discussion Muslim extremists intimidate and chase out LGBT students at a high school in Belgium

[Outlaws]

Send them back.

[katara]

A part of the issue is that northern european countries are too soft and spineless and would let anyone intimidate or undermine them. Shiet like this would never fly in Spain or Italy or Greece. These religious fools would be shut down in an instant and they KNOW this that's why they don't even try it there in the first place.

 

Northern europeans need to stand up and protect their way of life. And no I am not not talking about not letting immigrants from muslim countries in but they need to be more bold, strict and unimpeachable when it comes to integration like Spain for example. You either assimilate to the way of life of the host country or you get shut down.

[HardBambi]

2 hours ago, thetea said:

this. all of muslim people i've met have been so kind, welcoming and friendly. this isn't an accurate portrayal of the majority of muslim people. it's just the worst people of a certain group making the most noise and receiving the most media attention, which is the case for most contentious topics.

This is about the disgusting behaviour in the video we just watched. How else would you describe it or talk about it? Or would you rather not talk about it? 
 

[Bloodflowers.]

Far-right extremist Muslims are just as dangerous as every other far-right extremist groups. Hope Belgium can find a way to reduce radicalization and homophobia of Gen Z muslim students. Turkey and Albania are European muslim majority countries yet Gen Z there doesn't have that problem.

[Delirious]

52 minutes ago, thetea said:

that's not what i'm saying. you don't need to be so extreme in your stance on this. there are liberal muslims, it's just hard to do that when so many people younger and older are conservative. i'm not even muslim, but i feel that you judging an entire group of people is unjustified. islam as a whole needs to do a lot to catch up with more modern beliefs spewing hatred like this doesn't result in any meaningful change. 

how is it extreme or spewing hatred when it's a cold hard FACT that 90% of countries with death penalties for gay sex have majority muslim population?

 

Stop being so wishy washy

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_for_homosexuality

[State of Grace.]

2 hours ago, LikeATattoo said:

This thread…why do gays do this? I get that most queer people are left-leaning and as such, will discourage seemingly sweeping generalisations of other marginalised groups (Islam obviously being marginalised in the West), but at what point do you stand the hell up and recognise the reality of a situation for what it is?

 

There are really people in this thread shouting, “But what about white Evangelicals being awful too?”, as though that group of bigots isn’t even more called out for their awfulness than Muslims are lol.
 

None of the “open-minded” Muslims that y’all are waxing lyrical about in here are willing to defend people like you (even passively) in Islamic spaces. Most of them won’t even make the grand leap to defending y’all to their families.

 

Stop going to bat for people who subscribe to an ideology that demonises your very existence. Stop it. Please.

Here's the thing...we can totally recognize the reality of the situation without also resorting to xenophobia such as making sick generalizations, calling for new immigration laws, and posting "Go back to your country!" or "The future of Europe is in danger!" right-wing'd nonsense? That's what ATRLers do not get. And it's always the same **** in every. single. thread. (some of the replies in here are still pretty tame so far compared to many other threads in the Civics section)

 

I'm not even gonna bring up Evangelical Christians because that's a whole other topic imo. The school obviously has to suspend these fools/fight them and stand up for their LGBTQ+ students. I'm all for calling out the awful behavior of these religious people (in this case Muslim extremists) and rightfully condemning the atrocities being committed by Muslims against queer people, women, etc. I would love to have lengthy discussions about how Islam is still stuck in the middle ages, but sometimes it legit feels like I'm browsing 4chan because some members here are unable to have nuanced conversations about this topic without drawing nasty xenophobic or racist parallels to Muslims. The sad thing is that this will affect other immigrants from the same background who are actually willing to integrate or practicing Muslims who are only looking for a peaceful and better life abroad. 

 

I grew up and still live in a Muslim-majority country as a non-religious gay man. I have an incredible amount of anger/rage/resentment against Islam and many Muslims as well, so I'm not waiting for Western ATRLers to school me on that and the emotional trauma it causes to us. But I also do have several Muslim friends who have stood up and "defended people like me" before, unlike what you claim. Not to mention the amount of queer Muslims that exist and are constantly alienated and rejected by both of their communities.

 

Most members on this forum have no idea what these people have to go through and simply love bashing entire communities just to settle scores, then cry about "whataboutism" when they get called out. Lets use our brains and learn to separate the religion from all of its followers then call a spade, a spade?

Edited May 14, 2023 by State of Grace.

[Riverbank]

6 hours ago, BOOMBAYAH said:

It’s funny how during the Qatar World Cup all the Muslims where saying “you need to respect their culture” in defence of their anti-gay laws, but when it comes to secularism and Western human rights they don’t gaf about respecting gay people.  There are plenty of wealthy Islamic countries around the world, I never got why they didn’t just leave to go there if they can’t reconcile living in a non-religious/Christian society. 

It's not even about culture. Being gay isn't a costume that you choose to wear and parade around. This is about basic human rights  It's funny how people invest that much time and energy into defending their backwards mentality to the point where we have to reduce their human rights violations as mere "customs and traditions". Especially when those religious fanatics would have certain people defending them here dead in a heartbeat  

[Gui Blackout]

I didn't expect it to be fellow students/youth  terrifying

[Mr. Blue_Shirt]

4 hours ago, Communion said:

How do threads become about if criticisms of all Muslims are done in good faith if not from people deciding to use instances of individual bigotry to essentialize all Muslims? What benefit comes from language like "Muslims represent the destruction of modern-day Europe"?

This!

 

Honestly it's so tiring that people, especially in this website, always pick and choose what extremism is. Like, everytime a group of extremist that happen to be muslims, they always using "It's the downfall of modern western society", but i've never seen them doing the same thing when it comes to right-wing extremism, even nazis 

 

They always mask themselves "well, all religious are bad" thingy but these people obviously never treat muslim conservatism & conservative christianity the same even though both of these are religious conservatism, and it affect & hold back against progress, change, improvement no matter where you live. But ofc ATRL never see that nuanced since this website still has people defending blackface because "Europeans don't know that it is bad"

 

When neo-nazi groups protested against drag event in Ohio last month, i didn't see any comments in ATRL saying "These nazis represent the destruction of modern-day America" but i'm sure it would be different reaction when the groups are muslims

[Riverbank]

4 hours ago, Lovesong said:

Who advocated for destruction of Palestinian people? Direct quote in the studio, please!

 

I said Jews shoun’t be attacked on the streets based on fact of being a jew? Random people eating on the streets, and people who are accused of being Jewish? Blamed for anything and everything Israel does, all while at every Palestinian rally there are chants of “Kill the jews, rape their mothers, rape their daughters”. You (and others) will never care about any of that.

 

You are the one who are supremacist. You are the one who defends any POC and Muslim crime, all while ignoring the fact that all LGBT youth, including Muslim youth are under death threat by MUSLIM community (this being true in the countries like Russia too!). All while ingnoring the fact that only suprematist states in the world are Arab states , where all the minorities who did not defended themselves (like Christians in Lebanon) end up being dead of forced into Islam.

 

That besides of other fun staff like honor killings, clan courts, marital murders.

 

You are biggest whataboutist on this site.

[Aaron]

2 hours ago, LikeATattoo said:

This thread…why do gays do this? I get that most queer people are left-leaning and as such, will discourage seemingly sweeping generalisations of other marginalised groups (Islam obviously being marginalised in the West). That being said, at what point do you stand the hell up and recognise the reality of a situation for what it is?

 

There are really people in this thread shouting, “But what about white Evangelicals being awful too?”, as though that group of bigots isn’t even more called out for their awfulness than Muslims are lol.
 

By and large, these “kind, warm, open-minded” Muslims that y’all are waxing lyrical about in here, only make nice with y’all because they’re constricted by the societal rules of the West. The grand majority of your Muslim friends are not willing to defend people like you (even passively) in Islamic spaces. Most of them won’t even make the grand leap to defending you to their families.

 

I’d rather urinate kidney stones for a month than defend followers of a doctrine that demonises my very existence. I can’t fathom being so hopelessly devoid of integrity and basic self-awareness. Y’all are disgraceful beyond redemption.

All logical reasoning and critical thinking goes out the window in favor of appearing as inclusive as possible and scoring liberal brownie points 

[Shelter]

You have to just let them do what they want because you’ll be called racist. 

[thetea]

1 hour ago, HardBambi said:

This is about the disgusting behaviour in the video we just watched. How else would you describe it or talk about it? Or would you rather not talk about it? 
 

that's not what i'm talking about. if you want to be unnecessarily hateful and dense then that's your choice. the people in this thread are acting as if all muslims are like this, and it's really harmful and potentially offensive to muslims who are more liberal in their beliefs. if you read my other posts, you'd understand that i don't agree with this and my personal opinion on this ordeal, but you purposefully choose to selectively quote what I said and get outraged over that. please learn to read comprehensively and control your emotions. 

23 minutes ago, Mr. Blue_Shirt said:

This!

 

Honestly it's so tiring that people, especially in this website, always pick and choose what extremism is. Like, everytime a group of extremist that happen to be muslims, they always using "It's the downfall of modern western society", but i've never seen them doing the same thing when it comes to right-wing extremism, even nazis 

 

They always mask themselves "well, all religious are bad" thingy but these people obviously never treat muslim conservatism & conservative christianity the same even though both of these are religious conservatism, and it affect & hold back against progress, change, improvement no matter where you live. But ofc ATRL never see that nuanced since this website still has people defending blackface because "Europeans don't know that it is bad"

 

When neo-nazi groups protested against drag event in Ohio last month, i didn't see any comments in ATRL saying "These nazis represent the destruction of modern-day America" but i'm sure it would be different reaction when the groups are muslims

exactly what i was saying. but as usual on this site, they pick apart your words and selectively choose things quote things you say and get outraged over out of context sentences.

1 hour ago, Delirious said:

how is it extreme or spewing hatred when it's a cold hard FACT that 90% of countries with death penalties for gay sex have majority muslim population?

 

Stop being so wishy washy

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_for_homosexuality

or alternatively, you could read comprehensively and see that there is another side of what you're saying. generalising and branding an entire population of people as homophobic, sexist and "stuck in the middle ages" is harmful. would you feel the same if someone generalised gay people based on the actions of a few? it's not your place to be so freely hating and demonising someone's religion based on a few people's actions. i do agree that change does need to happen in islam, but changes this large take many years / decades / centuries to happen. 

[thetea]

1 hour ago, katara said:

A part of the issue is that northern european countries are too soft and spineless and would let anyone intimidate or undermine them. Shiet like this would never fly in Spain or Italy or Greece. These religious fools would be shut down in an instant and they KNOW this that's why they don't even try it there in the first place.

 

Northern europeans need to stand up and protect their way of life. And no I am not not talking about not letting immigrants from muslim countries in but they need to be more bold, strict and unimpeachable when it comes to integration like Spain for example. You either assimilate to the way of life of the host country or you get shut down.

this is a logical and reasonable response. it's a great idea. if you choose to move countries, then I feel like you should make an attempt to assimilate and follow that countries cultural norms. spreading your culture is great, but not in a negative way like what was shown in the post. 

[gm4567]

Most LGBT friendly muslims

[magazine]

just lock them up, what's so difficult about it? 

[Souvenir]

10 hours ago, brooklyndaddy said:

Religion is vile 

 

[Gaia]

7 hours ago, BOOMBAYAH said:

The statement I made was not intended to question anyone's legal rights or entitlement to their birth country. It was an observation about personal choice and religious alignment. As someone who grew up Muslim and immigrated, I've noticed many Muslims prioritise their ethnicity and religion over their Western nationality - which is fine. All I’m saying is, If someone disagrees with the fundamentals of Western society, they could consider moving to a culturally aligned and economically wealthy country. This allows them to find an environment where their values and beliefs better align with the societal norms.

This is common sense. Religious people just don’t like to exercise common sense and prefer to stay around people they hate with ideologies they don’t agree with because their entire being is fueled by hatred. Some of those teens probably got more enjoyment from that homophobic display than any praising of their god. 
 

Fortunately I’ve met many reasonable and nice Muslims in the US. I’m sure they know if they displayed such radical beliefs in a country that already has a high level of Islamophobia they’d be run out of the country. Not sure if that’s the reason, but I’m sure it weighs on them to not be too radical in the US at least. 

[Specter]

These are... Students? 

 

Suspensions. Immediately. And even more punitive measures, if necessary. 

[Gaia]

3 hours ago, LikeATattoo said:

This thread…why do gays do this? I get that most queer people are left-leaning and as such, will discourage seemingly sweeping generalisations of other marginalised groups (Islam obviously being marginalised in the West). That being said, at what point do you stand the hell up and recognise the reality of a situation for what it is?

 

There are really people in this thread shouting, “But what about white Evangelicals being awful too?”, as though that group of bigots isn’t even more called out for their awfulness than Muslims are lol.
 

By and large, these “kind, warm, open-minded” Muslims that y’all are waxing lyrical about in here, only make nice with y’all because they’re constricted by the societal rules of the West. The grand majority of your Muslim friends are not willing to defend people like you (even passively) in Islamic spaces. Most of them won’t even make the grand leap to defending you to their families.

 

I’d rather urinate kidney stones for a month than defend followers of a doctrine that demonises my very existence. I can’t fathom being so hopelessly devoid of integrity and basic self-awareness. Y’all are disgraceful beyond redemption.

This is part of the problem I have where I don’t want to be islamophobic but I can’t help but wonder if the “nice” Muslims who are respectful here (US) would be as respectful if they weren’t in a country that exhibited a high level of Islamophobia where they know their lives would turn to hell if they turned to more radical beliefs. 
 

Would they be as neutral or supportive if they were in a predominantly Islamic country? Being respectful because you know the radical bigotry of your religion won’t be tolerated, isn’t the same as being respectful because you simply want to be. That would only be the case if you’d act the exact same way no matter what country you are in. And I highly doubt that’s the case. 
 

It’s the same how many Christians are nice and tolerable in Liberal cities/countries but still toxic and homophobic in very conservative areas. Often times, when it comes to religion you were will as radical as you’re allowed to be. 

Don’t like to generalize but it’s hard when you know how certain topics are taught in the religion. Feels like you need to prove you’re not a bigot instead of the other way around. 

 

[XAMJ]

this will also happen in the US...... there's been several board meetings of muslims and christians ganging up on LGBT students.....

a mess

[Chemist]

1 hour ago, Mr. Blue_Shirt said:

 

When neo-nazi groups protested against drag event in Ohio last month, i didn't see any comments in ATRL saying "These nazis represent the destruction of modern-day America" but i'm sure it would be different reaction when the groups are muslims

Huh? pretty much everyone in this forum is against neo nazis protesting drag events and literally everyone agrees that the current anti-drag anti-trans movement is destroying America

[LikeATattoo]

3 hours ago, State of Grace. said:

Here's the thing...we can totally recognize the reality of the situation without also resorting to xenophobia such as making sick generalizations, calling for new immigration laws, and posting "Go back to your country!" or "The future of Europe is in danger!" right-wing'd nonsense? That's what ATRLers do not get. And it's always the same **** in every. single. thread. (some of the replies in here are still pretty tame so far compared to many other threads in the Civics section)

 

I'm not even gonna bring up Evangelical Christians because that's a whole other topic imo. The school obviously has to suspend these fools/fight them and stand up for their LGBTQ+ students. I'm all for calling out the awful behavior of these religious people (in this case Muslim extremists) and rightfully condemning the atrocities being committed by Muslims against queer people, women, etc. I would love to have lengthy discussions about how Islam is still stuck in the middle ages, but sometimes it legit feels like I'm browsing 4chan because some members here are unable to have nuanced conversations about this topic without drawing nasty xenophobic or racist parallels to Muslims. The sad thing is that this will affect other immigrants from the same background who are actually willing to integrate or practicing Muslims who are only looking for a peaceful and better life abroad. 

 

I grew up and still live in a Muslim-majority country as a non-religious gay man. I have an incredible amount of anger/rage/resentment against Islam and many Muslims as well, so I'm not waiting for Western ATRLers to school me on that and the emotional trauma it causes to us. But I also do have several Muslim friends who have stood up and "defended people like me" before, unlike what you claim. Not to mention the amount of queer Muslims that exist and are constantly alienated and rejected by both of their communities.

 

Most members on this forum have no idea what these people have to go through and simply love bashing entire communities just to settle scores, then cry about "whataboutism" when they get called out. Let’s use our brains and learn to separate the religion from all of its followers then call a spade, a spade?

1. See, I don’t consider queer people in Western countries being weary of Muslim immigration to the West, to be xenophobic at all. People are rightfully scared of what the future holds and would prefer that homophobia not be re-normalised in society after decades of progress. It also irritates me to think that I, a queer non-white person, can’t be critical of Islam without being conflated with right-wingers.

 

2. I have an honest question that I feel the need to stress is not being asked in bad faith; exactly how commonplace do you believe that non-homophobic Muslims are? Because I see a lot of concern over the impact that the actions of the more extremist Muslims are going to have on the more peaceful Muslims, but are the peaceful Muslims even accepting of queerness? Simply because they’re not openly terrorising queer people in the streets doesn’t mean that their views on queer people are any less archaic and regressive than those held by the extremists. This is analogous to people being perfectly classifiable as white supremacist even if they’re not burning crosses on black people’s front lawns. These things all have spectrums.

 

3. For clarity; I support and empathise with queer Muslims. I’m also keenly aware of the fact that they’re the people most vulnerable to Islamic homophobia. I’d assumed that that stance would be obvious.

 

4. It’s hugely insulting that people here with negative views on Islam and the real world consequences of its teachings, are being dismissed as bigots with a so-called “score to settle”. The hostility that you’re alluding to is fuelled by very justified fear of being subjected to evilness for no good reason. No queer person owes Islam (or any of the Abrahamic religions, for that matter) a modicum of grace.
 

5. My problem with the calls to “separate the belief system from the person” is the amount of wiggle room that said approach grants to people like the ones in the OP. It enables not only the dodging of accountability, but the continuation of the behaviours that spawned the problem in the first place. For the same reasons that I have no interest in separating person and doctrine in the case of racist white Evangelicals, I have no interest in being nice to Muslims who have not openly declared their unreserved respect for queer human rights.

 

6. No queer person could immigrate to a Muslim country, announce their queerness, and expect to be treated with anything resembling decency. At best they would be ostracised; at worst? Well…I don’t need to tell you the rest. If a queer person isn’t able to move to any Muslim country and simply exist in peace, then at the very least, no Muslim person should be able to move to a non-Muslim country and spread ideologies that harm innocent people.

Edited May 14, 2023 by LikeATattoo

[Jjang]

6 hours ago, Lovesong said:

Who advocated for destruction of Palestinian people? Direct quote in the studio, please!

 

I said Jews shoun’t be attacked on the streets based on fact of being a jew? Random people eating on the streets, and people who are accused of being Jewish? Blamed for anything and everything Israel does, all while at every Palestinian rally there are chants of “Kill the jews, rape their mothers, rape their daughters”. You (and others) will never care about any of that.

oh puh-lease. 

 

Israel literally funds an annual “death to Arabs” march in Jerusalem 

 

anyway - @State of Grace. @Communion ate & agreed! 

[arceus]

Didn't the left vote for this kind of integration?