news World Athletics bans transwomen from competing in sports entirely

[Headlock]

3 minutes ago, Communion said:

I think the most frustrating thing about anti-trans folks is that they try to present arguments in some kind of bad faith "rational" light that feels so pointless to try and debate because it so quickly becomes sealioning.

 

Such topics *do* require nuanced, sensitive and thoughtful conversations to find some kind of solution.

Unfortunately, the side that is incapable of that is also the side vehemently materially harming trans people.

 

In this thread alone:

> "Transwomen are just MEN bad at sports who have to flunk out of manhood! *cites fake stats*"

> "Well, that's actually untrue, and what you're citing actually shows HRT does often reduce the strength of trans women competitive athletes down to the levels of their cis women peers. Yes, male puberty and female puberty, as clunky as those terms are, can differently impact strength, but what you're citing shows that can be undone."

> *vanishes from thread*

 

> "It's really not that hard. Men have PENISES. Women have VAGINAS! Period! We need to protect women in sports!"

> "That's not the definition of biologically female the org is using, and in fact, are banning several cis women."

> "Okay? And? Why should I have to care about those women???"

 

> "This is perfectly reasonable of a decision. At the end of the day, male puberty is a factual reality."

> "So if undergoing puberty is the criteria to which someone is ineligible, does this mean you support young teens starting puberty blockers to meet the criteria you're saying is reasonable? How can someone become eligible to compete if then you also propose and support the banning of non-adults transitioning?"

> "YOU WANT TO MUTILATE AND CASTRATE CHILDREN? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?? THESE EXTREME IDEAS IS WHY YOU TRANS RIGHTS ACTIVISTS HAVE RUINED OUR MOVEMENT. LGB! **** THE T!!!!"

 

Notice how the users who say this decision is "fair," are also the same ones also supporting attacks on trans children receiving gender-affirming healthcare "to protect the children!1!", healthcare which THEY AGREE could "allow" trans women to participate in sports in their opinion.

 

Kind of seems like they want trans women to suffer as children AND adults

 

[Headlock]

1 minute ago, Phantom said:

Hxbxnxnxbzbzbb

 

I JUST know you're probably a cis white man from what Netherlands? Spain? saying asinine **** like this online

It's giving "separate but equal" discourse

 

[Femalien]

1 hour ago, Communion said:

Oh wait, they're not even trying to hide the essentialist nonsense and going for the cis girlies too. 

 

They really said "women are from VENUS and men are from MARS and if you're not a perfect alignment of very specific female sex characteristics, you're a ******* MAN!". 

 

Countless female athletes just got effectively ban despite being cis women. 

 

 

I think arguments representing Caster Semenya and other individuals with XY DSDs as cis women are specious. Caster is technically male, with XY chromosomes, internal testes in lieu of ovaries (which provide her with a male level of testosterone), and born with a undervirilized ***** that was then operated on cosmetically to resemble vulva. These bodily differences were confirmed through rigorous testing she was subject to to verify her suspected intersex status. Thus I don't think it's fair to use an intersex individual as evidence of cis women being disqualified.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Femalien

[Before Today]

Entirely? But to me it is fair that ciswomen and transwomen shouldn't compete in the same category.

[Aethereal]

8 minutes ago, Communion said:

 

 

> "It's really not that hard. Men have PENISES. Women have VAGINAS! Period! We need to protect women in sports!"

> "That's not the definition of biologically female the org is using, and in fact, are banning several cis women."

> "Okay? And? Why should I have to care about those women???"

 

Female or male in an all-species definition is not categorized directly by genitals as there are female and male species without sexual genitals like PLANTS. 

But  the actual official biological definition: 

Female - "of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes."

Male -  of or denoting the sex that produces small, typically motile gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring.

[Brando]

5 minutes ago, Communion said:

Have trans people... triggered you?

this is the reason i keep saying i don't want to discuss anything with you. 

i told you multiple times on this forum that i support trans people and trans rights

yet every single time you forcefully put words in my mouth and try to paint me into a transphobe

 

people like you are the reason the society is turning more and more transphobic and homophobic 

it's so tiring 

 

[CBC]

I guess it makes sense. I assume there aren't enough trans athletes to create a 3rd category so I hope they at least let trans women compete against cis men since according to the explanation they are at advantage. The question is, is said advantage enough for them to actually be competitive against men? What about trans men where do they fit? This is such a complex problem.

 

Also, "who cares about sports?" is rich coming from people who spend their days fighting other people online because of a parasocial relationship they developed with their faves over how many records theyve sold  

[Fuecoco]

27 minutes ago, Brando said:

Why? Because I don't share your exact views? You guys are genuinely crazy expecting everyone in the community to share your extreme views

Yup yup.

[banterfly]

Well, sports is very dependent on the physicality of a person so I agree with the decision. Trans people can form their own sports competition though.

[Communion]

Just now, Femalien said:

\Caster Semenya and other individuals with XY DSDs as cis women are specious. Caster is technically male

Whew, I knew you were deep in the anti-trans rhetoric with your other posts, but convincing you to say how you feel about Semenya to get you to go on record as being fully TERFed the **** out?

 

Women medically assigned FEMALE at birth, who have lived their lives as FEMALE, and who has never seen themselves or been seen by society as anything besides cis women being "not female" in your book shows how INSANE of a DEAD-END for cis women that sex essentialism and transphobia truly is. 

 

The argument that cis women athletes must be protected from trans women because of how disenfranchised women are....completely falls away if you then argue that cis women - who have only lived as women, experienced misogyny as women since birth, and have been disenfranchised in competitive sports for being women - are suddenly NOT women because of some "genetic female" equation you've calculated on an abacus. 

[Ampersand13]

Listen, this is obviously a topic that requires nuance, care, and patience. Judging on some of the comments made in this thread, unfortunately I don’t believe every member is capable of that. 
 

I get it, when I first thought about trans athletes having an unfair advantage over cis gendered athletes, my initial reaction was agreement. Cut and dry, biological differences are documented and understood ergo the concern over this potential ‘advantage’ makes sense. 

 

However, if you engage with some of the studies and observations, you’ll learn that it isn’t so straightforward after all. And that actually there is evidence to suggest that trans athletes don’t have an advantage in the way that’s being claimed, and that the argument lacks proof and credibility (either because the people spreading it are transphobic or because research on the topic is still very young, probably both.) 

 

If you want to blindly believe in this advantage, I can’t stop you. I can only ask that before you make up your mind, you at least entertain the other side, that you read some articles which offer a different opinion, and that you show your fellow members some grace. I don’t expect everyone on a pop music forum to be consistently up to date on the literature and schools of thought concerning every hot button topic. However, if you’re confident enough to enter a thread about a deeply important issue, then I hope you’ve done your due diligence to inform the opinion you’re subjecting everyone else to.

 

Here is, what I consider, a nice introduction article to the topic: https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked

 

Lastly, if you genuinely believe this biological advantage between trans and cis gendered women exists beyond a shadow of a doubt, I do think you have to acknowledge the fact that people are using this debate to further attack trans women. I’m not saying you specifically are, but you have to know that not everyone supporting your side is doing so without ulterior motives. 

[PoisonPill]

1 hour ago, Communion said:

This is right-wing propaganda and literally untrue. It doesn't even make sense as a lie.

 

There's no singular ranking of all women's swimmers as a whole. Why would you even think such made sense?  Swimmers are ranked by their times in different categories of races. Lia, pre-transition, was literally a competitive men's athlete. She was in the Top 35 - not Top 600 - for 1650-yard races in the men's league. 

 

I know. The #554->#5 move was in the 200 yard freestyle. 

[aesthetic bih]

3 hours ago, Femalien said:

I don't think it's accurate to say transwomen have been banned "entirely," as it looks like the ban only applies to trans individuals who have fully gone through the puberty of their natal sex. Seemingly, someone whose transition was able to start before puberty would still be allowed to compete

This, not the OP lowkey spreading misinformation. It's not "entirely", when there are some reservations (only those who transitioned post-puberty are not allowed)

 

We need to protect transwomens' rights, but we also cannot ignore biological womens' right.

 

They have to make some compromise, although it's NEVER going to be perfect, but at least both sides get to be considered. 

[PoisonPill]

5 minutes ago, Ampersand13 said:

Listen, this is obviously a topic that requires nuance, care, and patience. Judging on some of the comments made in this thread, unfortunately I don’t believe every member is capable of that. 
 

I get it, when I first thought about trans athletes having an unfair advantage over cis gendered athletes, my initial reaction was agreement. Cut and dry, biological differences are documented and understood ergo the concern over this potential ‘advantage’ makes sense. 

 

However, if you engage with some of the studies and observations, you’ll learn that it isn’t so straightforward after all. And that actually there is evidence to suggest that trans athletes don’t have an advantage in the way that’s being claimed, and that the argument lacks proof and credibility (either because the people spreading it are transphobic or because research on the topic is still very young, probably both.) 

 

If you want to blindly believe in this advantage, I can’t stop you. I can only ask that before you make up your mind, you at least entertain the other side, that you read some articles which offer a different opinion, and that you show your fellow members some grace. I don’t expect everyone on a pop music forum to be consistently up to date on the literature and schools of thought concerning every hot button topic. However, if you’re confident enough to enter a thread about a deeply important issue, then I hope you’ve done your due diligence to inform the opinion you’re subjecting everyone else to.

 

Here is, what I consider, a nice introduction article to the topic: https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked

 

Lastly, if you genuinely believe this biological advantage between trans and cis gendered women exists beyond a shadow of a doubt, I do think you have to acknowledge the fact that people are using this debate to further attack trans women. I’m not saying you specifically are, but you have to know that not everyone supporting your side is doing so without ulterior motives. 

Finally on page 8: a thoughtful, reasonable and adult response

[aesthetic bih]

3 hours ago, zach said:

Disgusting. This world is going to hell.

Can you suggest a better solution?

[Communion]

Just now, PoisonPill said:

I know. The #554->#5 move was in the 200 yard freestyle. 

Are you going to try and save face after being proven wrong? 

 

Lia fell over 400 spaces to get to #554 in the men's league 200-yard *because she started HRT while on the men's team*. 

 

 

Sounds like we agree that HRT makes material, objective changes to the physical strength displayed by those who undergo male puberty, even those who are peak, competitive athletes..

[Orsay]

It's really disheartening to see the first several replies all people rushing in here to applaud this given the context of right wingers using anti-trans rhetoric to fuel culture wars over the past few years... do any of you think of what its like to live as a trans person with this discourse constantly in the news? We know you don't give a damn about women in sports, so the concern for this issue seems pretty transparently hateful

 

And some of you point out that it doesn't apply to trans women who transitioned before puberty... Uh  that's the whole thing Republicans are trying to stop from happening under any circumstances (and finding success in many states!) so maybe just shelve that weak argument

[Into The Void]

1 hour ago, Dior said:

I am trans woman full of estrogen and passing and I agree. Trans women should not be competing with biological women in any sport professionally. 
 

Every time i do physical sport activities with my (bio) sister like swimming and running or cycling I always beat her. 
 

if trans people want to compete sports professionally there should be a trans category. Fair is fair & it would be a challenge! 

 

Its odd how no one is listening to transwomen in this conversation 

 

[Femalien]

23 minutes ago, Communion said:

Whew, I knew you were deep in the anti-trans rhetoric with your other posts, but convincing you to say how you feel about Semenya to get you to go on record as being fully TERFed the **** out?

 

Women medically assigned FEMALE at birth, who have lived their lives as FEMALE, and who has never seen themselves or been seen by society as anything besides cis women being "not female" in your book shows how INSANE of a DEAD-END for cis women that sex essentialism and transphobia truly is. 

 

The argument that cis women athletes must be protected from trans women because of how disenfranchised women are....completely falls away if you then argue that cis women - who have only lived as women, experienced misogyny as women since birth, and have been disenfranchised in competitive sports for being women - are suddenly NOT women because of some "genetic female" equation you've calculated on an abacus. 

I totally disagree. I think you're having an over-inflamed emotional reaction to these matters that actually inhibit your effort to fight transphobia. The part you bolded shows that you're coming at this from more of a humanistic, emotional standpoint, which is totally understandable, but if transphobia is to be stopped, we have to steelman our arguments and not rely on sloppy pseudoscience, nor should we be sensitive or thin-skinned over matters concerning the science of sex.

 

These aren't my "feelings" on Semenya, it's a medical consensus that got her disqualified from future competition in the first place, and I don't think that is a terven point of view. Caster and the other women listed have 5-alpha-reductase deficiency, which is an intersex condition that is specific to males. I am not denying their lived experience as women in society, but elite sports are not competitions measuring people's lived social experiences against each other, they're competitions measuring the peak physical performances of the human body, and they're sex segregated to ensure fairness. To observe that Caster et al have physical advantages attributable to their male physicality does not denigrate their humanity as a whole, it simply indicates that it's not fair them to compete at an elite level of sports with women who have not been afforded the physical benefits that come with XY DSDs. 

 

Previously ignoring this resulted in a top 3 entirely comprised of intersex individuals at Rio 2016 for the 800metre run. I just don't see how this can be considered fair. And I don't think this makes me a terf, this is speaking specifically to the issue of intersexuality in sports.

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Femalien

[Into The Void]

17 minutes ago, Communion said:

Are you going to try and save face after being proven wrong? 

 

Lia fell over 400 spaces to get to #554 in the men's league 200-yard *because she started HRT while on the men's team*. 

 

 

Sounds like we agree that HRT makes material, objective changes to the physical strength displayed by those who undergo male puberty, even those who are peak, competitive athletes..

 

8 minutes ago, Femalien said:

I totally disagree. I think you're having an over-inflamed emotional reaction to these matters that actually inhibit your effort to fight transphobia. The part you bolded shows that you're coming at this from more of a humanistic, emotional standpoint, which is totally understandable, but if transphobia is to be stopped, we have to steelman our arguments and not rely on sloppy pseudoscience, nor should we be sensitive or thin-skinned over matters concerning the science of sex.

 

These aren't my "feelings" on Semenya, it's a medical consensus that got her disqualified from future competition in the first place, and I don't think that is a terven point of view. Caster and the other women listed have 5-alpha-reductase deficiency, which is an intersex condition that is specific to males. I am not denying their lived experience as women in society, but elite sports are not competitions measuring people's lived social experiences against each other, they're competitions measuring the peak physical performances of the human body, and they're sex segregated to ensure fairness. To observe that Caster et al have physical advantages attributable to their male physicality does not denigrate their humanity as a whole, it simply indicates that it's not fair them to compete at an elite level of sports with women who have not been afforded the physical benefits that come with XY DSDs. 

 

Previously ignoring this resulted in a top 3 entirely comprised of intersex individuals at Rio 2016 for the 800metre run. I just don't see how this can be considered fair. And I don't think this makes me a terf, this is speaking specifically to the issue of intersexuality in sports.

 

This is so confusing. One say there is not an advantage and the other says there is so

 

[Femalien]

1 minute ago, Insanity said:

 

This is so confusing. One say there is not an advantage and the other says there is so

 

these are concerning separate issues. Lia Thomas is a transwoman, whereas Caster Semenya et al are intersex. 

[Cloröx]

2 hours ago, Dior said:

I am trans woman full of estrogen and passing and I agree. Trans women should not be competing with biological women in any sport professionally. 
 

Every time i do physical sport activities with my (bio) sister like swimming and running or cycling I always beat her. 
 

if trans people want to compete sports professionally there should be a trans category. Fair is fair & it would be a challenge! 

 

Well that's fair answer 

[Communion]

17 minutes ago, Femalien said:

but elite sports are not competitions measuring people's lived social experiences against each other, they're competitions measuring the peak physical performances of the human body

And yet this decision rebukes and ignores the science we have showing that hormone replacement therapy can and does reduce the strength of male competitors and makes them on the level of female competitors.

 

Your sex essentialism makes you think a woman like Semenya is "just really a male" () instead of actually seeing that Semenya represents the biological diversity of female physicality. That you had to be prodded and pushed to admit the rhetoric and intention you have proves this point. 

 

Competitive sports are inherently unfair. Michael Phelps was not classified as a new type of sex just because he had a 1-in-1M genetic disorder that gave him rare physicality, in the way you propose that a cis woman genetically producing more testosterone than the average cis woman somehow becomes "male" because of out-dated scientific thought (while then addressing everything that has been developed to correct these previously held views as 'pseudoscience'. ).

Edited March 24, 2023 by Communion

[Communion]

Also this:

28 minutes ago, Femalien said:

but if transphobia is to be stopped

Sis, you can't do an about-face and try to go from Lipstick Alley-style transphobic trolling to trying to claim you're really just a concerned person caring about trans people and ending transphobia. 

 

You're not caring about "stopping transphobia" when:

- Promoting actual pseudoscience like "autogynephila" that have long been debunked:

 

- Pushing propaganda about trans healthcare:

 

- Defending Jeffree Star attacking trans people and calling him "based":

 

- Promoting vocal figureheads of anti-trans movements:

 

And that's just the **** that comes up from the last like 2 months of a Google Search. 

 

So someone who isn't a TERF and doesn't like transphobia just so happens to have deep knowledge about sex essentialist topics like theorizing a woman who has never confirmed such is "genetically male" or promoting debunked "typographies of transsexualism", and eagerly defends people who regularly degrade trans people? 

 

The DOG WHISTLE isn't supposed to be so loud that it's a BARK. 

 

[Cloröx]

Put all sentiments aside, lets discuss evidence of transgender women having advantages over cis-women. Majority studies agreed that short-term testosterone suppression treatment is not enough so I guess the decision makes sense.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/

 

Quote

There is increasing debate as to whether transwoman athletes should be included in the elite female competition. Most elite sports are divided into male and female divisions because of the greater athletic performance displayed by males. Without the sex division, females would have little chance of winning because males are faster, stronger, and have greater endurance capacity. Male physiology underpins their better athletic performance including increased muscle mass and strength, stronger bones, different skeletal structure, better adapted cardiorespiratory systems, and early developmental effects on brain networks that wires males to be inherently more competitive and aggressive. Testosterone secreted before birth, postnatally, and then after puberty is the major factor that drives these physiological sex differences, and as adults, testosterone levels are ten to fifteen times higher in males than females. The non-overlapping ranges of testosterone between the sexes has led sports regulators, such as the International Olympic Committee, to use 10 nmol/L testosterone as a sole physiological parameter to divide the male and female sporting divisions. Using testosterone levels as a basis for separating female and male elite athletes is arguably flawed. Male physiology cannot be reformatted by estrogen therapy in transwoman athletes because testosterone has driven permanent effects through early life exposure. This descriptive critical review discusses the inherent male physiological advantages that lead to superior athletic performance and then addresses how estrogen therapy fails to create a female-like physiology in the male. Ultimately, the former male physiology of transwoman athletes provides them with a physiological advantage over the cis-female athlete.

 

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577

Quote

Results: Participants were 26.2 years old (SD 5.5). Prior to gender affirming hormones, transwomen performed 31% more push-ups and 15% more sit-ups in 1 min and ran 1.5 miles 21% faster than their female counterparts. After 2 years of taking feminising hormones, the push-up and sit-up differences disappeared but transwomen were still 12% faster. Prior to gender affirming hormones, transmen performed 43% fewer push-ups and ran 1.5 miles 15% slower than their male counterparts. After 1 year of taking masculinising hormones, there was no longer a difference in push-ups or run times, and the number of sit-ups performed in 1 min by transmen exceeded the average performance of their male counterparts.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7846503/

Quote

Males enjoy physical performance advantages over females within competitive sport. The sex-based segregation into male and female sporting categories does not account for transgender persons who experience incongruence between their biological sex and their experienced gender identity. Accordingly, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) determined criteria by which a transgender woman may be eligible to compete in the female category, requiring total serum testosterone levels to be suppressed below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to and during competition. Whether this regulation removes the male performance advantage has not been scrutinized. Here, we review how differences in biological characteristics between biological males and females affect sporting performance and assess whether evidence exists to support the assumption that testosterone suppression in transgender women removes the male performance advantage and thus delivers fair and safe competition. We report that the performance gap between males and females becomes significant at puberty and often amounts to 10–50% depending on sport. The performance gap is more pronounced in sporting activities relying on muscle mass and explosive strength, particularly in the upper body. Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment. Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed. Sports organizations should consider this evidence when reassessing current policies regarding participation of transgender women in the female category of sport.