news Russia and China join forces against ‘Evil’ US

[Communion]

2 minutes ago, Black Jesus said:

 The answer is many, unfortunately, but that's because of the electoral collegel

So you acknowledge that you bend your understanding and definition if what democracy is to accustom the US having a draconian centralization of power that is often at odds with its public, but you comfort yourself by thinking you're in some Marvel movie and you're the good guy to China's imaginary bad guy? 

[HEAVYONIT]

1 minute ago, Communion said:

So you acknowledge that you bend your understanding and definition if what democracy is to accustom the US having a draconian centralization of power that is often at odds with its public, but you comfort yourself by thinking you're in some Marvel movie and you're the good guy to China's imaginary bad guy? 

OK, stop being ridiculous 

[Bears01]

54 minutes ago, Communion said:

Quickly- how many leaders have been elected in the US despite not receiving the most votes?

5/59 elections. 8% of US elected presidents  have lost the popular vote while winning the presidency 

[JonginBey]

Send the rapture.

[Communion]

4 minutes ago, Bears01 said:

5/59 elections. 

33/59 Elections - Women barred from voting 

43/59 Elections - People of color barred from voting in at least one state

 

So that leaves 16 Elections. And you mean to tell me one-third openly resulted in votes not mattering?

 

So the beacon of democracy is a country where, at the bare minimum, 80% of its elections have not been decided by the people for the people? 

[wastedpotential]

26 minutes ago, Communion said:

33/59 Elections - Women barred from voting 

43/59 Elections - People of color barred from voting in at least one state

 

So that leaves 16 Elections. And you mean to tell me one-third openly resulted in votes not mattering?

 

So the beacon of democracy is a country where, at the bare minimum, 80% of its elections have not been decided by the people for the people? 

No, actually, if you're only going to count the elections where there was full suffrage, that's 2/16, since the first three instances of a president winning despite losing the popular vote were in the 19th century. That's still an uncomfortably high rate, sure, but it's not nearly as high as you make it out to be.

 

And if you're going to rag on US elections for not being open to all voters from the very beginning you should at least consider that the US was one of the first countries to bother conducting elections in the first place and as such has a very long history of elections that many other democracies don't (and those that do have a similarly long history also have just as long of a history of blocking women and minorities from voting) 

 

Canada blocked voters of colour until 1960, Aboriginal Australians couldn't vote until 1962, France and Switzerland blocked women from voting until the 50s or the 70s 

 

Plus, I don't get why you're bringing up this point. Today in 2023, elections in the US are open to every adult who isn't a felon (which is still very much an issue given the sheer number of people convicted of felonies for petty drug use), and the history really does not matter since those intolerable restrictions have been changed. 

 

The US is certainly a flawed democracy now given the two-party FPTP/SMD system that could and should be changed (as well as the electoral college, obviously), but it's not a total sham democracy like the ones seen in Russia. If only China bothered with elections, then we could point out how fraudulent they are as well. 

 

Plus, as far as representative democracies go, the US primary election system is quite unique and is highly democratic, as there are very few countries in the world where the people select the candidates for each party before the general election on such a wide scale. Allowing the people to pick from a wide field of candidates from each party, and then allowing the people to pick between the candidates of each party is very democratic, especially compared to Russia or China. 

 

EDIT: and I don't think the US is really considered a beacon of democracy anymore. It was certainly one of the first full democracies, but there are several systems much better implemented, like the German system or the French System (where the people's will is more directly heard) upon which most new democracies base their constitutions. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by wastedpotential

[BGKC]

Well the exploitive, corporate entity and war monger that is the US can’t really say much after they sacrificed their own working class in favor of building up China’s economy. There’s no other way of putting it. China was simply handed all the tools necessary that once allowed working-middle class communities in the US to thrive thanks to Raegan. The working class in America was destroyed and fed to the dogs ever since. like where else to you see homeless veterans in the thousands after wasting trillions in the Middle East? Let alone the war on drugs and how it translates to free prison labor. Like it’s not even about “simping for China” it’s about recognizing the way corporate owned politicians literally put China before the American people for a profit lol. China has tons of issues, but I’d put money that the US would be a dystopian war zone if it had HALF the population as China. 
We can also talk about government dictatorships in China or Russia all day, but the US is dictated by corporations. The two party system in itself is a threat to democracy and THEE perfect way to divide and conquer us into a fascist regime. 
 

Russia is the worst of the three, generally speaking, but you can’t blame China for wanting to work with them from a geopolitical perspective. Especially against the wolf in sheep’s clothing (US) 

[Helios]

It’s serving swifties and monsters uniting against the katykats.

[Harrier]

13 hours ago, Communion said:

 

 

People cite this reactionary demand to center morality in geopolitical discussions because it is so clearly uneven and not coming from a place of objectivity, even when I think you genuinely believe in your heart of hearts that you're earnestly advocating for good-intended causes.

 

Even two posts down, you concede that China is not a physically dangerous place to be gay, and that the vast majority of issues that impact Chinese people are largely universal forms of suppression across East Asia, ie: pharmaceuticals being taboo, being gay being at odds with social conservatism, hostility and societal mistreatment of those who are in any way racial / ethnic / religious minorities.

 

But then if we discuss the economy or geopolitics of like.. South Korea, there's no knee-jerk demand to preface all discussions with "but we acknowledge it is a BAD country, right? Sure, you can discuss South Korea... but you're going to admit it's an authoritarian country.. RIGHT?". And you don't do so because you've been indoctrinated to view South Korea as an "ally" to your country versus the narrative China is an "enemy".

 

Should one take your refusal to disclaimer discussions of k-pop (a $$$ issue) or South Korea as a whole with explicit declaration that you know South Korea to be bad as then... you endorsing these realities?

 

That you support people being jailed for years for smoking weed? Stigma against both mental illness and Western-style medicine? Forced conscription that violates agency? That being gay is such a taboo that you can't name a single openly gay music star and that gays are denied key rights? The open harassment of Muslim minorities? Its recent history as a military dictatorship?

 

I think you would think that's a bit silly and wouldn't think those realities are relevant to whether South Korea deserved to flourish as an economy or have its economy destabilized. I certainly would agree. 

You take out part of my response to make a point that doesn't align with what I said. The government of South Korea is not equivalent to the CCP, and I reject your false equivalence. In my post I talked a lot about censorship and the banning of LGBT issues from public life - those things are not happening in S Korea, at least not in 2023. Yet you edited that part out.

 

But LGBT issues are not a good point of comparison here because they're all dealing with a similar kind of Confucian repression, as you say. You can't use this issue to frame the CCP as benign and comparable to South Korea or Japan because it is simply not representative of the broader set of issues. Sadly, it is kind of irrelevant to mainstream politics in all of the above countries. 

It's not that you have to frame every point with 'the CCP is bad'. It's that when asked directly about things like the Uyghur genocide, you obfuscate and deflect. You do whataboutisms and jump to US human rights abuses. You consistently frame China as a victim of US imperialism, or make it equivalent in its actions to its neighbors or to the West. You behave almost exactly the way Chinese state media & party spokesmen do, frankly.

 

But it's not equivalent. South Korea is not constantly positioning istelf to invade a neighboring country, nor does it have an active genocide, nor is it the most repressive country in the world in terms of internet & free speech restrictions.

 

To continue on the Korea example, if we were talking in the 1970s and you asked me to condemn Korean authoritarianism for the absolute shameful abuses that were occurring during that time, I'd happily do so. Would I say 'but what about the Vietnam War!!!!? No. It's not either or and shouldn't be here either.

I don't disagree with your economic points, because unlike some users in the posted early this thread I genuinely want Chinese people to flourish. I think you'd do well to try and make a better distinction between the economic flourishing of Chinese people and the authoritarian abuses of the CCP - we do not need both.

[45seconds]

The last time two dictators joined forces one of them didn’t leave a bunker alive 

[jqnetto]

USA is over. 

[rowlet]

me visiting politics threads to watch communion fight with people

[DAP]

On 3/22/2023 at 1:56 PM, Horizon Flame said:

The US is NOT evil. You don’t know what true evil is until you’ve spoken to people who have escaped dictatorships and atrocities. 

Regimes/campaigns that were backed by the US government btw 

[#Beautiful]

the 3 cancers of the planet

[blackoutbaby]

If US comes under attack I’ll just move somewhere safer, like Alaska!

[Qudron]

America's own fault, with all the gen X officials in office who never got out of their cold-war mindset, hellbent on taking down Russia and any socialist/communist country like China at all costs. Will gladly send their country into a energy crisis, food crisis and bank crisis to prop up Ukraine and Taiwan 

[A.R.L]

On 3/22/2023 at 4:33 PM, Cain said:

They’re sick of racism

Racists but at least they have the environment you need to create a stable life, good luck having that especially as a gay person in Russia and China. 

[jijie101]

China is just using Russia lol. They are not allies by any means.

[jijie101]

China is just using Russia lol. They are not allies by any means.

[Cloudy]

I'm here for all three ending each other

[worldwide angel]

if only they weren't just as evil  

 

 

[suburbannature]

On 3/23/2023 at 4:33 PM, wastedpotential said:

No, actually, if you're only going to count the elections where there was full suffrage, that's 2/16, since the first three instances of a president winning despite losing the popular vote were in the 19th century. That's still an uncomfortably high rate, sure, but it's not nearly as high as you make it out to be.

 

And if you're going to rag on US elections for not being open to all voters from the very beginning you should at least consider that the US was one of the first countries to bother conducting elections in the first place and as such has a very long history of elections that many other democracies don't (and those that do have a similarly long history also have just as long of a history of blocking women and minorities from voting) 

 

Canada blocked voters of colour until 1960, Aboriginal Australians couldn't vote until 1962, France and Switzerland blocked women from voting until the 50s or the 70s 

 

Plus, I don't get why you're bringing up this point. Today in 2023, elections in the US are open to every adult who isn't a felon (which is still very much an issue given the sheer number of people convicted of felonies for petty drug use), and the history really does not matter since those intolerable restrictions have been changed. 

 

The US is certainly a flawed democracy now given the two-party FPTP/SMD system that could and should be changed (as well as the electoral college, obviously), but it's not a total sham democracy like the ones seen in Russia. If only China bothered with elections, then we could point out how fraudulent they are as well. 

 

Plus, as far as representative democracies go, the US primary election system is quite unique and is highly democratic, as there are very few countries in the world where the people select the candidates for each party before the general election on such a wide scale. Allowing the people to pick from a wide field of candidates from each party, and then allowing the people to pick between the candidates of each party is very democratic, especially compared to Russia or China. 

 

EDIT: and I don't think the US is really considered a beacon of democracy anymore. It was certainly one of the first full democracies, but there are several systems much better implemented, like the German system or the French System (where the people's will is more directly heard) upon which most new democracies base their constitutions. 

 

On 3/23/2023 at 9:24 PM, Harrier said:

You take out part of my response to make a point that doesn't align with what I said. The government of South Korea is not equivalent to the CCP, and I reject your false equivalence. In my post I talked a lot about censorship and the banning of LGBT issues from public life - those things are not happening in S Korea, at least not in 2023. Yet you edited that part out.

 

But LGBT issues are not a good point of comparison here because they're all dealing with a similar kind of Confucian repression, as you say. You can't use this issue to frame the CCP as benign and comparable to South Korea or Japan because it is simply not representative of the broader set of issues. Sadly, it is kind of irrelevant to mainstream politics in all of the above countries. 

It's not that you have to frame every point with 'the CCP is bad'. It's that when asked directly about things like the Uyghur genocide, you obfuscate and deflect. You do whataboutisms and jump to US human rights abuses. You consistently frame China as a victim of US imperialism, or make it equivalent in its actions to its neighbors or to the West. You behave almost exactly the way Chinese state media & party spokesmen do, frankly.

 

But it's not equivalent. South Korea is not constantly positioning istelf to invade a neighboring country, nor does it have an active genocide, nor is it the most repressive country in the world in terms of internet & free speech restrictions.

 

To continue on the Korea example, if we were talking in the 1970s and you asked me to condemn Korean authoritarianism for the absolute shameful abuses that were occurring during that time, I'd happily do so. Would I say 'but what about the Vietnam War!!!!? No. It's not either or and shouldn't be here either.

I don't disagree with your economic points, because unlike some users in the posted early this thread I genuinely want Chinese people to flourish. I think you'd do well to try and make a better distinction between the economic flourishing of Chinese people and the authoritarian abuses of the CCP - we do not need both.

 

[Communion]

On 3/23/2023 at 4:33 PM, wastedpotential said:

Plus, as far as representative democracies go, the US primary election system is quite unique and is highly democratic

Sis, I missed this post, but thank god @suburbannature bumped the thread, because I needed a good laugh. 

 

The last 8 years have shown the primary system within the US to be completely the antithesis to democracy, with Democrats flat out saying the Democratic Party is a private organization with no duties to actually respect the results of elections / primaries and just doing that. Any progressive can see such. 

 

I mean, how do you have a primary that looks like this:

But then the candidate with least amount of support wins because he has the most support amongst state-media (*gasp*) and political elites (*gasp*) and corporate oligarchs? How does a country see 80% of its population support a policy like universal healthcare, but the majority of its two right-wing parties block it because it would harm the profit margins of their private, for-profit health insurance companies?

 

I don't mean to **** on your "GOD BLESS THE RED, WHITE AND BLUE!!!" manifesto (or the "West is Best!!" thing the user trying to decipher which countries are good vs bad via their proximity to America), but it just reveals a completely privileged point of view unearned from experiencing any material struggles.

 

I get we're coming from two different places when you go "why even bring up [American democracy]???" because you apparently can't see the point that it requires an immense body of privilege to place value in something as abstract as """democracy""". Something you apparently hold in high regard. 

 

"America has elections! Unlike other countries!". And what does the US have to show for it? 

"Well at least you can RUN FOR OFFICE and try to make things you hate better". Oh really?

"A vote in a sham election is still a vote!". This is why these poetics about the wonders about Western politics as inherently "better" and "the good side" require lofty, middle class biases.

 

I'm sure many of y'all are being sincere when clutching your chest in horror when seeing other Americans say America is a horrible country where people are justified to view as condemnable and that democracy is a meaningless abstract concept. 

 

"Well [x country] don't even have elections". And? A majority of poor Americans don't even vote in elections! And they overwhelmingly do so by choice! A conscious decision that neither of the evils are actually less than! 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Communion

[Letemtalk]

Evil vs Evil

 

All three countries have no respect for human rights
All three countries have political prisoners, in some cases imprisoning foreign nationals who committed no crime in that country. e.g. Julian Assange.

All three countries persecute their minority groups, often with large numbers in jail, although one stands out in the imprisonment statistics.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/incarceration-rates-by-country

 

[znake]

All 3 countries are trash 

 

My country remains better place to live