base talk Polish pop girl performs as “Nelly” in Blackface, judges love it!

[The Next Day]

38 minutes ago, Blankspace2010 said:

Who said that? Why are you generalising the topic. I’m specifically talking about black face and its ties to American history. Poland doesn’t have this history with black face. Y’all are really trying to be purposely obtuse about this. Blackface is absolutely associated with Americas history of white supremacy brain washing and propaganda. I don’t think this is right but Eastern Europe doesn’t associate offensiveness with this type of costuming as America does. America needs to be held accountable for its disgusting history of utilising black face to demean black people, spread false propaganda of black people to push their white supremacy agenda. This hasn’t developed the same way in other cultures or countries. It’s hard to look at this objectively but if you cannot, that’s fine. It’s at least respectable that you are fighting for the right side despite being purposely ignorant on this specific matter. 

Short answer: It's easy for the white majority to say something isn't racist. So whether white Europeans consider something racist is not the priority. Intention doesn't matter.

 

Long answer: According to you, a POC shouldn't be offended by this but if it was a German show they should be? Because Germany has a long dark history of enslaving Black people and the country has a history of blackface. And I'm not saying a POC has to be be offended by blackface. I'm just puzzled because I don't see the difference of what is shown. The intention is not even that different: Do you think the German who does blackface goes on stage thinking "I wanna be racist today"? The German who does blackface thinks blackface is not a big deal. The German and Polish show both think that blackface is not a big deal. Both do the exact same thing and yet one of them should be seen as not offensive? How is that "objective"? 

 

Of course you could say intention matters, I think that's your main argument. If the Polish woman does blackface without a racist intention, then it isn't racist. And she can't have a racist intention because blackface isn't labelled as racist in Polish culture. But then you would have to argue that every German who does blackface has a racist intention or else there wouldn't be a difference. But if blackface is deeply rooted in German culture, wouldn't that make it normal to German people? I think most Germans who do blackface do it because they think it's normal, not because they hate POC. And yet, they're doing something offensive and the Polish people don't?

 

[Material Girl]

1 minute ago, Blankspace2010 said:

Sorry sis, but this thread has a healthy discussion re: social norms and differences between American history with racism and their retributionary amendments to social norms that black people deserve and have fought for. The same social route has not taken place in Poland and we can’t simply state that this whole country and culture is outrightly and directly racist and when it didn’t experience the same social development with race as America due to its own history of colonialism and to be more specific - they do not have a social or racially abusive relationship with blackface. 
 

As stated previously in this thread - black face is attributed directly to American history and not to Poland. To ask for the people there to react the same when they do not have the same generational trauma or lived experiences is absolutely ignorant. To ask the mods to ban people in this thread for expressing concern re: condemning a full country of people racists due to black faces awful history with America is downright wrong. I can’t see any racism in this thread - observational intelligence and objective ness that goes beyond the reactionary learned behaviour of todays western culture. 

saying "polish people don't know better so they can't be racist" doesn't magically make something not racist

[Blankspace2010]

1 minute ago, The Next Day said:

Short answer: It's easy for the white majority to say something isn't racist. So whether white Europeans consider something racist is not the priority. Intention doesn't matter.

 

Long answer: According to you, a POC shouldn't be offended by this but if it was a German show they should be? Because Germany has a long dark history of enslaving Black people and the country has a history of blackface. And I'm not saying a POC has to be be offended by blackface. I'm just puzzled because I don't see the difference of what is shown. The intention is not even that different: Do you think the German who does blackface goes on stage thinking "I wanna be racist today"? The German who does blackface thinks blackface is not a big deal. The German and Polish show both think that blackface is not a big deal. Both do the exact same thing and yet one of them should be seen as not offensive? How is that "objective"? 

 

Of course you could say intention matters, I think that's your main argument. If the Polish woman does blackface without a racist intention, then it isn't racist. And she can't have a racist intention because blackface isn't labelled as racist in Polish culture. But then you would have to argue that every German who does blackface has a racist intention or else there wouldn't be a difference. But if blackface is deeply rooted in German culture, wouldn't that make it normal to German people? I think most Germans who do blackface do it because they think it's normal, not because they hate POC. And yet, they're doing something offensive and the Polish people don't?

 

Yes! Historical and social context matters. 

[sh0ckw4ves]

2 minutes ago, Blankspace2010 said:

Yes! Historical and social context matters. 

So what would your answer be to a Black Polish person who had 'never experienced generational trauma' be if they were offended by this? Your focus on driving this narrative that blackface can only be offensive by 'American standards' seems to forget all about the people that are at the centre of it. 

[Blankspace2010]

Just now, Material Girl said:

saying "polish people don't know better so they can't be racist" doesn't magically make something not racist

I’m saying that historically, black face doesn’t serve as a tool for pushing white supremacy in Poland. It does have that history in America. Polish people don’t associate or have a generational learning of black face being racist - in fact they don’t even think it is racist. What makes it racist is the intent of white Americans utilising it as a means of pushing white supremacy through minstrel shows of depicting black peoples as inferior. 
 

Am I saying black face is ok? Absolutely not. Black people can decide themselves what’s racist and not to them and their culture. But coming in and staying Poland is a racist country, they’re terrible, why can’t they be like America? Makes no sense. They’re not America, black face doesn’t have the same social context there and globalisation of cultures and peoples will occur before it’s eliminated completely.
 

This act may have been unintentionally offensive to some in Poland and may not have been offensive to others in Poland. Polish TV shows don’t think of African Americans in the US when creating their shows. It’s ok to acknowledge social context and allowing ourselves to breathe that this may not exactly mean or have the same damaging effect in Poland as in the US. 

 

Can Poland do better? Yes! Can we all do better? Yes! However, I’m not going to condemn Poland, the judges or its people. Now if this occurred on Americas Got Talent, I’d want WAR! Because it’s an act of violence against black communities and peoples in the USA. This is unintentional bad taste and ignorance in Poland. That’s all I’m saying. 

[Material Girl]

Just now, Blankspace2010 said:

I’m saying that historically, black face doesn’t serve as a tool for pushing white supremacy in Poland. It does have that history in America. Polish people don’t associate or have a generational learning of black face being racist - in fact they don’t even think it is racist. What makes it racist is the intent of white Americans utilising it as a means of pushing white supremacy through minstrel shows of depicting black peoples as inferior. 
 

Am I saying black face is ok? Absolutely not. Black people can decide themselves what’s racist and not to them and their culture. But coming in and staying Poland is a racist country, they’re terrible, why can’t they be like America? Makes no sense. They’re not America, black face doesn’t have the same social context there and globalisation of cultures and peoples will occur before it’s eliminated completely.
 

This act may have been unintentionally offensive to some in Poland and may not have been offensive to others in Poland. Polish TV shows don’t think of African Americans in the US when creating their shows. It’s ok to acknowledge social context and allowing ourselves to breathe that this may not exactly mean or have the same damaging effect in Poland as in the US. 

 

Can Poland do better? Yes! Can we all do better? Yes! However, I’m not going to condemn Poland, the judges or its people. Now if this occurred on Americas Got Talent, I’d want WAR! Because it’s an act of violence against black communities and peoples in the USA. This is unintentional bad taste and ignorance in Poland. That’s all I’m saying. 

you can write an essay but painting your skin black and performing as a caricature of a black person will still be racist no matter whatever "social context" you want to spin it

 

ignorance isn't an excuse, it just makes someone ignorant AND racist 

[Blankspace2010]

1 minute ago, sh0ckw4ves said:

So what would your answer be to a Black Polish person who had 'never experienced generational trauma' be if they were offended by this? Your focus on driving this narrative that blackface can only be offensive by 'American standards' seems to forget all about the people that are at the centre of it. 

No, it’s absolutely not only offensive by American standards. However, I’m staying Blackface is an act of war against American black people. That’s a fact. The same can’t be said for Poland. They don’t have that history with black face. Black people can absolutely be offended and have a right for change in Poland. My argument started re: the start of this thread that generalised a whole country of people due to Americans historical abuse of black face. It can be wrong and also not mean the same in Poland as it does in America, both at the same time. 

[Blankspace2010]

Just now, Material Girl said:

you can write an essay but painting your skin black and performing as a caricature of a black person will still be racist no matter whatever "social context" you want to spin it

 

ignorance isn't an excuse, it just makes someone ignorant AND racist 

Ok but I’ve explained myself well with examples, facts and articles describing my point. If all I get back is “but I don’t care, it’s the same everywhere. You’re dumb and racist” then I can’t reply. You can assume that every polish person has an agenda to push white supremacy through talent show programmes if you wish - if you don’t think that and think it’s an unnecessary ignorant mistake - then we both have the same opinion. If you think, like as it would mean in America, that black face would be an active attack and act of war on all black people and that’s what Poland is doing - then we disagree.
 

That’s all. We can’t have objective and educational conversations about cultural and historical differences between countries without users coming in saying “I don’t care - you should be banned racist”. That is not helpful at all, and allows for an echo chamber of loud angry idiots who have no knowledge or education on the matter. Just reactionary yelling and putting down. 

[Khal]

It's just extremely stupid how it is the same talking points/excuses that used to come up anytime this topic was discussed years ago that we're still having 5+ years later

[Josh]

someone actually defending blackface?

[illia]

1 hour ago, Phaunzie said:

Just disappointed, as a Katycat pls educate yourself. Anyways, disgusting however being it from polish, I am not surpised. The polish have a white nationalist and xenophobia problem, so it is expected. Don't get me started on a certain neo Nazi music Festival in a nearby certain country.

What festival are you talking abt?

[bad guy]

Not people defending blackface in here.

 

[Aquamarine]

3 minutes ago, Flomik said:

What festival are you talking abt?

I assume it's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asgardsrei_festival

[illia]

1 minute ago, Aquamarine said:

I assume it's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asgardsrei_festival

Omg why have I never heard of it? 

A mess, I agree

[Aquamarine]

Just now, Flomik said:

Omg why have I never heard of it? 

A mess, I agree

I'm into black metal and it's a big thing in its niche, unfortunately nazism is prevalent in the genre.  Yikes.

[blackoutbaby]

1 hour ago, Xder said:

so here black singer does whiteface? would you call that racism too? or are you just dragging white people

I keep seeing you using this “white face” argument in here. Reverse racism is not a thing. White skin has never and will never be used as to humiliate others. White skin has been the beauty standard in SEVERAL cultures. Educate yourself before you get on a forum and spout literal nonsense.

 

Mind you, Europe invented modern day racism. America has not even been a country for more than 400 years, and it was Europe that colonized it and brought over slavery. The amount of people acting like anti-black racism is an American concept when it was brought to America from Europe is insane.

 

Mods need to come in here and start handing out WPs, ‘cause some of y’all are racist af.

[halcyonday]

2 minutes ago, blackoutbaby said:

I keep seeing you using this “white face” argument in here. Reverse racism is not a thing. White skin has never and will never be used as to humiliate others. White skin has been the beauty standard in SEVERAL cultures. Educate yourself before you get on a forum and spout literal nonsense.

 

Mind you, Europe invented modern day racism. America has not even been a country for more than 400 years, and it was Europe that colonized it and brought over slavery. The amount of people acting like anti-black racism is an American concept when it was brought to America from Europe is insane.

 

Mods need to come in here and start handing out WPs, ‘cause some of y’all are racist af.

You made points with it being an European thing to begin with long time ago, however it's not reverse racism, it's just racism. If a white person gets killed, beaten, raped or just in general disrespected only because they're white and nothing else, then it's just straight up racism. And it does happen. Just because it's not as intense it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's the definition of racism. No matter how much you wanna spin it. The dictionary is open. 

[Headlock]

37 minutes ago, Blankspace2010 said:

Polish people don’t associate or have a generational learning of black face being racist - in fact they don’t even think it is racist.

Ignorance is not an excuse for racism, what in the world 

Also in a globalized society where a person like Nelly is well known enough to BE imitated on a Polish TV show, you can’t make the excuse of ignorance either.

[The Next Day]

53 minutes ago, Blankspace2010 said:

Yes! Historical and social context matters. 

If we had a discussion about the n-word appearing in books from the 19th century, I would agree. But to apply this generalisation to the present is a slippery slope as it could be used to justify a lot of bad things that are happening because of culture. There is a war going on in Eastern Europe that was justified because of "history". The historical context can't be the deciding factor for everything.

 

39 minutes ago, Blankspace2010 said:

You can assume that every polish person has an agenda to push white supremacy through talent show programmes if you wish - if you don’t think that and think it’s an unnecessary ignorant mistake - then we both have the same opinion.

I can only speak for myself when I say we're having this argument because you keep denying there's a responsibility for certain people who made this mistake. I would call it an ignorant racist mistake. I don't think there's an agenda. There's much more nuance to how racism works. As I said, I don't think anyone in the video woke up that morning thinking "I want to offend Black people today".

 

But my problem is that you're telling me there is no one to blame for what happened cause Polish people can't be ignorant towards Black people cause they don't have the specific history. But if no one is to blame for this mistake, then it can't be a mistake. So what is it then? Who do you think messed up here?

 

Edited April 29, 2023 by The Next Day

[Communion]

1 hour ago, Phantom said:

Europeans when commenting on racial injustices in America: omg IMAGINE living there  AMERICA and RACISTS!1

 

Europeans when asked to not defend blackface or call for the mass arrests of Roma:

 

 

 

 

[AxelFox]

Shows like this are quite popular in Eastern Europe I feel. We have it in my country too, my grandma watches it religiously   It's called 'I Know You From Somewhere' here.

 

Basically every week the contestants (usually local celebrities) spin the wheel and they are assigned another artist to make their best impersonation of for next week. The roster consists of both local and international artists, and yes black, latino and asian artists are included too. They are judged based on how well they impersonated the artist.  I can see how it could be offensive to said people, but I do not think it is done in bad faith. The original artists are almost always praised in these shows. 

 

Here are some of ATRL's faves from my country's version of the show if you're down for a kii:

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Headlock]

3 minutes ago, The Next Day said:

If we had a discussion about the n-word appearing in books from the 19th century, I would agree. But to apply this generalisation to the present is a slippery slope as it could be used to justify a lot of bad things that are happening because of culture. There is a war going on in Eastern Europe that was justified because of "history". The historical context can't be the deciding factor for everything.

 

I can only speak for myself when I say we're having this argument because you keep denying there's a responsibility for certain people who made this mistake. I would call it an ignorant racist mistake. I don't think there's an agenda. There's much more nuance to how racism works. But my problem is that you're telling me no one here is to blame for what happened cause Polish people can't be ignorant towards Black people cause they don't have the specific history. But if no one is to blame for this mistake, then it can't be a mistake. So what is it then?

 

It’s also not a get-out-jail-free card either. You can’t feign ignorance to absolve responsibility in the setting of a famous American black artist being imitated. That literally proves American culture is well known enough in Poland to have a hip-hop artist be imitated and recognized. We’re supposed to believe American culture is ubiquitous enough for that, but not to know about the centuries of racist persecution towards black people? Which also doesn’t even begin to touch on the fact that, ya know, Europeans literally colonized Africa and initiated the slave trade to the Americas in the first place.

[Headlock]

1 minute ago, AxelFox said:

I can see how it could be offensive to said people, but I do not think it is done in bad faith.

 

 

Bad faith is not a necessary criteria to determine wrongdoing 

[Devin]

 this entire thread…

[Komet]

Americans finding out about Your Face Sounds Familiar is always a kii