discussion African countries look to China for future growth and not America

[Communion]

10 minutes ago, Archetype said:

It’s both bad and good at the same time.  Everyone should want African nations to be provided the technology, expertise, and financial support to develop quickly and in a way that is responsible to their people.  China is doing good things here, but it’s at the expense of debt that cannot be repaid financially.  The same condemnation applies to any country doing this, western countries included.  I don’t blame them tho, and it’s a very smart move from China (they came up with this idea almost 2 decades ago).  

I think my issue - more-so with these conversations in general - is that there are meaningful, material distinctions between domination vs exploitation. Exploitation happens in anything that is inherently uneven. Not all aspects of exploitation entail domination, and domination is required in discussions of colonialism.

 

What America and European powers did to nations throughout the Global South over the course of the last 3-4 centuries constitutes domination.  When people reference debt traps Western powers have locked countries into via domination, these historical events within colonialism are what are being referenced.

 

But by comparison, nearly all of those aspects of domination are absent from China, ie: there's no country within Africa as a continent that can say it has reasonable fears China's going to bomb and invade its borders. It's why I use the example of Eastern European nations being forced into uneven alliances with Western European nations. Because while they're uneven, they're still consensual alliances where both parties benefit.

 

So when China's growing economic alliances are criticized (and this really isn't aimed at your post since you didn't explicitly say so which was my bad to quote you directly), it feels dishonest for those who benefit from Western hegemony to try and recall images of Western colonialism, as opposed to the much more accurate and comparative realities within economic alliances of their own, like even just in the European Union.

 

Greece knows it is at the bottom of the EU totem pole. It knows its massive loans with the IMF entitle Western Europe (corporations and governments) to do as they please. But this imbalance is never hyperbolically compared to times of chattel slavery and colonial domination, for example. Because it's not the same. And so when this conversation is plagued with people who insist such realities amongst China and its growing alliances are comparable to such, it's clear there's no interest for many beyond defend Western hegemony.

[JonginBey]

4 hours ago, Helios said:

Its serving ATRL calling Taylor Swift a flop teas.  

Except only one of those would be a lie 

[Helios]

3 minutes ago, JonginBey said:

Except only one of those would be a lie 

A #1 is a #1 and both are at the top of the charts it seems.

[A.R.L]

You Know there are thousands of articles talking about western support for African countries, but one thing is for sure no one is doing you a favor without return, be it a western or eastern country and especially china 

[ClashAndBurn]

America feels extremely threatened by China right now. In more ways than one.

Edited April 4, 2023 by ClashAndBurn

[Intuition]

Should I care?

US doesn't need to be the world police and involved in everyone else's affairs, it's disastrous for everyone involved.

[FreeXone]

15 hours ago, Helios said:

Not the anti-U.S pro Chinese propagandists infiltrating ATRL of all places. I guess it was only a matter of time.

These fools would DIE if they had to live under the rule of China. You don’t want Chinas and Russias political influence running the world Lmao it sure isnt progressive 

Edited April 4, 2023 by FreeXone

[FreeXone]

3 hours ago, Intuition said:

Should I care?

US doesn't need to be the world police and involved in everyone else's affairs, it's disastrous for everyone involved.

Y’all always say that until it some issue involving your best interest then all of a sudden it’s “omg they need to do something” 

[HEAVYONIT]

"Future growth" aka exploiting all their resources and cheap labor, but OK 

[Helios]

29 minutes ago, FreeXone said:

Y’all always say that until it some issue involving your best interest then all of a sudden it’s “omg they need to do something” 

Exactly. EVERY TIME there is a humanitarian crisis around the world people (especially the keyboard warriors) are screaming WhErE Iz ThE U.s?!! 

[Communion]

1 hour ago, FreeXone said:

Y’all always say that until it some issue involving your best interest then all of a sudden it’s “omg they need to do something” 

I can guarantee you not a single soul desires for America to be involved in geopolitical issues of the Global South, let alone those critical of its colonialism. You're taking nonsense. 

 

I promise the boot can't be that delicious. 

[AMIT]

1 hour ago, FreeXone said:

Y’all always say that until it some issue involving your best interest then all of a sudden it’s “omg they need to do something” 

 

[FreeXone]

42 minutes ago, Communion said:

I can guarantee you not a single soul desires for America to be involved in geopolitical issues of the Global South, let alone those critical of its colonialism. You're taking nonsense. 

 

I promise the boot can't be that delicious. 

Then stop trying to come here for asylum and other western nations if we are SO BAD. Go beg China. 

[Dialamba]

Africa will never be free  They never learn 

[Communion]

4 hours ago, FreeXone said:

Then stop trying to come here for asylum and other western nations if we are SO BAD

Who caused the conflict in these regions that created the refugees in questions? Quickly.

 

[Aethereal]

On 4/5/2023 at 1:02 AM, Communion said:

Who caused the conflict in these regions that created the refugees in questions? Quickly.

 

Why count all Western countries into one? Germany is not related to America and it's getting million of refugees. By far more Slavs and Jews were oppressed by Germans than any other group and they are not a part of those refugees. What China is doing is not different from what Europeans did to some African countries like Zimbabwe.  They build some roads in Zimbabwe and developed medicine (which is far more than China has ever done to Africa) while exploiting the African resources and population for cheap exchange. 

 

Also what caused which conflict exactly? Not all Middle Eastern conflicts are related to America. And most African conflicts are not related to Europeans or Americans at all. Also 2 African countries were never colonized. 

 

Africa's economy is growing and will continue to grow bigger though. 

[Communion]

2 minutes ago, Aristotle said:

What China is doing is not different from what Europeans did to some African countries like Zimbabwe. 

This is like frighteningly shocking of someone to say and shows a purposeful ignorance to the violence of places like Rhodesia and the actual extension of European colonialism in the world. China isn't going to Africa and building new countries where the native population is under apartheid. Stop it. Be serious. 

[Communion]

Also:

5 minutes ago, Aristotle said:

Germany is not related to America and it's getting million of refugees.

Quote

The German intervention against the Islamic State (codenamed Operation Counter Daesh)^[1] was authorized on 4 December 2015. The involvement of the country in the Syrian Civil War and the War in Iraq (2013–2017) began with the Bundeswehr mission in Syria and Iraq to combat the terrorist organization Islamic State.

Germany: *helps bomb the Middle East*

You: "hmmm and yet Germany has millions of refugees despite being perfect... why?"

 

[Aethereal]

Just now, Communion said:

This is like frighteningly shocking of someone to say and shows a purposeful ignorance to the violence of places like Rhodesia and the actual extension of European colonialism in the world. China isn't going to Africa and building new countries where the native population is under apartheid. Stop it. Be serious. 

I said some. I aware what happened to Congo and Namibia. In Congo the death toll reached 1 million (the 10M figure was debunked) while in Namibia around 34,000 minimum up to 110,000 and many cruel tortures happened. 

 

As for the apartheid that is true but it depends on timing. China, first of all cannot do that anymore. And second even in apartheid there was still some progress for early 20th century standards in the lifestyle of tribesmen similarly there is still some progress made by China for today's standards. But it's still unfair and evil.

[Bosque]

China has made a lot of investments in African and other countries that those countries will never ever be able to repay, so China will be forced to either write off the loss or take ownership of the infrastructure. Whatever path they choose to take. Obviously it's nice and beneficial for those countries though that they got the investment and infrastructure, but at the end of the day it is not going to be a benefit to China. 

China spent $240bn on belt and road bailouts from 2008 to 2021, study finds | Belt and road initiative | The Guardian

 

Also, just to put things into perspective, the GDP of California alone is greater than that of the entirety of Africa and growing about twice as fast, so for better or worse, the USA just is not that concerned about how Africa feels about them. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Dephira

[Aethereal]

27 minutes ago, Communion said:

Also:

Germany: *helps bomb the Middle East*

You: "hmmm and yet Germany has millions of refugees despite being perfect... why?"

 

I am not against Germany taking refugees. If I was in their shoes I would want help too. With that logic only a very small fraction should come to Germany and more to America which has much less welfare programs.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Aristotle

[Communion]

5 minutes ago, Aristotle said:

As for the apartheid that is true but it depends on timing. China, first of all cannot do that anymore. 

Look at the mistreatment of Palestinians in Israel-occupied Palestine. The bombing of holy places. Reporters shot and killed by foreign, occupying armies. American citizens literally crushed by bulldozers if they try to stop settlements being built.

 

Unless you have evidence of China doing even 1/10th of that in any African country, statements like "no country can even commit apartheid anymore" and "The West did lots for Zimbabwe" are wildly ignorant at best and crimes against humanity-denying at worst. No, de-dollarization or growing Chinese prosperity is not just as bad as uh *check notes* de-facto racial segregation.

 

Sis, sometimes you don't have to try to find some middle ground. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Communion

[Theshigo Washidu]

On 4/3/2023 at 6:31 PM, Monday Night Messiah said:

Debt trap. China is pillaging their natural resources for cheap. Not that America won't do that, but the Chinese is more sinister about it. Just look at what they did to Kenya and Uganda.

 

On 4/3/2023 at 6:50 PM, Zoe_ said:

Why blame US for EVERYTHING? Firstly, some African nations need to look at their corrupt leaders. Also, Europe has done more damage to Africa than any other continent.