discussion Muslim extremists intimidate and chase out LGBT students at a high school in Belgium

[Communion]

41 minutes ago, Chemist said:

Huh? pretty much everyone in this forum is against neo nazis protesting drag events and literally everyone agrees that the current anti-drag anti-trans movement is destroying America

So we should then block migration into America from countries where nazism is still present, like all of Central & Eastern Europe, to protect our diverse and pro-racial equality way of life, yes? I can say the presence of European migrants risks the death of American values?

 

That's the difference in these conversations. One tries to claim they're criticizing an ideology often to covertly disenfranchise entire groups by whom society racializes on the aspect of their faith.

 

One group is essentialized and the other is not. Do you not understand what that means? 

 

It's clear as day when a group of students do something homophobic that they should be punished for and people suggest that then "this is what happens when you let people like them into our way of life" but then seemingly that isn't said for others who find themselves at odds with cultural norms

 

Why is the presence of homophobic 2nd-generation migrants deadly to the way of life of Europe but not the presence of racist migrants?

Edited May 14, 2023 by Communion

[Communion]

1 hour ago, XAMJ said:

this will also happen in the US...... there's been several board meetings of muslims and christians ganging up on LGBT students.....

a mess

We've already been through this far-right propaganda:

"Homophobic Muslims are teaming up with Republicans!! This is the end of liberalism!! The left will end itself!" 

 

Reality: The pro-LGBT Muslim woman representing the most Muslim district won by 40+ points.

 

Oddly enough, @Delirious never had to apologize for posting far-right misinformation that ended up wrong.

 

Based on the logic of the OP and the incendiary responses that they wanted to generate, Muslims like Rashida Tlaib should be expelled from America and considered homophobic because the existence of homophobic Muslims like the teens in the first post. Odd how - again - these conversations that essentialize across groups of people does not occur within Europeans in relation to racism. 

 

Obviously the teenage boys should be suspended, but not because they are Muslim (and thus the essentialized belief all Muslims as people are inherently homophobic), but because they did an action that was homophobic. 

[TheCheshireCat]

51 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

1. See, I don’t consider queer people in Western countries being weary of Muslim immigration to the West, to be xenophobic at all. People are rightfully scared of what the future holds and would prefer that homophobia not be re-normalised in society after decades of progress. It also irritates me to think that I, a queer non-white person, can’t be critical of Islam without being conflated with right-wingers.

 

2. I have an honest question that I feel the need to stress is not being asked in bad faith; exactly how common do you believe that non-homophobic Muslims are? Because I see a lot of concern over the impact that the actions of the more extremist Muslims are going to have on the peaceful Muslims, but are the peaceful Muslims even accepting of queerness? Simply because they’re not openly terrorising queer people in the streets doesn’t mean that their views on queer people are any less archaic and regressive.

 

3. For clarity; I support and empathise with queer Muslims. I’m also keenly aware of the fact that they’re the people most vulnerable to Islamic homophobia. I’d assumed that that stance would be obvious. 
 

4. It’s great that Muslims who are willing to defend their queer friends in Islamic spaces exist, but exactly how commonplace are those people?

 

5. It’s pretty insulting that people here with negative views on Islam and the real world consequences of its teachings, are being dismissed as bigots with a score to settle. The hostility that you’re alluding to is fuelled by very justified fear of being subjected to evilness for no good reason. No queer person owes Islam (or any of the Abrahamic religions for that matter) a modicum of grace.
 

6. My problem with the calls to “separate the belief system from the person” is the amount of wiggle room that said approach grants to people like the ones in the OP. It enables not only the dodging of accountability, but the continuation of the behaviours that spawned the problem in the first place. For the same reasons that I have no interest in separating person and doctrine in the case of racist white Evangelicals, I have no interest in being nice to Muslims who have not openly declared their unreserved respect for queer human rights.

[Delirious]

55 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

1. See, I don’t consider queer people in Western countries being weary of Muslim immigration to the West, to be xenophobic at all. People are rightfully scared of what the future holds and would prefer that homophobia not be re-normalised in society after decades of progress. It also irritates me to think that I, a queer non-white person, can’t be critical of Islam without being conflated with right-wingers.

 

2. I have an honest question that I feel the need to stress is not being asked in bad faith; exactly how common do you believe that non-homophobic Muslims are? Because I see a lot of concern over the impact that the actions of the more extremist Muslims are going to have on the peaceful Muslims, but are the peaceful Muslims even accepting of queerness? Simply because they’re not openly terrorising queer people in the streets doesn’t mean that their views on queer people are any less archaic and regressive.

 

3. For clarity; I support and empathise with queer Muslims. I’m also keenly aware of the fact that they’re the people most vulnerable to Islamic homophobia. I’d assumed that that stance would be obvious. 
 

4. It’s great that Muslims who are willing to defend their queer friends in Islamic spaces exist, but exactly how commonplace are those people?

 

5. It’s pretty insulting that people here with negative views on Islam and the real world consequences of its teachings, are being dismissed as bigots with a score to settle. The hostility that you’re alluding to is fuelled by very justified fear of being subjected to evilness for no good reason. No queer person owes Islam (or any of the Abrahamic religions for that matter) a modicum of grace.
 

6. My problem with the calls to “separate the belief system from the person” is the amount of wiggle room that said approach grants to people like the ones in the OP. It enables not only the dodging of accountability, but the continuation of the behaviours that spawned the problem in the first place. For the same reasons that I have no interest in separating person and doctrine in the case of racist white Evangelicals, I have no interest in being nice to Muslims who have not openly declared their unreserved respect for queer human rights.

ATE 

[Communion]

6 hours ago, LikeATattoo said:

 and recognise the reality of a situation for what it is?

 

1 hour ago, LikeATattoo said:

But are the peaceful Muslims even accepting of queerness?

 

A majority apparently are.  and that such doubled in the span of 10 years would debunk the claims that younger generations of Muslims are becoming more conservative. 

 

So if your only response will be, since I have a hunch it will be, that American Muslims are different than European Muslims, I have two things:

1) Notice how quickly suddenly your "generalizations work!" mind set crumbles.

2) If we are doing generalizations, why not ask why the US approach of diversity and integration has succeeded in comparison to the European model of forced assimilation that has clearly failed?

 

Why do the more pro-diversity policies in America produce objectively more progressive and less reactionary migrant communities than what the anti-diversity, assimilationist and ghettoizing policies across Europe do to Muslim migrants?

Edited May 14, 2023 by Communion

[Delirious]

29 minutes ago, Communion said:

 

 

A majority apparently are.  and that such doubled in the span of 10 years would debunk the claims that younger generations of Muslims are becoming more conservative. 

 

So if your only response will be, since I have a hunch it will be, that American Muslims are different than European Muslims, I have two things:

1) Notice how quickly suddenly your "generalizations work!" mind set crumbles.

2) If we are doing generalizations, why not ask why the US approach of diversity and integration has succeeded in comparison to the European model of forced assimilation that has clearly failed?

 

Why do the more pro-diversity policies in America produce objectively more progressive and less reactionary migrant communities than what the anti-diversity, assimilationist and ghettoizing policies across Europe do to Muslim migrants?

Cope.

 

 

[State of Grace.]

1 hour ago, LikeATattoo said:

1. See, I don’t consider queer people in Western countries being weary of Muslim immigration to the West, to be xenophobic at all. People are rightfully scared of what the future holds and would prefer that homophobia not be re-normalised in society after decades of progress. It also irritates me to think that I, a queer non-white person, can’t be critical of Islam without being conflated with right-wingers.

 

2. I have an honest question that I feel the need to stress is not being asked in bad faith; exactly how common do you believe that non-homophobic Muslims are? Because I see a lot of concern over the impact that the actions of the more extremist Muslims are going to have on the peaceful Muslims, but are the peaceful Muslims even accepting of queerness? Simply because they’re not openly terrorising queer people in the streets doesn’t mean that their views on queer people are any less archaic and regressive.

 

3. For clarity; I support and empathise with queer Muslims. I’m also keenly aware of the fact that they’re the people most vulnerable to Islamic homophobia. I’d assumed that that stance would be obvious. 
 

4. It’s great that Muslims who are willing to defend their queer friends in Islamic spaces exist, but exactly how commonplace are those people?

 

5. It’s pretty insulting that people here with negative views on Islam and the real world consequences of its teachings, are being dismissed as bigots with a score to settle. The hostility that you’re alluding to is fuelled by very justified fear of being subjected to evilness for no good reason. No queer person owes Islam (or any of the Abrahamic religions for that matter) a modicum of grace.
 

6. My problem with the calls to “separate the belief system from the person” is the amount of wiggle room that said approach grants to people like the ones in the OP. It enables not only the dodging of accountability, but the continuation of the behaviours that spawned the problem in the first place. For the same reasons that I have no interest in separating person and doctrine in the case of racist white Evangelicals, I have no interest in being nice to Muslims who have not openly declared their unreserved respect for queer human rights.

1. I was saying that we should criticize Islam without behaving like right-wingers and calling for Muslims to be sent back to their countries though. People can rightfully be scared of bigotry and the future of the LGBTQ+ community without being bigots themselves. The assumption that all immigrants from Muslim countries are a threat to Western countries and shouldn't be allowed in is textbook xenophobia.

 

2 & 4. They might not represent the majority of Muslims in the world obviously, but Muslims who are accepting of queerness are still common. See Communion's posts above. 

 

3. I'm glad that you are actually aware of that. Unfortunately for many people on this site, queer Muslims are still "delusional, self-hating, in denial, etc". I can only hope that some of the so-called woke and tolerant gay men here do better when it comes to accepting fellow queer people with different beliefs/backgrounds.

 

5. Once again, I did not say that we shouldn't have negative views on Islam or that we have to respect the religion itself. Islam is a belief system and criticism of Islam is, like criticism of any other belief system, completely valid. You would never even catch me saying good things about it.  My issue is with people using examples of individual bigotry like the one in the OP to spew hatred and their "Muslims are gonna be the downfall of Europe and we need to stop them! Send them back! Don't let them in!" propaganda.

 

6. So what do we do then though? Essentialize all Muslims instead of punishing the students/holding criminals fully accountable when they do something? I really don't think it's productive on both sides and only just divides, and further sidelines queer Muslims/those who are accepting and willing to integrate and makes them unwelcome. I’m not saying discussions shouldn’t occur or action shouldn’t happen, but the belief that all Muslims are inherently homophobic and a threat to our community isn't right. And to be quite honest, I don't see it happening when members of other demographics do such things.

[Delirious]

How lovely. The comments are even better 

 

 

[Communion]

1 minute ago, Delirious said:

 

 

Random reddit user: "We as Muslims don't attend pride parades or wave LGBT flags"

 

THINK AGAIN! COPE! 

 

[LikeATattoo]

2 hours ago, Communion said:

 

 

A majority apparently are.  and that such doubled in the span of 10 years would debunk the claims that younger generations of Muslims are becoming more conservative. 

 

So if your only response will be, since I have a hunch it will be, that American Muslims are different than European Muslims, I have two things:

1) Notice how quickly suddenly your "generalizations work!" mind set crumbles.

2) If we are doing generalizations, why not ask why the US approach of diversity and integration has succeeded in comparison to the European model of forced assimilation that has clearly failed?

 

Why do more pro-diversity policies in America produce more progressive and less reactionary migrant communities than the anti-diversity, assimilationist and ghettoizing policies across Europe do to Muslim migrants?

I mean, it’s awesome that the percentage of Muslims in the US who believe that gays should have the right to exist has doubled in the last decade from one quarter to one scintillating half! We love that!
 

Some questions;

 

Do you actually put stock in that study? Like, do you sincerely believe that a queer person could walk into a standard mosque in the US, announce who they are, and be unreservedly accepted as part of the surrounding community?

 

Do you think that any of the Muslims polled in that study would express the same sentiment of queer acceptance if they were situated in a Muslim country?

 

(FYI, within the context of the study that you provided, there is a monumental difference between “accepted in society” (i.e allowed to exist in the world) and “accepted in Islamic spaces”.)

 

In this study (more recent than the one that you provided btw), the number of people in a polling of over 800 Muslims Americans who felt comfortable identifying solely as gay was 0:

 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/05/28/us/lgbt-muslims-pride-progress/index.html

Edited May 14, 2023 by LikeATattoo

[Riverbank]

24 minutes ago, Delirious said:

How lovely. The comments are even better 

 

 

Well a good portion of these people would consider honor killings to be more acceptable than homosexuality, so it doesn't surprise me at all, unfortunately.

 

[LikeATattoo]

14 minutes ago, State of Grace. said:

1. I was saying that we should criticize Islam without behaving like right-wingers and calling for Muslims to be sent back to their countries though. People can rightfully be scared of bigotry and the future of the LGBTQ+ community without being bigots themselves. The assumption that all immigrants from Muslim countries are a threat to Western countries and shouldn't be allowed in is textbook xenophobia.

 

2 & 4. They might not represent the majority of Muslims in the world obviously, but Muslims who are accepting of queerness are still common. See Communion's posts above. 

 

3. I'm glad that you are actually aware of that. Unfortunately for many people on this site, queer Muslims are still "delusional, self-hating, in denial, etc". I can only hope that some of the so-called woke and tolerant gay men here do better when it comes to accepting fellow queer people with different beliefs/backgrounds.

 

5. Once again, I did not say that we shouldn't have negative views on Islam or that we have to respect the religion itself. Islam is a belief system and criticism of Islam is, like criticism of any other belief system, completely valid. You would never even catch me saying good things about it.  My issue is with people using examples of individual bigotry like the one in the OP to spew hatred and their "Muslims are gonna be the downfall of Europe and we need to stop them! Send them back! Don't let them in!" propaganda.

 

6. So what do we do then though? Essentialize all Muslims instead of punishing the students/holding criminals fully accountable when they do something? I really don't think it's productive on both sides and only just divides, and further sidelines queer Muslims/those who are accepting and willing to integrate and makes them unwelcome. I’m not saying discussions shouldn’t occur or action shouldn’t happen, but the belief that all Muslims are inherently homophobic and a threat to our community isn't right. And to be quite honest, I don't see it happening when members of other demographics do such things.

1. I don’t believe in tone-policing the concerns being voiced by oppressed people about their (in this case would-be) oppressors. Ask yourself, if you watch the news tonight and you see that a neo-Nazi just shot up a(nother) black communal space (a church, a supermarket, wherever), are you going to hop onto Twitter and scold black people who are expressing outrage at the incident simply because some of their responses read extreme to you? Or are you going to accept and respect that those people are lashing out due to devastation, fear, paranoia, and exhaustion?

 

For the record, I wasn’t calling for the expulsion of Muslims from the West, let alone categorising every Muslim person in the world as bad. What I was doing was defending the collective right of queer people to be mistrusting and resentful of a religion that has demonised them since its inception. People need to be allowed to express their outrage without being tone-policed. I personally didn’t see anyone being outright bigoted about Islam, although our definitions of anti-Islam bigotry probably differ, so…well.

 

2/4. My greater point is that non-homophobic Muslims existing doesn’t negate the overwhelming majority of Muslims not, in fact, being that way.

 

3. All of my queer Muslim friends seem to go through hell. I’d never ostracise them, though. I’m a theist myself and understand the difficulty of balancing spirituality with queerness.

 

5. Obviously the deportation/travel ban rhetoric is jarring, but I’m not going to chastise any queer person for being terrified by the thought of Islam being even further spread than it already is.

 

6. The “division” here is entirely the fault of Muslims like the ones in the OP. No one gets to dictate or shame queer people’s reactions to an entire religion demonising them for no justifiable reason.

7. The percentage of Muslims who do accept queerness (on a global scale) is so egregiously low that it doesn’t make sense to centre their feelings here at all. I’m not trying to be callous here, but it really doesn’t make sense.

[Communion]

3 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

to one scintillating half!

The number of Muslims who accept LGBT people in America is *largely in-line* with Americans at large.

 

Trying to shift goal posts from "would ANY Muslim accept gay people??" to "is it REALLY impressive if ONLY half of all Muslims in the US accept gay people??" is deeply unserious.

 

Of course it is noteworthy if Muslim Americans are not meaningfully any more homophobic than your average American, because such rhetoric like "Muslims pose a threat to our way of life" is then discredited.

 

The graph I shared with you compared Muslims & White Evangelicals, but the full study shows - again - that Muslim Americans are literally as accepting and pro-LGBT as your average Protestant. Muslims are largely liberal:

 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

any mosque in the US

This makes no sense - you literally link to an article showing the existence of gay friendly mosques in the US?

 

So... yes, they literally can? Or are you trying to use "any" to mean "all", which would be nonsensical.

 

Why would the burden of proof to "is it believable 52% of all Muslims accept gays?" be "would ALL mosques be accepting"? Most LGBT Christians can't go to countless churches within the US and be accepted.

 

I have to ask - are you American? I can tell from this line of questioning you're arguing from a likely non-American perspective and that you can't see that this specific flavor of the "pro-LGBT Muslims are not actual Muslims" argument usually pushed doesn't work in America where faith and religion can differ.

 

Quote

there is a monumental difference between “accepted in society” and “accepted in Islamic spaces”.)

Mosques - like Churches - are going to be older and more conservative. A majority of Muslim Americans are younger than 35 yet only a third of those Muslims describe themselves as "regularly attending mosque":

 

Christians who don't regularly attend church are still Christians, thus Muslims who don't regularly attend mosque are still Muslim in the same way. This failure to understand religion as a personal identification - what we often describe as "faith" - that is separate from some kind of formal organized system with specific rules tells me you don't have much experience with or understanding how religion functions in America.

 

43 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

3.5 million Muslims in the US, and 0% of them are queer???

I beg you to actually read the articles you link to beyond the headlines.

 

The article you posted says the study found 8% of Muslim Americans identified queer:

Quote

Of the 804 American Muslims polled... Four percent identified as bisexual, 2% said they were "something else" and another 2% refused to answer the question.

 

Asked about the 0% statistic, Mogahed offered a nuanced interpretation. If 92% of American Muslims identified as straight, she said, then the remaining 8% may be lesbian or gay, even if they're reluctant say so.

[LikeATattoo]

3 hours ago, Gaia said:

This is part of the problem I have where I don’t want to be islamophobic but I can’t help but wonder if the “nice” Muslims who are respectful here (US) would be as respectful if they weren’t in a country that exhibited a high level of Islamophobia where they know their lives would turn to hell if they turned to more radical beliefs. 
 

Would they be as neutral or supportive if they were in a predominantly Islamic country? Being respectful because you know the radical bigotry of your religion won’t be tolerated, isn’t the same as being respectful because you simply want to be. That would only be the case if you’d act the exact same way no matter what country you are in. And I highly doubt that’s the case. 
 

It’s the same how many Christians are nice and tolerable in Liberal cities/countries but still toxic and homophobic in very conservative areas. Often times, when it comes to religion you were will as radical as you’re allowed to be. 

Don’t like to generalize but it’s hard when you know how certain topics are taught in the religion. Feels like you need to prove you’re not a bigot instead of the other way around. 

 

Exactly!

 

The “My Muslim friends like me and my queerness!” brigade need to interrogate the societal circumstances behind those friends’ acceptance of them. People here really need to ask themselves, “Would they tolerate me anywhere and everywhere in the world? Even parts of it where Islam is the chief power?”.

 

If they honestly believe that their Muslim friends would accept them regardless of geography and cultural surroundings, then I’m happy for them. I just think that it’s worth asking themselves the question first. All of my Christian/Muslim friends (and I have many of each — I’m actually a theist myself) are people who I genuinely believe would support and defend me anywhere and everywhere, but it’s been difficult moulding my social circle in accordance with that requirement.

[LikeATattoo]

32 minutes ago, Communion said:

The number of Muslims who accept LGBT people in America is *largely in-line* with Americans at large.

 

Trying to shift goal posts from "would ANY Muslim accept gay people??" to "is it REALLY impressive if ONLY half of all Muslims in the US accept gay people??" is deeply unserious.

 

Of course it is noteworthy if Muslim Americans are not meaningfully any more homophobic than your average American, because such rhetoric like "Muslims pose a threat to our way of life" is then discredited.

 

The graph I shared with you compared Muslims & White Evangelicals, but the full study shows - again - that Muslim Americans are literally as accepting and pro-LGBT as your average Protestant. Muslims are largely liberal:

 

 

 

 

This makes no sense - you literally link to an article showing the existence of gay friendly mosques in the US?

 

So... yes, they literally can? Or are you trying to use "any" to mean "all", which would be nonsensical.

 

Why would the burden of proof to "is it believable 52% of all Muslims accept gays?" be "would ALL mosques be accepting"? Most LGBT Christians can't go to countless churches within the US and be accepted.

 

I have to ask - are you American? I can tell from this line of questioning you're arguing from a likely non-American perspective and that you can't see that this specific flavor of the "pro-LGBT Muslims are not actual Muslims" argument usually pushed doesn't work in America where faith and religion can differ.

 

Mosques - like Churches - are going to be older and more conservative. A majority of Muslim Americans are younger than 35 yet only a third of those Muslims describe themselves as "regularly attending mosque":

 

Christians who don't regularly attend church are still Christians, thus Muslims who don't regularly attend mosque are still Muslim in the same way. This failure to understand religion as a personal identification - what we often describe as "faith" - that is separate from some kind of formal organized system with specific rules tells me you don't have much experience with or understanding how religion functions in America.

 

I beg you to actually read the articles you link to beyond the headlines.

 

The article you posted says the study found 8% of Muslim Americans identified queer:

1. It’s not unserious to be unmoved by the percentage of American Muslims who supposedly accept gay people LOL, especially when we have no idea what their responses would be if they were situated in a Muslim country and asked the same question. You might as well clap for Muslims who don’t assault queer people in the streets lol. I have no doubt that the doubling of Muslim American acceptance of homosexuality over the past 15+ years has something to do with younger, more progressive Muslims partaking in these polls.

 

2. Man, the number of mosques in the US that actually embrace queer people is so small that the existence of a small few really doesn’t mean a damn thing. Let’s be serious here.

 

3. Looks like neither of us properly read the study that I posted lol. The study that I posted indicated that 4% of the Muslims polled identified as queer. We can’t really put a label on the people who ticked “Something else” or “Prefer not to answer” because, well…we don’t know.

 

4. Why are we prioritising the US in a discussion about the behaviour of Muslims in Belgium/general Western Europe? How did the US of A even take centre stage here?

 

5. Just like churches are not the only Christian spaces, mosques aren’t the only Muslim spaces.

 

6. Let’s say, for argument’s sake, that European countries are in fact worse at helping to integrate their Muslim citizens with wider society (I actually don’t have an informed stance on this either way). Why should that be any queer person’s problem? Why is your response to Muslims in Europe being less accepting of queerness than Muslims in the US essentially to place the blame on Europe and not, you know, Islam? I mean, obviously, an embrace of diversity is more ideal than forced assimilation, but why is the onus on non-Muslims to make sure that Muslims don’t feel the need to attack queer people? Like, can you actually not see how badly that you’re infantilising Muslims as a whole right now?

 

7. Okay, so Muslims in the US (again, not even relevant to the OP) are halfway accepting of queerness. We love that! Now talk to me about the other 99.8% of the global Muslim population. And this time, try to do it without obfuscating.

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by LikeATattoo

[bliaz]

 

[Communion]

1 minute ago, LikeATattoo said:

Looks like neither of us properly read the study that I posted lol. The study that I posted indicated that 4% of the Muslims polled identified as queer. We can’t really put a label on the people who ticked “Something else” or “Prefer not to answer” because, well…we don’t know.

You're coming off as illiterate and you would be taken more seriously if you just opted to being wrong.

 

But I guess it's harder to actually look into what you claim than randomly bash Muslims.

"HOW COME THERE ARE ZERO GAY MUSLIMS IN THE US??"

 

Reality: Muslim & Jewish Americans are more likely to ID as queer than Catholics or Protestants:

 

Here's 2018's data and - oh look - gays! 

 

You can't go "HMMM WHY ARE WE *CENTERING* THE US???" after making grand statements like "IT IS LOGICAL TO FEAR MUSLIM MIGRATION INTO THE WEST!" (the US is a significant portion of the West) and then after trying - and failing - to go "BUT DO THOSE AMERICAN MUSLIMS ACTUALLY ACCEPT GAYS???"

 

America has shown how to integrate religious communities into being pro-LGBT. 

Why do you not want to learn from America to see how to better spread LGBT acceptance?

[LikeATattoo]

33 minutes ago, Communion said:

You're coming off as illiterate and you would be taken more seriously if you just opted to being wrong.

 

But I guess it's harder to actually look into what you claim than randomly bash Muslims.

"HOW COME THERE ARE ZERO GAY MUSLIMS IN THE US??"

 

Reality: Muslim & Jewish Americans are more likely to ID as queer than Catholics or Protestants:

 

Here's 2018's data and - oh look - gays! 

 

You can't go "HMMM WHY ARE WE *CENTERING* THE US???" after making grand statements like "IT IS LOGICAL TO FEAR MUSLIM MIGRATION INTO THE WEST!" (the US is a significant portion of the West) and then after trying - and failing - to go "BUT DO THOSE AMERICAN MUSLIMS ACTUALLY ACCEPT GAYS???"

 

America has shown how to integrate religious communities into being pro-LGBT. 

Why do you not want to learn from America to see how to better spread LGBT acceptance?

1. Nothing about this discussion reads more “wrong” than a queer person going to bat for a doctrine that despises them, but hey.

 

2. In what world are Muslims (barring the queer ones)—or really, Abrahamic religious people at large—entitled to grace from queer people in any capacity? LOL. Being honest about Islam and its relationship with queerness does not constitute the “bashing” of anyone.

 

3. How did my point about Muslim American acceptance of queer people fail? That 52% isn’t even wholly believable, has been presented in a decontextualised manner in the first place, and even if real, would shrink if the same people were polled in a country where Islam was the dominant power lol.

 

4. The US being part of the West =/= the US constituting the West. So I’ll ask again; how and why did a thread about an incident of Islamic homophobia in Belgium become a discussion about the the state of Muslim-queer relations in the US?

 

5. My point in this thread has always been that queer people in the West have every reason to be weary of Islamic growth in the West considering the fact that, for the most part, it is violently homophobic. Citing dubious stats regarding the acceptance of queerness in Muslim America (of all places lol) doesn’t invalidate people’s concerns. And no, this isn’t your cue to perform the usual whataboutism by asking me about white Evangelicals. I’m more than aware of (and vocal about) their awfulness, too.

 

6. I don’t understand why you’re avoiding the topic of Muslims in Muslim countries when this discussion, at its core, is about the spreading of Islam in the West (which would tend to happen via continued Muslim immigration).

 

7. Are you a Muslim?

 

I actually was curious as to what your thoughts were on these questions from my previous post, so I’m posing them to you again:

 

- Let’s say, for argument’s sake, that European countries are in fact worse at helping to integrate their Muslim citizens with wider society (I actually don’t have an informed stance on this either way). Why should that be any queer person’s problem? Why is your response to Muslims in Europe being less accepting of queerness than Muslims in the US essentially to place the blame on Europe and not, you know, Islam? I mean, obviously, an embrace of diversity is more ideal than forced assimilation, but why is the onus on non-Muslims to make sure that Muslims don’t feel the need to attack queer people? Like, can you actually not see how badly that you’re infantilising Muslims as a whole right now?

 

- Okay, so Muslims in the US (again, not even relevant to the OP) are halfway accepting of queerness. We love that! Now talk to me about the other 99.8% of the global Muslim population. And this time, try to do it without obfuscating.

Edited May 14, 2023 by LikeATattoo

[Riverbank]

23 minutes ago, Communion said:

You're coming off as illiterate and you would be taken more seriously if you just opted to being wrong.

 

But I guess it's harder to actually look into what you claim than randomly bash Muslims.

"HOW COME THERE ARE ZERO GAY MUSLIMS IN THE US??"

 

Reality: Muslim & Jewish Americans are more likely to ID as queer than Catholics or Protestants:

 

Here's 2018's data and - oh look - gays! 

 

You can't go "HMMM WHY ARE WE *CENTERING* THE US???" after making grand statements like "IT IS LOGICAL TO FEAR MUSLIM MIGRATION INTO THE WEST!" (the US is a significant portion of the West) and then after trying - and failing - to go "BUT DO THOSE AMERICAN MUSLIMS ACTUALLY ACCEPT GAYS???"

 

America has shown how to integrate religious communities into being pro-LGBT. 

Why do you not want to learn from America to see how to better spread LGBT acceptance?

You do realize that you can ethnically be a Jew and not subscribe to their religious beliefs at the same time, right?

 

You also do realize that it's less dangerous to identify as an ex-Christian/ex-Catholic and be completely non-affiliated with the community than it is to identify as an ex-Muslim? Especially when your Muslim relatives and surroundings happen to take religious stuff in the Quran like "kill all apostates" very seriously? Surely that's gotta count for something, right?

[Communion]

18 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

who supposedly accept gay people LOL

Again, no one believes you think this after embarrassing yourself after claiming 0 out of 3.5M Muslim Americans somehow identified as LGBT. You clearly only read the headline after furiously Googling for a defense. 

 

What could motivate such a hatred of Muslims that you feel the need to double down on being wrong?

 

You can't claim that liberal Muslims don't actually support LGBT people when their support for LGBT people is largely in-line with many Americans, let alone let's not get started on how most Europeans feel about queer people:

 

Which is why you think something like this is 'saying something', but you're not making sense to most people:

21 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

we have no idea what their responses would be if they were situated in a Muslim country

"Yes, Fins are accepting of LGBTQ people, but would those Fins be accepting of gays.. if instead of being born Finnish, they were instead born and raised as ethnic Poles??? Hmm makes you THINK about Europeans as a whole, RIGHT???!"

 

Given the existence of far-right Europeans, I think we can use your logic to assume "European-ness" is not just an identity but an innate belief system that supports the brutalization of LGBT people and that this belief is innate to ALL Europeans, even those who "supposedly claim to accept LGBT people".

 

Yes?

 

25 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

Man, the number of mosques in the US that actually embrace queer people is so small

"Hmm if Muslims accept gays, are there then pro-gay mosques?? I bet there isn't any! Answer that!"

"The link you shared shows there are."

"Those mosques don't matter and are irrelevant to the point I was trying to make!"

 

Sis, stay down. They already got you on the ropes. It's that volleyball gif. It's embarrassing. 

 

51 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

Why are we prioritising the US in a discussion about the behaviour of Muslims in Belgium

Because the US is succeeding where Europe is failing.

 

Like what are you confused on? There is no extremism within the US amongst moderate and liberal Muslims within the way that you claim is omnipresent in Europe.

 

So either:

• you understand religion is malleable and would want to know WHY American Muslims are more liberal and how the US got to that point (despite it being a very fair criticism that the US, and Europe, have terrorized Muslim nations and killed millions abroad)
• OR you actually think all Muslims are *innately* homophobic, that they will always be homophobic, that this cannot be changed, and that liberal Muslims are somehow just faking~ it. 

You claim you don't endorse the response of "deport anyone brown!!" by conservative Europeans and yet routinely reject the reality of where Muslim Americans have successfully integrated into American cultural norms.

 

You claim that Muslims in Europe at large are by far more conservative than American Muslims (who are also SECRETLY LYING!!!) would have anyone believe. What incentive would Muslim migrants have to liberalize if you are arguing that they fundamentally cannot because by nature all Muslims are conservative?

 

In reality, if we actually did explore the differences between Muslims in the US and Muslims in Europe, the only thing one would find is that Europe likely has a largely portion of those who are directly displaced by war. And that, of course displaced people are going to be more opposed to assimilation, since they didn't want to leave their home in the first place!  How many bombs have Belgium endorsed dropping on Muslim nations?

[Communion]

56 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

more “wrong” than a queer person going to bat for a doctrine that despises them, but hey

Oop - there it is!

 

You: "Muslims should be more liberal and learn to accept LGBTQ people."

Anyone with common sense: "Agreed, but also ostracizing and ghettoizing any minority group won't lead to cultural integration. It's not productive to call for mass expulsion or dehumanization. Look at how progressive Muslim Americans are."

You: "There can't be such a thing as progressive Muslims. Islam is an inherently anti-LGBT religion".

 

 

56 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

That 52% isn’t even wholly believable

"Of course I'm not going to believe a poll that shows the reality of a racialized group I hate and despise!"

 

 

56 minutes ago, LikeATattoo said:

So I’ll ask again; how and why did a thread about an incident of Islamic homophobia in Belgium

Because the US, where Muslims make-up a small religious community, is the only logical comparison for any country in Europe, where, again, Muslims never make up more than a small religious community.

 

Even during the refugee crisis in 2016, the vast majority of migration of Muslim refugees went to other countries within the Middle East and Africa.

 

When most European countries don't have Muslims making up more than 5% of their population, yes, it's going to be criticized that incendiary language that talks about "destruction" or "invasions" is inherently supremacist and essentialist. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Communion

[HANZ94]

5 hours ago, LikeATattoo said:

1. See, I don’t consider queer people in Western countries being weary of Muslim immigration to the West, to be xenophobic at all. People are rightfully scared of what the future holds and would prefer that homophobia not be re-normalised in society after decades of progress. It also irritates me to think that I, a queer non-white person, can’t be critical of Islam without being conflated with right-wingers.

 

2. I have an honest question that I feel the need to stress is not being asked in bad faith; exactly how commonplace do you believe that non-homophobic Muslims are? Because I see a lot of concern over the impact that the actions of the more extremist Muslims are going to have on the more peaceful Muslims, but are the peaceful Muslims even accepting of queerness? Simply because they’re not openly terrorising queer people in the streets doesn’t mean that their views on queer people are any less archaic and regressive than those held by the extremists. This is analogous to people being perfectly classifiable as white supremacist even if they’re not burning crosses on black people’s front lawns. These things all have spectrums.

 

3. For clarity; I support and empathise with queer Muslims. I’m also keenly aware of the fact that they’re the people most vulnerable to Islamic homophobia. I’d assumed that that stance would be obvious.

 

4. It’s hugely insulting that people here with negative views on Islam and the real world consequences of its teachings, are being dismissed as bigots with a so-called “score to settle”. The hostility that you’re alluding to is fuelled by very justified fear of being subjected to evilness for no good reason. No queer person owes Islam (or any of the Abrahamic religions, for that matter) a modicum of grace.
 

5. My problem with the calls to “separate the belief system from the person” is the amount of wiggle room that said approach grants to people like the ones in the OP. It enables not only the dodging of accountability, but the continuation of the behaviours that spawned the problem in the first place. For the same reasons that I have no interest in separating person and doctrine in the case of racist white Evangelicals, I have no interest in being nice to Muslims who have not openly declared their unreserved respect for queer human rights.

 

6. No queer person could immigrate to a Muslim country, announce their queerness, and expect to be treated with anything resembling decency. At best they would be ostracised; at worst? Well…I don’t need to tell you the rest. If a queer person isn’t able to move to any Muslim country and simply exist in peace, then at the very least, no Muslim person should be able to move to a non-Muslim country and spread ideologies that harm innocent people.

THANK YOU 

[Pacify Him]

Gross. They need to run them out of that country for the safety of our LGBT sisters

[HANZ94]

9 hours ago, Miss Show Business said:

THANK you.

 

I'm sick of people defending Islam when it comes to radicalists. Yes, I think all religion is bad, but there is a HUGE difference between majority-Christian nations and majority-Muslim nations. The latter are almost always Islamic authoritarian theocracies that legalize human rights abuses and have horrible practices when it comes to women, LGBTQs, etc. And, YES, this comes EXPLICITLY from the Q'uran and Hadith's, EXACTLY like how the same laws were present in Christian theocracies in the middle ages and early modern period.

 

Christianity is at a completely different timeline than Islam. Islam, is quite literally, still stuck in the middle ages, and it NEEDS to be shamed and criticised until good people of Muslim faith start rising up for their freedom and choices (much like what we've been seeing in Iran.)

 

You can criticise a religion while also recognizing that even not all followers of said religion believe in things like the OP. But we also cannot ignore that behavior like this is directly derived from Islam and it's teachings.

Thank you too 

[A.R.L]

13 hours ago, Dephira said:

They’re perfectly well aware of LGBT people, they just hate them and want everyone in the country to comply with their minority views, through violence if necessary. At the rate things are going, right wing hellholes like Poland and Hungary will soon be physically safer spaces for LGBTQ, since the European left refuses to even acknowledge this extreme, violent conservatism

Violence begets violence, so maybe it's time for the Belgian police to use violence with these people, as this is their way of learning..

 

12 hours ago, TouchinFree said:

Sis how do you know THIS  because this is incredibly ACCURATE. Growing up in a Muslim community I've heard that crap so much 

Yes, it’s true, I've done research on islam and other abrahamic religions from various websites, forums, and former religious people that I know, and I don't hate these religions for nothing