Harrier Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 I agree with @Communion that China should not apologize for pursuing its own economic prosperity & that we need to be careful in being too comfortable positioning the US as de facto world leader. China's prosperity is good for humanity and for the world. Hundreds of millions - literally whole generations of people, have been lifted out of poverty and given better lives because of China's strides forward in the last 40 years. It is one of the greatest accomplishments ever in human history, the pace that China has defeated poverty and brought better quality of life to its unmatched number of citizens. And it should continue down that path, including by resisting US containment when there is overreach, as there often is. That said, you can argue everything I said above and do so while acknowledging that China is also a terrible authoritarian ethnostate that crushes dissent, free speech, queer people and ethnic minorities. You'll be okay in China if you're a cis, straight, irreligious Han Chinese person willing to abide by some tough, authoritarian rules and work within the system. But what about the 10s of millions of Chinese citizens that don't fall into that category? What about the people of Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau? What about people who are being kept in poverty by those same rules that have helped others? The consistent refusal to acknowledge these facts about China by deflecting and doing whataboutisms looks like foolishness. There is just no need to play defense for an immeasurably powerful regime. Acknowledge reality and people won't react to you with such hostility.
Bethenny Frankel Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 Are we shocked a certain user is defending the CCP?
Attitude Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 All governments are evil. Instead of helping their own people they spend billions of dollars on pointless pissing contests.
GipJo Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 Hmm, what's with all the ''gays can't openly live in China'' conspiracy? China is not Europe but it's certainly not Russia or middle east. I.E. you can appoint your gay partner to be your legal guardian in China.
Harrier Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 51 minutes ago, GipJo said: Hmm, what's with all the ''gays can't openly live in China'' conspiracy? China is not Europe but it's certainly not Russia or middle east. I.E. you can appoint your gay partner to be your legal guardian in China. The CCP supresses LGBT issues, including queer media. Making new content isn't legal, and existing content is heavily censored. Plus, many Chinese people are very socially conservative and it's challenging for queer people to live freely, law aside, because of powerful societal and familial pressure. I will grant you it is not physically dangerous to be gay in China or indeed anywhere in East Asia. In fact it's safer than it is in the West. Gay bashings etc don't happen. That's a huge thing that shouldn't be discounted. You're right to say its a lot better than Russia or the ME in this regard. But it's still very repressive. You might get by as an expat or a rich person, but its tough out there for native Chinese queer people, especially of lower socioeconomic status. Even among the rich, I have a mega wealthy Chinese expat friend who is gay as hell (like strictly a bottom, all that) but is soon getting married to a woman because of that pressure. It's really sad honestly.
Pendulum Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 9 hours ago, AMIT said: Are you implying that this isn't also a thing on Capitalist countries? At least in Communist ones the people in line are waiting for their FREE BREAD. FREE BREAD until the bread runs out and you're still at the bottom of the queue. The quantity of bread depended on how big your family is. One bread for a WEEK. How ******* dense and insensitive are you? I'm sure you'd love queueing for hours in the freezing winter for a minuscule slice of bread. Not to mention the cheap and questionable ingredients and additives to stretch out the production.
HEAVYONIT Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 10 hours ago, AMIT said: The US is not a democracy though. y'all keep gobbling up that propaganda and forget to think for yourselves, I fear Judging from your posts in here it looks like you're so far down the rabbit hole that you cant decipher from whats true and false
vale9001 Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 (edited) all the china and russia fans here to act savage and contrarians when the only reason you can say your sexual orientation is some letter of the alphabet is the individualist and capitalistic world of view with which america has shaped the west civilitation. Edited March 23, 2023 by vale9001
GipJo Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 3 hours ago, Harrier said: The CCP supresses LGBT issues, including queer media. Making new content isn't legal, and existing content is heavily censored. Plus, many Chinese people are very socially conservative and it's challenging for queer people to live freely, law aside, because of powerful societal and familial pressure. I will grant you it is not physically dangerous to be gay in China or indeed anywhere in East Asia. In fact it's safer than it is in the West. Gay bashings etc don't happen. That's a huge thing that shouldn't be discounted. You're right to say its a lot better than Russia or the ME in this regard. But it's still very repressive. You might get by as an expat or a rich person, but its tough out there for native Chinese queer people, especially of lower socioeconomic status. Even among the rich, I have a mega wealthy Chinese expat friend who is gay as hell (like strictly a bottom, all that) but is soon getting married to a woman because of that pressure. It's really sad honestly. Societal pressure is not government's mistake, even if CCP want to push that agenda forward (they don't), the general public is not that forward with it. I'm not saying the censorship is good, China back in the days (00s) was very open about lgbt issues actually, it's just Xi and his agenda to keep birth rate not dropping like a rock. For me personally, societal pressure is a social construct you can overcome with better education and world view, once you're free of the old idea of ''family is bigger than individual'', it's very easy to live in China as a gay person.
Peroxide Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 7 hours ago, Harrier said: I agree with @Communion that China should not apologize for pursuing its own economic prosperity & that we need to be careful in being too comfortable positioning the US as de facto world leader. China's prosperity is good for humanity and for the world. Hundreds of millions - literally whole generations of people, have been lifted out of poverty and given better lives because of China's strides forward in the last 40 years. It is one of the greatest accomplishments ever in human history, the pace that China has defeated poverty and brought better quality of life to its unmatched number of citizens. And it should continue down that path, including by resisting US containment when there is overreach, as there often is. That said, you can argue everything I said above and do so while acknowledging that China is also a terrible authoritarian ethnostate that crushes dissent, free speech, queer people and ethnic minorities. You'll be okay in China if you're a cis, straight, irreligious Han Chinese person willing to abide by some tough, authoritarian rules and work within the system. But what about the 10s of millions of Chinese citizens that don't fall into that category? What about the people of Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau? What about people who are being kept in poverty by those same rules that have helped others? The consistent refusal to acknowledge these facts about China by deflecting and doing whataboutisms looks like foolishness. There is just no need to play defense for an immeasurably powerful regime. Acknowledge reality and people won't react to you with such hostility. Put far more eloquently than myself! Great take.
Communion Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, Harrier said: ......while acknowledging that China is also a terrible 38 minutes ago, Peroxide said: Put far more eloquently than myself! Great take. 14 hours ago, Communion said: Because what you're doing is the equivalent of conservatives accusing gay people of being pedophiles, someone correcting the record that the existence of such (pedophiles who happen to be gay) wouldn't be relevant to an actual discussion of gay rights, and the conservative then going "oh so you won't admit pedophilia is bad? Interesting". - "America is trying to stifle the Chinese economy and there's no explanation for it besides America desiring total global domination." You: "But China bad...right?" - "That's not really my call to make nor relevant to whether the US is right to try and destabilize the Chinese economy" You: "Ah...so you WANT China to be bad..." People cite this reactionary demand to center morality in geopolitical discussions because it is so clearly uneven and not coming from a place of objectivity, even when I think you genuinely believe in your heart of hearts that you're earnestly advocating for good-intended causes. Even two posts down, you concede that China is not a physically dangerous place to be gay, and that the vast majority of issues that impact Chinese people are largely universal forms of suppression across East Asia, ie: pharmaceuticals being taboo, being gay being at odds with social conservatism, hostility and societal mistreatment of those who are in any way racial / ethnic / religious minorities. But then if we discuss the economy or geopolitics of like.. South Korea, there's no knee-jerk demand to preface all discussions with "but we acknowledge it is a BAD country, right? Sure, you can discuss South Korea... but you're going to admit it's an authoritarian country.. RIGHT?". And you don't do so because you've been indoctrinated to view South Korea as an "ally" to your country versus the narrative China is an "enemy". Should one take your refusal to disclaimer discussions of k-pop (a $$$ issue) or South Korea as a whole with explicit declaration that you know South Korea to be bad as then... you endorsing these realities? That you support people being jailed for years for smoking weed? Stigma against both mental illness and Western-style medicine? Forced conscription that violates agency? That being gay is such a taboo that you can't name a single openly gay music star and that gays are denied key rights? The open harassment of Muslim minorities? Its recent history as a military dictatorship? I think you would think that's a bit silly and wouldn't think those realities are relevant to whether South Korea deserved to flourish as an economy or have its economy destabilized. I certainly would agree. Edited March 23, 2023 by Communion
Robert Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 The governments of all 3 of these countries need to just **** off.
byzantium Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 Why are so many people supporting Putin’s colonial invasion of Ukraine? If you support that, you are on the wrong side.
Riverbank Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 20 hours ago, Peroxide said: this sort of reads as you downplaying just how incredibly awful China and Russia truly are? Wouldn't be his first time
AMIT Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 3 hours ago, byzantium said: Why are so many people supporting Putin’s colonial invasion of Ukraine? If you support that, you are on the wrong side. please quote a single post that has that supposed support in here.
AMIT Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 7 hours ago, Black Jesus said: Judging from your posts in here it looks like you're so far down the rabbit hole that you cant decipher from whats true and false the irony and lack of self awareness keep believing the US and its corporations are on your side bb, you are in for a rude awakening
HEAVYONIT Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 1 hour ago, AMIT said: the irony and lack of self awareness keep believing the US and its corporations are on your side bb, you are in for a rude awakening Right. You're into QAnon too, aren't you? Feel free to move to Russia or China and then see how your life is
AMIT Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 10 minutes ago, Black Jesus said: Right. You're into QAnon too, aren't you? Feel free to move to Russia or China and then see how your life is Russia is not anywhere near Socialist/Communist you keep exposing yourself as not informed at all on the subject you are replying to, and for what?
HEAVYONIT Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 8 minutes ago, AMIT said: Russia is not anywhere near Socialist/Communist you keep exposing yourself as not informed at all on the subject you are replying to, and for what? Literally where did I ever say Russia was socialist or communist? I said AUTHORITARIAN. Stop embarrassing yourself in this thread.
AMIT Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 2 minutes ago, Black Jesus said: Literally where did I ever say Russia was socialist or communist? I said AUTHORITARIAN. Stop embarrassing yourself in this thread. and when did I say anything positive about Russia or China's current regimes? again, you are kidding yourself if you think the US is some role model for democracy, but go off
Bears01 Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 12 minutes ago, AMIT said: Russia is not anywhere near Socialist/Communist you keep exposing yourself as not informed at all on the subject you are replying to, and for what? They never said Russia is Socialist or Communist he said they’re authoritarian hellholes that literally enslaves people, kidnaps children, and throws minorities into concentration camps… Which is all true and basic facts
AMIT Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 1 minute ago, Bears01 said: They never said Russia is Socialist or Communist he said they’re authoritarian hellholes that literally enslaves people, kidnaps children, and throws minorities into concentration camps… Which is all true and basic facts I'm sure you think the US has nothing to do with Putin being in power, right? Keep drinking that neolib kool-aid sis
HEAVYONIT Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 30 minutes ago, AMIT said: and when did I say anything positive about Russia or China's current regimes? again, you are kidding yourself if you think the US is some role model for democracy, but go off You're suggesting the US is a sham democracy while providing zero evidence (because it's not), so it sounds like you've watched too many TikTok videos. Yes, corporations and dark money have an alarming influence in media which ultimately sways public opinion, but that doesn't make it not a democracy.
Communion Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 Just now, Black Jesus said: You're suggesting the US is a sham democracy while providing zero evidence Quickly- how many leaders have been elected in the US despite not receiving the most votes?
HEAVYONIT Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Communion said: Quickly- how many leaders have been elected in the US despite not receiving the most votes? I'm pretty knowledgeable in US History/Government. The answer is many, unfortunately, but that's because of the electoral college...not because elections are corrupt/bought out, and that's only presidential elections. Representatives are elected democratically. Edited March 23, 2023 by Black Jesus
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