech

 

Forget about the fact they are muslims, if a person is from another country and it’s a menace to the citizens of that place they should be deported or locked up. Period.

 

Their religion is irrelevant just straight up punish them.

*glances at thread*

Seems like a lot of people think the ONLY thing that is relevant is their religion.

[LikeATattoo]

2 hours ago, Communion said:

Again, no one believes you think this…

And by “no one”, you mean you?

 

 

Why would it be so hard to believe that I’m dubious of Muslim people accepting queer people in large numbers when the overwhelming majority of them do not, in fact, accept queer people? That’s literally the most sensible stance that anyone—queer or not—could take on the issue.

 

2 hours ago, Communion said:

What could motivate such a hatred of Muslims that you feel the need to double down on being wrong?

And this is exactly the problem with these discussions. Refusal to tolerate Islamic homophobia is characterised as hatred of Muslims, instead of accurately depicted as hatred of Muslims’ hatred of queer people. It’s akin to white people screaming about anti-whiteness in the face of black people confronting white people’s anti-blackness.

 

”If I just say that they’re doing to me what I’m actually doing to them, that’ll throw people off my trail! Teehee!”

 

Please. You should ask Muslim extremists what could motivate such a blistering hatred of queer people/women/non-believers that they feel compelled to spread their extremism beyond their homelands and across the globe.

 

2 hours ago, Communion said:

You can't claim that liberal Muslims don't actually support LGBT people…

I never even implied that liberal Muslims are universally faking their support of queer people. I doubted the number of them who legitimately support queer people behind closed doors and within Muslim spaces, not just general society. There is a glaring difference between supporting queer people’s collective right to exist in the general sense, and supporting queer people’s collective right to exist around and within Islam. And you’re ignoring that difference in avoidance of having to be honest with the rest of the class.

 

2 hours ago, Communion said:

Which is why you think something like this is 'saying something', but you're not making sense to most people:

"Yes, Fins are accepting of LGBTQ people, but would those Fins be accepting of gays.. if instead of being born Finnish, they were instead born and raised as ethnic Poles??? Hmm makes you THINK about Europeans as a whole, RIGHT???!"

…Babe, answer honestly:

 

Would these liberal Muslim Americans be as accepting (if at all) of queer people if they had been born and raised in Muslim countries? And not socialised to integrate themselves into a society where violent homophobia was generally discouraged? Where are these liberal voices of reason in Muslim countries? Hell, where are they outside of the the US? Peel back the snark, surrender the obfuscation attempts, and really dig deep before answering these questions. You might surprise yourself.

 

 

2 hours ago, Communion said:

Given the existence of far-right Europeans, I think we can use your logic to assume "European-ness" is not just an identity but an innate belief system that supports the brutalization of LGBT people and that this belief is innate to ALL Europeans, even those who "supposedly claim to accept LGBT people".

Where do you honestly believe that an openly gay person would be in more danger; most parts of the Middle East, or most parts of Europe? Again, answer with brutal, linear honesty.

 

2 hours ago, Communion said:

Like what are you confused on? There is no extremism within the US amongst moderate and liberal Muslims within the way that you claim is omnipresent in Europe.

Show me where I asserted the omnipresence of Islamic extremism in Europe.

 

 

And why are you framing the violent homophobia of Muslims in Europe as the fault of Europeans for failing Muslims where the US supposedly succeeded (lol)?

And if you’re saying that Muslims in Europe are more likely to be violently homophobic because they’re less likely to integrate with the surrounding society, are you not then inadvertently admitting that non-Westernised Islam is inherently homophobic (which would justify queer people’s collective right to be terrified of Islamic growth in the West)?

 

2 hours ago, Communion said:

You claim you don't endorse the response of "deport anyone brown!!" by conservative Europeans and yet routinely reject the reality of where Muslim Americans have successfully integrated into American cultural norms.

I don’t deny the existence of queer-accepting Muslims at all. I know many. My stance throughout this thread has been unwavering and be divided into two parts:

 

1. Queer people have every reason to be timorous about the prospect of Islamic growth in the West, considering the fact that Muslims who don’t hate queer people are a statistical blip. I don’t care about Muslim immigration, but I’m not going to shush the people who very justifiably do care, nor do use the point in going to bat for a religion of people who, by and large, would sooner see me tortured and killed than respect my right to exist in the world (let alone anywhere near them).

 

2. Queer people should be allowed to voice their gripes with Islam and it’s followers freely, considering the immeasurable damage that it has done to them. (This also applies to queer relationships with Christianity.) perhaps more crucially, queer people should be allowed to voice these gripes within queer spaces. Because really, if criticising Islamic homophobia is quietened on f****** ATRL of all places, then what hope is there?

 

2 hours ago, Communion said:

You claim that Muslims in Europe at large are by far more conservative than American Muslims…

Beloved, I didn’t make this claim. You did.

 

 

2 hours ago, Communion said:

What incentive would Muslim migrants have to liberalize if you are arguing that they fundamentally cannot because by nature all Muslims are conservative?

I’m not arguing that they fundamentally cannot liberalise, I’m expressing a healthy amount of doubt that as many of them have done so as is being claimed.

 

2 hours ago, Communion said:

In reality, if we actually did explore the differences between Muslims in the US and Muslims in Europe, the only thing one would find is that Europe likely has a largely portion of those who are directly displaced by war. And that, of course displaced people are going to be more opposed to assimilation, since they didn't want to leave their home in the first place!

What relevance does that have to queer anxiety over the spreading of Islam in the West?

 

 

Anyway, I’m gonna post these questions again seeing as how they weren’t rhetorical and you’ve yet to answer them:

 

- Muslims in the US (again, not even relevant to the OP) are halfway accepting of queerness. We love that! Now talk to me about views held on queerness by the other 99.8% of the total Muslim population. The Muslim American population is merely 0.175% of the total Muslim population, after all.

 

- Are you a queer person?

 

- Are you a Muslim?

Edited May 14, 2023 by LikeATattoo

[Communion]

8 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

when the overwhelming majority of them 

The majority of Muslim Americans, when polled, agree that LGBT Americans should be treated as equal under law. In response to this, you then claimed there were 0 queer Muslims in the US, when the link you shared showed that there were as many as 300k self-identifying queer Muslims. 

 

What logic led you to not be able to read a study correctly?

 

8 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

Refusal to tolerate Islamic homophobia 

What Islamic homophobia? You're claiming Muslims who support LGBT people are not being honest when polled? 

 

Quote

There is a glaring difference between supporting queer people’s collective right to exist in the general sense, and supporting queer people’s collective right to exist around and within Islam

Your evidence for this claim is - again - a poll you read wrong and which proved you wrong. 

 

"Liberal Muslims may accept gays but will not accept them into Islam. That's why no Muslims will openly identify as gay. See this poll."

*poll shows 8% of Muslims surveyed identifying as non-straight*

 

???? 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Communion

[LikeATattoo]

19 minutes ago, State of Grace. said:

I'm sorry but I simply do not think it's "tone-policing" when I say that people have the right to express their fear and criticize Islam without being bigots themselves.

That’s fair. I just don’t think that wanting Muslims (or religious people in general) who threaten the safety of queer people to essentially “go away”, constitutes bigotry. Essentially, people are saying that if Islamic extremism has to exist, it at least shouldn’t be given the opportunity to spread.

 

My thing is, if Muslim extremists are allowed to call for the harming of queer people, then at the very least, queer people should be allowed to call for the prevention of those Muslim extremists being around them. Like…that’s the absolute barest of minimums. I highly doubt that anyone on here wants the deportation/travel banning of Muslims who don’t actively intend to harm queer people. Even if those Muslims also see queer people as less than.

 

29 minutes ago, State of Grace. said:

I did get the sentiment from your posts that you are not calling for the deportation of Muslims like some foolish clowns here, but I really don't think what you're doing is productive either. I understand where it's coming from, especially with the recent rise of homophobia/transphobia again on a global scale (I'm legit already dreading pride month here ), but "queer people being scared of Islam" conversations always escalate quickly into thinly veiled racism masked as faux concern for "the future of Europe!" and LGBT rights as if brown immigrants are all the same and are the only threat to their beautiful and peaceful countries. What we should do instead is call for accountability/punishment whenever something like this happens without feeding the "North Africans are the troublemakers in Europe and should all be deported" right-wing rhetoric and racism that immigrants have to go through there (even ex-Muslims such as many of my friends there).

I mean, I’m a POC so I’m definitely not approaching this situation from the “brown Muslims bad” angle — most Muslims would look damn near white next to me lol. There’s definitely an element of that in white criticisms of Muslims, but I’d be lying if I said that I could see any of that in this thread.

[LikeATattoo]

14 minutes ago, Communion said:

.

So you’re just…not going to address any of my key points or answer any of my questions? Like, not a single one???

 

[Bethenny Frankel]

what a horrid experience, those students should all be suspended

[spiritboy]

People should have every right to practice their religion but when it comes to human rights and freedom, things change. If they can't and won't accept the existence of LGBTQ people and will attack them verbally or physically, they should be sent back to their countries.

[LikeATattoo]

1 hour ago, Headlock said:

The way @Communion continually cites data, numbers, and facts to prove his arguments in here and is wiping the floor with these people, only to be ignored continuously by the right-wing reactionaries who keep quoting each other “thank you! “ and having no-counter arguments other than ~I do not see it~ 

I mean, their latest responses to me have pretty much ignored every point that I’ve made, so much so that I’ve had to repeatedly C+P them to newer posts multiple times, only for them to still be ignored. 

[AvadaKedavra]

Europe-Northamerica are doomed with this increase in religious people and religious extremism. Were gonna have the dark ages again in the future.

Maybe things are cyclical  The future for LGBTI communities look bleak. Were gonna be banned and killed

Lets make our Latinoamerica the new cool place for the LGBTI once USA-Europe are destroyed 
Youre all invited here.
 

Edited May 14, 2023 by AvadaKedavra

[Communion]

9 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

So you’re just…not going to address any of my key points or answer any of my questions? Like, not a single one???

We can talk about any topic you want once you address that your claim that "acceptance of gays by Muslims is not the same as accepting them into Islam" was made on evidence that ended up being wrong; as well as addressing how your claim that "no Muslims will openly identify as gay" reconciles with the poll you linked that shows 8% of Muslims identifying as non-straight? 

 

So again - how can anyone trust you to be justified in your "hesitancy to believe Muslims are becoming more liberal" when you directly spread misinformation and your entire claim for this hesitancy is disproven with polls that show LGBTQ identification within Muslims is largely in-line with non-Muslim Americans?? 

 

Every post you've made has had to see you then move to a different goal post. Why?

 

No one has said these individual boys shouldn't be punished by the school. The simple argument is that you cannot essentialize all Muslims as any specific way. This has sent you into a downward spiral for which you continue to make arguments you cannot defend. 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Communion

[AvadaKedavra]

12 hours ago, YellowRibbon said:

This is why I'm kinda glad that there's a whole ocean in-between them and South America... At least in my country, people would jump at their throats. Even if homophobia is still prevalent in several groups of the society, even they would side with their compatriots instead of siding with a culture with completely opposite values than the ones we have here.

If Northamerica and Europe fall to Extremism i think sooner or later they will export that to us.
We depend on them  This is one of the reasons why is important to enjoy products from those countries but to keep our ideas and views apart from them

[Samsara]

12 hours ago, SapphireSky said:

Islam is probably the worst thing to ever happen on this earth. Rip Europe 

 

12 hours ago, Delirious said:

Religion*

 

12 hours ago, SapphireSky said:

Islam* 

Communism & Nazism by far surpass the death toll in all religious wars combined. Two of the deadliest wars in history, WW1&2, had nothing to do with religion. The worst genocides and suppression of liberties happened under officially atheist states. Religion continues to exist today because it’s relatively harmless compared to these secularist ideologies.

[LikeATattoo]

41 minutes ago, Communion said:

We can talk about any topic you want once you address that your claim that "acceptance of gays by Muslims is not the same as accepting them into Islam" was made on evidence that ended up being wrong;

Girl it wasn’t maliciously fabricated or even misinterpreted, I remembered reading the headline a while ago, skimmed the article, and misspoke after the fact LOL.

 

Let. It. Go. 

 

41 minutes ago, Communion said:

So again - how can anyone trust you to be justified in your "hesitancy to believe Muslims are becoming more liberal"

1. No queer person who harbours mistrust of Islam is unjustified in doing so. BFFR.

 

2. Muslims in the US (0.175% of the total Muslim population) becoming more liberal =/= Muslims as a whole becoming more liberal. It’s really true, what people say about Americans needing to centre themselves in everything lol.

 

41 minutes ago, Communion said:

Every post you've made has had to see you then move to a different goal post. Why?

This is absolute BS. My stance has been consistent and unwavering this whole damn time. You’ve projected several arguments onto me that I never made (presumably—and hopefully—because you got your lines crossed with other people that you were arguing with), but that’s as far as my apparent moving of goalposts goes.

 

41 minutes ago, Communion said:

No one has said these individual boys shouldn't be punished by the school. The simple argument is that you cannot essentialize all Muslims as any specific way. This has sent you into a downward spiral for which you continue to make arguments you cannot defend. 

1. No one believes that all 2.5 billion Muslims (across the multiple different branches of Islam, at that) are the same on an individual level, but they all adhere to one book so it’s kinda easy to generalise their views. Same with Christians and the Bible.

 

Sorry, but religion makes generalisations extremely easy in actuality.

 

2. If my arguments are so indefensible, then respond to them?

Edited May 15, 2023 by LikeATattoo

[Delirious]

1 minute ago, Samsara said:

 

 

Communism & Nazism by far surpass the death toll in all religious wars combined. Two of the deadliest wars in history, WW1&2, had nothing to do with religion. The worst genocides and suppression of liberties happened under officially atheist states. Religion continues to exist today because it’s relatively harmless compared to these secularist ideologies.

" During the beginning of his political life, Hitler publicly expressed favorable opinions towards Christianity.^[3][4] Some historians describe his later posture as being "anti-Christian".^[5][6] He also criticized atheism.^[7]"

 

 

Hitler was born to a practicing Catholic mother, Klara Hitler, and was baptized in the Roman Catholic Church; his father, Alois Hitler, was a free-thinker and skeptical of the Catholic Church.^[8][9] In 1904, he was confirmed at the Roman Catholic Cathedral in Linz, Austria, where the family lived.^[10]

[Headlock]

37 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

I mean, their latest responses to me have pretty much ignored every point that I’ve made, so much so that I’ve had to repeatedly C+P them to newer posts multiple times, only for them to still be ignored. 

@Communion has literally cited an article YOU posted to debunk one of your arguments, and you are saying he is ignoring all of your points??  

[Headlock]

2 minutes ago, Delirious said:

" During the beginning of his political life, Hitler publicly expressed favorable opinions towards Christianity.^[3][4] Some historians describe his later posture as being "anti-Christian".^[5][6] He also criticized atheism.^[7]"

 

 

Hitler was born to a practicing Catholic mother, Klara Hitler, and was baptized in the Roman Catholic Church; his father, Alois Hitler, was a free-thinker and skeptical of the Catholic Church.^[8][9] In 1904, he was confirmed at the Roman Catholic Cathedral in Linz, Austria, where the family lived.^[10]

I was wondering when Godwin’s law would rear its head in here 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Headlock

[Headlock]

6 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

 

 

1. No one believes that all 2.5 billion Muslims (across the multiple different branches of Islam, at that) are the same, but they all follow one book so it’s kinda easy to generalise their views.

X1000000000

[LikeATattoo]

5 minutes ago, Headlock said:

@Communion has literally cited an article YOU posted to debunk one of your arguments, and you are saying he is ignoring all of your points??  

Read our conversation from start to finish and tell me who’s ducking whose arguments, sis. In fact, you can just read our interactions on this page alone. 

[Samsara]

1 minute ago, Delirious said:

" During the beginning of his political life, Hitler publicly expressed favorable opinions towards Christianity.^[3][4] Some historians describe his later posture as being "anti-Christian".^[5][6] He also criticized atheism.^[7]"

 

 

Hitler was born to a practicing Catholic mother, Klara Hitler, and was baptized in the Roman Catholic Church; his father, Alois Hitler, was a free-thinker and skeptical of the Catholic Church.^[8][9] In 1904, he was confirmed at the Roman Catholic Cathedral in Linz, Austria, where the family lived.^[10]

He was the same as the atheist Mussolini who was also a fascist leader. They had to pander to Christians in order to be democratically-elected in Christian-majority nations. But they both ultimately turned out to be anti-Christian. Also you’re ignoring the fact that communism and atheism are inextricably intertwined.