news World Athletics bans transwomen from competing in sports entirely

[Femalien]

25 minutes ago, Communion said:

And yet this decision rebukes and ignores the science we have showing that hormone replacement therapy can and does reduce the strength of male competitors and makes them on the level of female competitors.

I'm speaking specifically to the issue of intersexuality; the hormone replacement therapy part pertains to Lia Thomas and other transwomen. 

 

25 minutes ago, Communion said:

Your sex essentialism makes you think a woman like Semenya is "just really a male" () instead of actually seeing that Semenya represents the biological diversity of female physicality. That you had to be prodded and pushed to admit the rhetoric and intention you have proves this point. 

 

Competitive sports are inherently unfair. Michael Phelps was not classified as a new type of sex just because he had a 1-in-1M genetic disorder that gave him rare physicality, in the way you propose that a cis woman genetically producing more testosterone than the average cis woman somehow becomes "male" because of out-dated scientific thought (while then addressing everything that has been developed to correct these previously held views as 'pseudoscience'. ).

It's not my opinion that Semenya is "really just a male." I'm simply reporting tenets of the scientific point of view that informed the decision to bar Semenya and other individuals with XY DSDs from competing in the future, which highlight the inaccuracy of referring to Semenya as a ciswoman, yet it seems like you're shooting the messenger instead. I don't I don't see how Semenya's body can be attributed to the diversity of female physicality when she has XY chromosomes, internal testes, an unvirilized *****, and a body flooded with testosterone as its primary sex hormone. It would be erroneous to file this among manifestations of female diversity, individuals with 5ARD are considered as born males that never virilized due to  an enzyme deficiency. This definition of 5ARD has not changed and thus I don't think it can be categorized as outdated like you're saying.

 

As for Michael Phelps, I have seen points of view which assert that his physical differences are indeed unfair and should bar him from competing. However I don't know enough about his condition to speak on it, all I know is he has a greater wingspan and lung capacity than the average male. Again though I think it's specious to compare his bodily differences to actual ascertainable sex differences that have existing diagnoses that are well understood. 

 

6 minutes ago, Communion said:

Also this:

Sis, you can't do an about-face and try to go from Lipstick Alley-style transphobic trolling to trying to claim you're really just a concerned person caring about trans people and ending transphobia. 

 

You're not caring about "stopping transphobia" when:

- Promoting actual pseudoscience like "autogynephila" that have long been debunked:

 

- Pushing propaganda about trans healthcare:

 

- Defending Jeffree Star attacking trans people and calling him "based":

 

- Promoting vocal figureheads of anti-trans movements:

 

And that's just the **** that comes up from the last like 2 months of a Google Search. 

 

So someone who isn't a TERF and doesn't like transphobia just so happens to have deep knowledge about sex essentialist topics like theorizing a woman who has never confirmed such is "genetically male" or promoting debunked "typographies of transsexualism", and eagerly defends people who regularly degrade trans people? 

 

The DOG WHISTLE isn't supposed to be so loud that it's a BARK. 

 

I don't think any of these show transphobic point of views. Ridiculing Kayla Lemieux was part of my defense of actual trans individuals, and Witch Trials of JK Rowling is a podcast examining all sides of the discourse surrounding the transgender culture war, and I make it a point to consume information from both sides of the argument to stay as informed as possible without getting polarized or radicalized to one side. And how is mourning Tavistock's shutdown pushing propaganda? I think you're being over the top. I've seen you do this to a lot of people and while I can appreciate your zeal, I think the militancy with which you discuss these matters is unwarranted and makes you difficult to deal with. You're way too aggressive with how you hound people on this website who have different points of view than you.

[Fuecoco]

Some people in here are wayyy too invested.

[Aethereal]

36 minutes ago, Communion said:

Lipstick Alley-style transphobic trolling

 

So you know. Wonder why are only white gay men questioned for bigotry as "the spoiled privileged minority" and never women. Cis straight white women vote far more on Trump side than white gays do and you never hear anything about that. 

 

[Communion]

39 minutes ago, Femalien said:

Ridiculing Kayla Lemieux was part of my defense of actual trans individuals

Most people ridiculed said person by assuming they were a troll, not promoting pseudoscience like autogynephila. Literally no one besides TERFs or those who have to deal with TERFs know about or reference autogynephila - explicitly because it is an outdated relic of a medical theory that has never once passed peer-review and is both homophobic and transphobic (suggesting that all trans women are either straight cis men attracted to the idea of having a ****** or gay cis men attracted to the idea of being with heterosexual men).

 

No one is "militant". You're just now trying to walk back the dog whistles you''re peddling and didn't expect for most people to pick up on. I mean, you are literally saying a cis woman, if your theory was correct, would have been forced as a child to undergo *corrective* surgery to give her what they believe she was *supposed* to have - a ****** that appeared developed. That you even refer to this as "cosmetic" surgery to imply some kind of trickery or self-serving intent from Semenya about her genitals wrt to being an athlete is a further set of dog whistles. 

 

This *clearly* isn't about sports for you. 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Communion

[Mr. Blue_Shirt]

3 hours ago, Communion said:

I think the most frustrating thing about anti-trans folks is that they try to present arguments in some kind of bad faith "rational" light that feels so pointless to try and debate because it so quickly becomes sealioning.

 

Such topics *do* require nuanced, sensitive and thoughtful conversations to find some kind of solution.

Unfortunately, the side that is incapable of that is also the side vehemently materially harming trans people.

 

In this thread alone:

> "Transwomen are just MEN bad at sports who have to flunk out of manhood! *cites fake stats*"

> "Well, that's actually untrue, and what you're citing actually shows HRT does often reduce the strength of trans women competitive athletes down to the levels of their cis women peers. Yes, male puberty and female puberty, as clunky as those terms are, can differently impact strength, but what you're citing shows that can be undone."

> *vanishes from thread*

 

> "It's really not that hard. Men have PENISES. Women have VAGINAS! Period! We need to protect women in sports!"

> "That's not the definition of biologically female the org is using, and in fact, are banning several cis women."

> "Okay? And? Why should I have to care about those women???"

 

> "This is perfectly reasonable of a decision. At the end of the day, male puberty is a factual reality."

> "So if undergoing puberty is the criteria to which someone is ineligible, does this mean you support young teens starting puberty blockers to meet the criteria you're saying is reasonable? How can someone become eligible to compete if then you also propose and support the banning of non-adults transitioning?"

> "YOU WANT TO MUTILATE AND CASTRATE CHILDREN? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?? THESE EXTREME IDEAS IS WHY YOU TRANS RIGHTS ACTIVISTS HAVE RUINED OUR MOVEMENT. LGB! **** THE T!!!!"

 

[Femalien]

1 hour ago, Communion said:

Most people ridiculed said person by assuming they were a troll, not promoting pseudoscience like autogynephila. Literally no one besides TERFs or those who have to deal with TERFs know about or reference autogynephila - explicitly because it is an outdated relic of a medical theory that has never once passed peer-review and is both homophobic and transphobic (suggesting that all trans women are either straight cis men attracted to the idea of having a ****** or gay cis men attracted to the idea of being with heterosexual men).

No one is "militant". You're just now trying to walk back the dog whistles you''re peddling and didn't expect for most people to pick up on.

You're right that I was sloppy with my usage of terms there, as I was using the contentious term "autogynephilia" instead of using the proper term, transvestic disorder, formerly known as transvestic fetishism until the most recent DSM revision. These are not pseudoscientific concepts, as transvestic disorder (the legitimate and correct term, which I will use going forward instead of autogynephilia) is a legitimate psychiatric diagnosis and sexual paraphilia that is listed in the DSM 5. The existence of this term is not meant to degrade trans people, it's intended to weed out bad apples like Kayla Lemieux who are clearly engaging in a sexual paraphilia that is entirely separate from an actual trans identity with legitimate gender dysphoria. 

 

I am not trying to walk back anything, I stand by all the things you quoted. 

2 hours ago, Communion said:

I mean, you are literally saying a cis woman, if your theory was correct, would have been forced as a child to undergo *corrective* surgery to give her what they believe she was *supposed* to have - a ****** that appeared developed. That you even refer to this as "cosmetic" surgery to imply some kind of trickery or self-serving intent from Semenya about her genitals wrt to being an athlete is a further set of dog whistles. 

I do not understand this part. 

 

[GraceRandolph]

This is supposed to protect women, yet it could ban women with differences of sex development.

[Nano]

8 hours ago, Miss Show Business said:

Trans people fought, lived, and died, so that some day gay folks would have rights such as same sex marriages. We didn't ask these trans folks to do this — but they did anyways because an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us. Period.

You don't actually know LGBT history. Before the 90s trans people actively tried to seperate themselves from gay and lesbian activism.

[BabyBenzz]

they're not banned entirely? Plus, there's a reason why there's different categories, biological males have more advantages vs biological females, so this is only fair 

[GraceRandolph]

1 hour ago, Nano said:

You don't actually know LGBT history. Before the 90s trans people actively tried to seperate themselves from gay and lesbian activism.

The trans community is not a monolith 

[Headlock]

On 3/24/2023 at 3:18 AM, Nano said:

You don't actually know LGBT history. Before the 90s trans people actively tried to seperate themselves from gay and lesbian activism.

…are…are you actively disagreeing with their statement and saying that trans people had no part in the advancement of gay rights  

Edited March 26, 2023 by Headlock

[Eternal220]

As they should. There are obviously biological advantages of being born a certain gender
 

people asking for others to get banned just cause you don’t agree with their opinion 

[AvadaKedavra]

This topic is too controversial, So lemme just watch  but im against banning people. No one should be banned  thats very mean 
Forums should have only temporary bans from some days in extreme cases 

I think both sides are right. Science wise males are stronger than woman but i think they should allow the transgender community 
Are not victories in sports more about training than physichality? the most trained you are the bigger chances to win.
Also if trasgender women get banned where they will compete? I dont think they would have a good time competing against males
Genetically some people are stronger than other ones based on the conditions they grew up with but we dont separate them. 

Like someone said here. Maybe this should be a Woman only thread.
Lets women (including transwomen) decide  we as males lets stay silent hennies 
 

Edited March 24, 2023 by AvadaKedavra

[zasderfght]

16 hours ago, Miss Show Business said:

If you are LGBTQ and do not understand why this is wrong and transphobic... Then it should be ZTP.

 

It's 2023. If you are LGBTQ and do not understand that sex and gender are complex and not black and white, and that many factors decide how a person develops... Well, then that's your own fault, because there are plenty within the community educating people.

 

Trans people fought, lived, and died, so that some day gay folks would have rights such as same sex marriages. We didn't ask these trans folks to do this — but they did anyways because an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us. Period. We owe our trans brothers and sisters the dignity and respect of being educated about their struggle and being informed and educated about these matters. Period.

 

People might think you're annoying, but you're spilling facts. Maybe it helps that one of my best friends is trans, so I can practice a little more sympathy. If cis-gays were banned at an event, this forum would look a LOT different. 

 

The truth is, someone will always be faster, stronger, and more skillful than you. There are female athletes who are probably faster than male athletes. It's time to stop using the "men are physically stronger than women"/"it's biology" straw-man argument. 

[zasderfght]

14 hours ago, Ampersand13 said:

Listen, this is obviously a topic that requires nuance, care, and patience. Judging on some of the comments made in this thread, unfortunately I don’t believe every member is capable of that. 
 

I get it, when I first thought about trans athletes having an unfair advantage over cis gendered athletes, my initial reaction was agreement. Cut and dry, biological differences are documented and understood ergo the concern over this potential ‘advantage’ makes sense. 

 

However, if you engage with some of the studies and observations, you’ll learn that it isn’t so straightforward after all. And that actually there is evidence to suggest that trans athletes don’t have an advantage in the way that’s being claimed, and that the argument lacks proof and credibility (either because the people spreading it are transphobic or because research on the topic is still very young, probably both.) 

 

If you want to blindly believe in this advantage, I can’t stop you. I can only ask that before you make up your mind, you at least entertain the other side, that you read some articles which offer a different opinion, and that you show your fellow members some grace. I don’t expect everyone on a pop music forum to be consistently up to date on the literature and schools of thought concerning every hot button topic. However, if you’re confident enough to enter a thread about a deeply important issue, then I hope you’ve done your due diligence to inform the opinion you’re subjecting everyone else to.

 

Here is, what I consider, a nice introduction article to the topic: https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked

 

Lastly, if you genuinely believe this biological advantage between trans and cis gendered women exists beyond a shadow of a doubt, I do think you have to acknowledge the fact that people are using this debate to further attack trans women. I’m not saying you specifically are, but you have to know that not everyone supporting your side is doing so without ulterior motives. 

This. +1 

[Aethereal]

8 hours ago, Femalien said:

You're right that I was sloppy with my usage of terms there, as I was using the contentious term "autogynephilia" instead of using the proper term, transvestic disorder, formerly known as transvestic fetishism until the most recent DSM revision. These are not pseudoscientific concepts, as transvestic disorder (the legitimate and correct term, which I will use going forward instead of autogynephilia) is a legitimate psychiatric diagnosis and sexual paraphilia that is listed in the DSM 5. The existence of this term is not meant to degrade trans people, it's intended to weed out bad apples like Kayla Lemieux who are clearly engaging in a sexual paraphilia that is entirely separate from an actual trans identity with legitimate gender dysphoria. 

 

 

@Communion

The study done in the 80s or 90s (regarding transvestic fetishism) had lot's of flaws. One of them is that real translesbians rarely came out in the 80s so many of those cross dressers that participated in the study were actually cis men (they did not identify as trans women). Meanwhile the study also claims translesbians outnumbered trans women who were only attracted to men. That is true now but it was not the case decades ago. (For obvious reasons)

So that puts lot of suspicion on the study, especially on the samples that were taken as evidence. 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Aristotle

[SeeingStars1515]

The way I see it- there are huge structural differences between me, a 5'6' man and a 6'4 man. It's why I didn't have much of a chance at being a bball star, for example. I see how this immutable difference is any difference than a transwoman playing a sport.

[Tropez]

They should just remove gendered categories. 

[Machete]

This is completely fair

 

Anyone who calls this "transphobia" just belittles genuine transphobia and important trans issues.

[Fruity]

This is the correct and fair decision.

[Theshigo Washidu]

It's better for transwomen to have their own category rather than excluding them entirely.

[Cloröx]

2 hours ago, zasderfght said:

People might think you're annoying, but you're spilling facts. Maybe it helps that one of my best friends is trans, so I can practice a little more sympathy. If cis-gays were banned at an event, this forum would look a LOT different. 

 

The truth is, someone will always be faster, stronger, and more skillful than you. There are female athletes who are probably faster than male athletes. It's time to stop using the "men are physically stronger than women"/"it's biology" straw-man argument. 

Except it is, men in general and average is superior than women which explain why testosterone suppression treatment is necessary at first place. And studies have proved that transwomen who undergone months/years of such treatment still possess superior physical compared to cis-women.

[CandleGuy]

1 hour ago, Machete said:

This is completely fair

 

Anyone who calls this "transphobia" just belittles genuine transphobia and important trans issues.

I say this as someone who supports the trans community, trans workplace protections, etc..

 

The complete denial of some within the trans movement that there are legitimate physical differences between men and women is going to be the death of the movement.

[worldwide angel]

the transphobes on the first page

 

17 hours ago, Miss Show Business said:

If you are LGBTQ and do not understand why this is wrong and transphobic... Then it should be ZTP.

 

It's 2023. If you are LGBTQ and do not understand that sex and gender are complex and not black and white, and that many factors decide how a person develops... Well, then that's your own fault, because there are plenty within the community educating people.

 

Trans people fought, lived, and died, so that some day gay folks would have rights such as same sex marriages. We didn't ask these trans folks to do this — but they did anyways because an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us. Period. We owe our trans brothers and sisters the dignity and respect of being educated about their struggle and being informed and educated about these matters. Period.

 

 

the nerve of that user calling bigotry a "respectful opinion"

[Red Velvet]

It makes sense given the biological advantage. Serena Williams summed it up well here.