Do you believe in the right to self defense?

[Ash12345]

@Timber@HeavyMetalAura @GentleEarthquake @JanStan @Zoomer @loveisdead9582 @dussel_06 @Devin @liver @perpetual novice 

 

I forgot to mention you live in the utopian nation of Canada. You are now charge with second degree murder after shooting and killing one of the intruders. Since you are behind bars, your mother has to sleep at home alone not knowing if the three men still on the loose will return to try to silence her. Meanwhile you wonder how you will pay your legal bills since you are no longer able to work while in custody. Even if you are found not guilty, you will not be allowed to own a firearm again.

 

 

Although I added a few made up details to make things more story-like, the fundamental facts are the same as in a recent home invasion that occurred last Sunday.

 

22 year old Ali Mian was living in a subdivision in the outlying Toronto suburb of Milton, Ontario (1), along with his mother, a teacher, and at least one tenant (3). At 5am, Sunday, February 19, a group of men broke into his home and attacked his mother (1). A licensed firearm owner, he fatally shot one of the men (1). According to his lawyer, he did not fire and other shots and did not intend to kill anyone, only to protect his mother (1). Neighbours say 3 other shots were fired after the first one (1), possibly by the intruders?

 

A few days prior to the break-in, some people were spotted snooping around the property and caught on a backyard camera, but they dissuaded and left after a dog began barking at them (1). This resulted to a call to police (2).

 

Ali Mian, who is a licensed firearms owner, has been charged with one count of second degree murder (1). One of the intruders, Romario Clarke, age 20, has been caught by police on the scene and charged with break-and-enter and unauthorized possession of a firearm (1). The three remaining intruders fled the scene in a Dodge Charger and the police are still looking for them (1).

 

There are no statutory limits on murder charges in Canada (4). There have been clear instances of self-defense when the person defending themselves spent months in custody before being released, and people accused of murder almost always get released only with a no guns clause, meaning Ali Mian's ability to defend himself from the men still on the loose will be limited (4).

 

 

1) https://globalnews.ca/news/9500284/milton-man-charged-murder-shot-intruder-break-in-lawyer-says/

2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c-ynS-c-88&ab_channel=CHCHNews

3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmo8zzPcDFQ&t=1s&ab_channel=CTVNews
4) 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Ash12345

[Karla Cabello]

do you believe in love after love 

[loveisdead9582]

I have commented before in a case of self defense in the USA. The comments made were in reference to legalities in that state/country. I do feel that if every attempt is made to convince a home intruder to leave, and you alert them that lethal force will be used if they do not leave the premises, you should have the right to defend your home against hostile “invaders”. I do feel that every possible effort should be made before even attempting anything that could be considered ‘lethal force’. Any sort of force should be a last resort, but if they do not leave or continue on then you do what you need to do. I don’t believe that shooting someone or killing someone should ever be the first option; that said, if you give them every opportunity to leave and they continue to press on and advance then protecting yourself (and your family/loved ones if applicable) then you do what you have to do. 
 

Situations like this are why I feel that having surveillance cameras (at least outside your home) are necessary. To clarify, I mean surveillance cameras of your own installation and control. I don’t want anyone spying on me in my home but if I record anything happening outside it is only a benefit to any situation I may have. 
 

Also, @Ash12345 I live in the USA. Canadian laws do not apply to me. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by loveisdead9582
Clarification.

[Devin]

4 minutes ago, loveisdead9582 said:

Also, @Ash12345 I live in the USA. Canadian laws do not apply to me. 

[2]

[loveisdead9582]

3 minutes ago, Devin said:

[2]

Currently at work at cannot view the link. I think I made myself clear in that I believe lethal force should be a last resort. I believe that there are multiple systemic failures that have contributed to B&E and other crimes routinely committed 

[Zoomer]

15 hours ago, Ash12345 said:

@Timber@HeavyMetalAura @GentleEarthquake @JanStan @Zoomer @loveisdead9582 @dussel_06 @Devin @liver @perpetual novice 

I

 

A few days prior to the break-in, some people were spotted snooping around the property and caught on a backyard camera, but they dissuaded and left after a dog began barking at them (1). This resulted to a call to police (2).

 

Ali Mian, who is a licensed firearms owner, has been charged with one count of second degree murder (1). One of the intruders, Romario Clarke, age 20, has been caught by police on the scene and charged with break-and-enter and unauthorized possession of a firearm (1). The three remaining intruders fled the scene in a Dodge Charger and the police are still looking for them (1).

 

There are no statutory limits on murder charges in Canada (4). There have been clear instances of self-defense when the person defending themselves spent months in custody before being released, and people accused of murder almost always get released only with a no guns clause, meaning Ali Mian's ability to defend himself from the men still on the loose will be limited (4).

 

 

1) https://globalnews.ca/news/9500284/milton-man-charged-murder-shot-intruder-break-in-lawyer-says/

2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c-ynS-c-88&ab_channel=CHCHNews

3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmo8zzPcDFQ&t=1s&ab_channel=CTVNews
4) 

 

 

How mad, I’m glad that I don’t live in Canada. Still, DEATH to the intruders. 

[Ash12345]

16 hours ago, loveisdead9582 said:

I have commented before in a case of self defense in the USA. The comments made were in reference to legalities in that state/country. I do feel that if every attempt is made to convince a home intruder to leave, and you alert them that lethal force will be used if they do not leave the premises, you should have the right to defend your home against hostile “invaders”. I do feel that every possible effort should be made before even attempting anything that could be considered ‘lethal force’. Any sort of force should be a last resort, but if they do not leave or continue on then you do what you need to do. I don’t believe that shooting someone or killing someone should ever be the first option; that said, if you give them every opportunity to leave and they continue to press on and advance then protecting yourself (and your family/loved ones if applicable) then you do what you have to do. 
 

Situations like this are why I feel that having surveillance cameras (at least outside your home) are necessary. To clarify, I mean surveillance cameras of your own installation and control. I don’t want anyone spying on me in my home but if I record anything happening outside it is only a benefit to any situation I may have. 
 

Also, @Ash12345 I live in the USA. Canadian laws do not apply to me. 

I think it depends on the context. If you have someone looking around in your yard, I definitely wouldn't treat it as a shoot first ask questions later type of situation. There's a chance they might just be looking for a dog that ran away or something harmless like that. 

 

But in a situation like this where there's people that are clearly up to no good, and creating a dangerous situation that you never asked to be any part of, then if that backfires on them, it's on them. Anyone who is committing armed robbery is making the decision that they don't give a **** about endangering the lives of innocent people. I don't think you should be risking your life to protect criminals who don't care about your wellbeing, that just doesn't seem fair. Even the police who have training and are paid for the work they do aren't expected to risk their lives in crazy ways and are allowed to put their safety ahead of criminals endangering them.

 

When you're in a situation like this where you're outmanned and at a power disadvantage, "negotiating" isn't going to be the most viable option. The best option imo is to hide or flee, since your personal safety should take priority over personal belongings. However if you're trapped and not able to hide or flee, that option gets taken off the table, which seems to be what happened here (with the mother getting attacked). 

 

I guess you could just do what they tell you, let them tie you up and gag you up and hope they don't do anything else. But that's a lot of trust to put in criminals you don't know and who might try to "send a message" not to talk to police and silence you as witnesses. The other option, which is what I suspect Ali Mian chose, is to use the effect of surprise to catch the criminals off guard and hope they flee because they weren't prepared to have to deal with an armed resident. These sorts of criminals were probably hoping to get some easy money and they're not willing to risk their lives over a few thousand dollars or stuff. From Ali's POV, both the "submit" and the "fight back" options are risky, it's a tough call and he doesn't have much time to think about it, so I don't fault him for whatever he chose to do.

 

I agree that cameras recording the incident can be useful to prove your innocence if something goes down.

 

I think Ali Mian will ultimately not be convicted, but it does feel like the legal system is "overcharging" and it seems distasteful to do that to a family that's just been through a tough moment and put them through the stress and expenses of a murder trial (including jail time while awaiting trial) for defending themselves.

[Kamil24]

17 hours ago, Ash12345 said:

@Timber@HeavyMetalAura @GentleEarthquake @JanStan @Zoomer @loveisdead9582 @dussel_06 @Devin @liver @perpetual novice 

 

I forgot to mention you live in the utopian nation of Canada. You are now charge with second degree murder after shooting and killing one of the intruders. Since you are behind bars, your mother has to sleep at home alone not knowing if the three men still on the loose will return to try to silence her. Meanwhile you wonder how you will pay your legal bills since you are no longer able to work while in custody. Even if you are found not guilty, you will not be allowed to own a firearm again.

 

 

Although I added a few made up details to make things more story-like, the fundamental facts are the same as in a recent home invasion that occurred last Sunday.

 

22 year old Ali Mian was living in a subdivision in the outlying Toronto suburb of Milton, Ontario (1), along with his mother, a teacher, and at least one tenant (3). At 5am, Sunday, February 19, a group of men broke into his home and attacked his mother (1). A licensed firearm owner, he fatally shot one of the men (1). According to his lawyer, he did not fire and other shots and did not intend to kill anyone, only to protect his mother (1). Neighbours say 3 other shots were fired after the first one (1), possibly by the intruders?

 

A few days prior to the break-in, some people were spotted snooping around the property and caught on a backyard camera, but they dissuaded and left after a dog began barking at them (1). This resulted to a call to police (2).

 

Ali Mian, who is a licensed firearms owner, has been charged with one count of second degree murder (1). One of the intruders, Romario Clarke, age 20, has been caught by police on the scene and charged with break-and-enter and unauthorized possession of a firearm (1). The three remaining intruders fled the scene in a Dodge Charger and the police are still looking for them (1).

 

There are no statutory limits on murder charges in Canada (4). There have been clear instances of self-defense when the person defending themselves spent months in custody before being released, and people accused of murder almost always get released only with a no guns clause, meaning Ali Mian's ability to defend himself from the men still on the loose will be limited (4).

 

 

1) https://globalnews.ca/news/9500284/milton-man-charged-murder-shot-intruder-break-in-lawyer-says/

2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c-ynS-c-88&ab_channel=CHCHNews

3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmo8zzPcDFQ&t=1s&ab_channel=CTVNews
4) 

 

 

Canada is so awful sometimes. That poor guy from Milton... so unfair  

[loveisdead9582]

9 hours ago, Ash12345 said:

I think it depends on the context. If you have someone looking around in your yard, I definitely wouldn't treat it as a shoot first ask questions later type of situation. There's a chance they might just be looking for a dog that ran away or something harmless like that. 

This. Context is very important. I finally had a moment that made me feel old AF when I had to tell some door to door evangelists to “get off my property”. Situations like that do not at all require any sort of lethal force. Someone snooping around or looking around, also no. If  an intruder has broken into your house  however, that is a different story. Context is essential. If you break into my home and could potentially be armed… safety first. 

[Theshigo Washidu]

Shoot them? No way I can stand around and watch my mother be harmed.

[Riverbank]

 

Without a second thought

[Saddy]

On 2/22/2023 at 4:06 AM, Devin said:

Anyone breaking in my crib is getting shot. No ifs, ands, buts, or semantics.

 

+ they have guns too and 99.9% won’t care about shooting me or my parent so 

[dumbsparce]

Shoot them and hope I won't rot in jail.

Edited March 7, 2023 by dumbsparce

[Protocol]

It does not matter what a government says or what the laws are. You are a living, breathing creature that God put on this Earth. You have an inherent, divine right to your own self-preservation through any means necessary. You have a right to LIVE. If that means shooting the **** out of those motherfuckers, so be it. I would rather be judged by a jury than carried in a coffin.

 

 

[Katamari]

On 2/22/2023 at 2:06 AM, Devin said:

Anyone breaking in my crib is getting shot. No ifs, ands, buts, or semantics.

 

+ they have guns too and 99.9% won’t care about shooting me or my parent so 

pretty much 

 

is there a debate here or?  

[PoisonPill]

The scenario provided is too extreme for a real debate when everyone agrees  

[GhostBox]

19 hours ago, Protocol said:

It does not matter what a government says or what the laws are. You are a living, breathing creature that God put on this Earth. You have an inherent, divine right to your own self-preservation through any means necessary. You have a right to LIVE. If that means shooting the **** out of those motherfuckers, so be it. I would rather be judged by a jury than carried in a coffin.

 

 

👏🏼