She Spent Two Years Writing for an Acclaimed Album — and Made Only $4,000

[Into The Void]

4 hours ago, Delirious said:

$250k = 100 million spotify streams

 

better off = 130m streams

 

total money = $257,500

 

40% = $100,000

 

She's supposed to receive $100,000 if she gets 40% of the revenue from Better Off

 

Im guessing her label snatches 60% of the profits

Interesting but streams don't just end u continue accumulating streams over time so I guess u would get continuous payouts for each song right

Edited February 19, 2023 by Insanity

[Miracle]

Working on a Brandy album in 2022 is basically doing charity work, this woman should have known better and ask for a monthly salary or just not do it.

 

This woman is kinda set for (a modest) decade with her 10% on thank u, next tho

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by Miracle

[Delirious]

16 minutes ago, Insanity said:

Interesting but streams don't just end u continue accumulating streams over time so I guess u would get continuous payouts for each song right

yea streams usuaully get paid monthly if youre a small artist but weekly if youre a big artist (sometimes even daily)

[rzal]

What a weird article  Of course a Brandy album in 2020 is not gonna make any money. A flop album in 1991 would generate the same revenue for her  

[OrgVisual]

The clickbait title

Who would expect it to be a freaking Brandy album after reading that title?

[Theshigo Washidu]

God, the industry is so dirty.

If this AI thing ever takes off, it really is game over.

[Rev8]

Yea..the music industry is less lucrative than b4

yet it reportedly is reaching the same heights as it did in 2000 ...does that show how streaming is giving less?

or how money is spread more thoroughly around artists (since it's much easier to be a musician now, you have a platform where u can promote and earn money etc)

 

So yea..no wonder artists Suddenly started "writing" more of their stuff

lbr, at least half of the act are taking credits without doing much/anything - we've had several controversies over big acts too

 

Also, I understand ppl saying "work harder" (like, 1 song to be set for life?)

but yea, it's odd for it to be a huge project and to earn that little..

Labels are truly a b*tch

 

 

12 hours ago, Delirious said:

$250k = 100 million spotify streams

 

better off = 130m streams

 

total money = $257,500

 

40% = $100,000

 

She's supposed to receive $100,000 if she gets 40% of the revenue from Better Off

 

Im guessing her label snatches 60% of the profits

Tbh that's not even the full story

the streams probably come from different countries -> different countries give different kind of payoff (I heard it's depending on how many premium users (compared to country's registered users) are there)

like..northern EU has the highest percentage of payout (if streams come frm there) from what I've read

 

 

 

it's funny cuz BB puts certain amount of streams (1.5k?) = 1 sale

when it barely earns the artist (and co) - Half of the bought product

[Headlock]

16 hours ago, Communion said:

It's the publishing splits from the article. 

 

Kayden got 40%  Ariana got 10%. The three male producers then split 50% of the composition despite only Kaydence and Ariana writing the song. 

They wrote the music, that is songwriting as well 

[Communion]

1 hour ago, Headlock said:

They wrote the music, that is songwriting as well 

It's inaccurate to say that arranging and production have always been considered "songwriting".

 

If a producer can charge a fee to the label upfront, in exchange essentially for their master rights to the recording, this makes sense when comparing future revenues for artists vs producer. An artist can sell merch, tour, etc. A producer is limited, so getting some kind of advance for their work makes sense.

 

But.. producers get to profit from selling the master recording to the label in a way the songwriters don't because that is meant to be their compensation ddd. If a songwriter isn't entitled to master rights over the recording because melody and lyrics are legally "composition" and thus only entitles them to publishing rights, many have argued that arranging/producing is legally *not* composition and not part of the songwriting process. Are producers splitting the master payout they get to send the stems to the label with the songwriters?

 

You already don't see mixers and the like often be credited within songwriting. Emily Wright is the only recent biggish name I can think of for someone who has been credited for composition for their engineering because she has worked for years and has done songwriting in that time.

 

I think pop is unique in that, by nature of the commercial forces at play, everyone 'in the background' knows already this is 'work'. You don't bring 3 producers and 4 songwriters in a room to hang. They're workers brought in to create product. And so most people are fine with that collaborative setting and - as mentioned in the article - the "everyone in the room is credited" approach. 

 

My point is that producers have the largest, over-sized hand within the world of songcraft. You say "well they made the music" but Peter Lee Johnson is performing strings on "Better Off" yet he isn't being credited with publishing. And that's legal, because instrumentalists for example can instead work for a flat fee. But if, say, Hit-Boy "production" contribution is playing a drum pad... what makes that qualify for a songwriter or production credit in the way that performing the strings on the song, for example, does not?

 

So for Better Off, you have Kaydence who wrote the lyrics and melodies. Arianna as the artist who went in with Kaydence and changed lyrics to be more comfortable with the song. Peter is playing the strings. What did these 3 men do to justify having 50% of the total publishing accredited to them? That's the discussion.

 

Why isn't it 60/10/10/10/10, as opposed to a theoretical 40/16/16/16/10 for example? Is it because of the merits of the musical contributions or is it because Hit-Boy is a star producer and Kaydence is a nobody? That's the point I'm getting at. 

 

I'm not accusing you of doing this, but it's silly stan wars if someone can think "An artist is powerful and thus has the financial incentive to take credit from songwriters" but can't then imagine that producers, who often have leverage over songwriters, doing the same.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Communion

[Headlock]

2 hours ago, Communion said:

It's inaccurate to say that arranging and production have always been considered "songwriting".

 

If a producer can charge a fee to the label upfront, in exchange essentially for their master rights to the recording, this makes sense when comparing future revenues for artists vs producer. An artist can sell merch, tour, etc. A producer is limited, so getting some kind of advance for their work makes sense.

 

But.. producers get to profit from selling the master recording to the label in a way the songwriters don't because that is meant to be their compensation ddd. If a songwriter isn't entitled to master rights over the recording because melody and lyrics are legally "composition" and thus only entitles them to publishing rights, many have argued that arranging/producing is legally *not* composition and not part of the songwriting process. Are producers splitting the master payout they get to send the stems to the label with the songwriters?

 

You already don't see mixers and the like often be credited within songwriting. Emily Wright is the only recent biggish name I can think of for someone who has been credited for composition for their engineering because she has worked for years and has done songwriting in that time.

 

I think pop is unique in that, by nature of the commercial forces at play, everyone 'in the background' knows already this is 'work'. You don't bring 3 producers and 4 songwriters in a room to hang. They're workers brought in to create product. And so most people are fine with that collaborative setting and - as mentioned in the article - the "everyone in the room is credited" approach. 

 

My point is that producers have the largest, over-sized hand within the world of songcraft. You say "well they made the music" but Peter Lee Johnson is performing strings on "Better Off" yet he isn't being credited with publishing. And that's legal, because instrumentalists for example can instead work for a flat fee. But if, say, Hit-Boy "production" contribution is playing a drum pad... what makes that qualify for a songwriter or production credit in the way that performing the strings on the song, for example, does not?

 

So for Better Off, you have Kaydence who wrote the lyrics and melodies. Arianna as the artist who went in with Kaydence and changed lyrics to be more comfortable with the song. Peter is playing the strings. What did these 3 men do to justify having 50% of the total publishing accredited to them? That's the discussion.

 

Why isn't it 60/10/10/10/10, as opposed to a theoretical 40/16/16/16/10 for example? Is it because of the merits of the musical contributions or is it because Hit-Boy is a star producer and Kaydence is a nobody? That's the point I'm getting at. 

 

I'm not accusing you of doing this, but it's silly stan wars if someone can think "An artist is powerful and thus has the financial incentive to take credit from songwriters" but can't then imagine that producers, who often have leverage over songwriters, doing the same.

Sis, they wrote the music, that is songwriting, and they 100% deserve credit for doing do. Ariana and this other girl are only credited with writing lyrics in Sweetener’s album booklet 

[Communion]

Just now, Headlock said:

they wrote the music, that is songwriting

Give Peter Lee Johnson his credit

[Headlock]

9 minutes ago, Communion said:

Give Peter Lee Johnson his credit

Girl, this is the definition of being pedantic and you know it 

He played strings on a recording, he didn’t compose the music and lyrics of the song. He was a session musician.

The farthest you could stretch this would be a potential additional or co-production credit for his work, if he actually did that with his strong contributions, which he didn’t.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Headlock

[Communion]

51 minutes ago, Headlock said:

Girl, this is the definition of being pedantic and you know it 

He played strings on a recording, he didn’t compose the music and lyrics of the song. He was a session musician.

The farthest you could stretch this would be a potential additional or co-production credit for his work, if he actually did that with his strong contributions, which he didn’t.

I'm not sure what you're trying to articulate when suggesting my example would be pedantic crediting when my point is that credits have long been pedantic business negotiations that often aren't about composition.

 

You're usually reasonable on most matters, so I'm not sure why you are putting forward things no one is saying. For example, when you say this:

1 hour ago, Headlock said:

they 100% deserve credit for doing do

You give the impression that I have said they shouldn't be credited as songwriters at all.

But I didn't say that? In the post you quoted, I literally have them being credited:

3 hours ago, Communion said:

Why isn't it 60/10/10/10/10, as opposed to a theoretical 40/16/16/16/10 for example?

So while obviously I love to argue, I would rather not waste our time on someone who's normally reasonable deciding on an incorrect reading of my post that - ironically - feels like it relies on pedantry.

 

"Production is writing music too" doesn't contradict or answer to any point I raised in my post.

 

The point I'm making is about the *leverage* producers have over songwriters where arranging a track is expected to be seen as composition even if the producer has not actually written any music themselves.

 

Yet those who write the lyrics and the top-line melody face issues like - as one examples- not getting a cut of the payout for the track even if work they have done has been crucial to building the sound recording, which has been articulated by many songwriters, including female songwriters. This further complicates talks of money, especially if then producer fees have to first be recouped before publishing is paid out.

 

So the reality is that if you want to look at why songwriters seem to be making so little, you can look at labels, artists, etc., but also at why producers are making so much more. That's not an odd observation. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Communion

[Headlock]

1 hour ago, Communion said:

but also at why producers are making so much more. That's not an odd observation. 

It is, however, not the subject of this thread, in which a songwriter specifically mentioned pop stars taking credits without sufficient reason to do so, as well as the profession of songwriting not being as lucrative due to the rise of streaming and lessened impact of radio play.

 

You containing to try to shift the topic onto producers, which is frankly bordering on pure whataboutism at this point given that you stan Ari, is a separate discussion. Yes it is a part of the overall picture of decreasing royalties and financial stability in the music industry, but in this instance is not relevant due to the writer in question herself stating the producers also wrote the song as well before she top lined it. Your rhetorical breakdown of royalties continues to not take into account the question of why Ari was credited in the first place. Why not have her 10% added to the songwriters 40% in the first place, before then negotiating more credit from the other writers/producers?

[Communion]

1 hour ago, Headlock said:

It is not the subject of this thread, in which a songwriter specifically mentioned pop stars taking credits without sufficient reason to do so

Except the tweets I shared are Tayla Parx's response to Kaydence's accusation that Victoria and Tayla finessed her out of more points on thank u,next, yet it wasn't the fellow topliners taking the credit that Kaydence felt she deserved. 

 

You're making it clear *you* are being weird due to it being about Ariana now.

 

"The WRITER is speaking about the ARTIST getting credit for BEING IN THE ROOM so the only discussion is about the artist being a THIEF!!!" but the same writer also has other writers accusing *her* of wanting to be *credited for just being in the room* despite not originally being okay with that arrangement. Thus the point about how this is the reality of this "share the wealth" style of crediting - where Kaydence has both benefitted as 1 in a room of 7 yet still gets credited vs suffered in maybe being the reason for 90% of Better Off but, again, every hand that touches the record gets its share. Do you think Ariana should get 0% for her songwriting?

 

That you are only concerned with one because it involves Ariana...  If you wanna accuse Ariana Grande of something, please feel to do so, but you don't have to muddy up my quote notifications with random scolding in order to do so. Neither do you have to project onto me what you think the article is about and thus what I'm "allowed" to comment . 

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Communion

[La Reina]

On 2/18/2023 at 2:45 PM, Ryan said:

Brandy’s acclaimed 2020 album, B7, spending two years on a project that ended up leading to about $4,000 in income for her — a tiny fraction of what minimum-wage labor would’ve yielded over the same period of time.

And that one Brandy stan on here gets so brave for what? 

 

Anyways, this is sad. The streaming era has been horrible in terms of payouts. No wonder most big artists venture on to other industries. They spend much more than the music industry itself pays these days. But I remember TLC also was broke after their album smashed so maybe nothing's changed.

[Sombre]

22 hours ago, Aurora said:

She got $20k from an Ariana album track and is complaining? Gurl push your pen and stop complaining.  How you think you're gonna be able to buy a house off one album track?

She got $20k from a track she mostly (90%) wrote, but was credited 40%. I'd be hella ******* pressed too if someone stole my bag like that. That $20k would have at least been $40k had the producers not taken 50% of unearned credit. 

[Headlock]

6 hours ago, Communion said:

That you are only concerned with one because it involves Ariana... 

My response to you was regarding songwriting by producers because that was YOUR original point, which again, is a weird response to a thread involving your fav to go with the *look over here! What about THEM?* argument. So it’s deeply ironic you are saying I only care about this due to Ari when… that seems to be your objective 

 

6 hours ago, Communion said:

Neither do you have to project onto me what you think the article is about and thus what I'm "allowed" to comment . 

 

Sis, truly no offense, but this coming from you 

 

I’ve posted in numerous threads about a number of artists over the years about this topic, Ari and her songs being the topic of discussion is incidental.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Headlock

[Lovett]

On 2/18/2023 at 9:03 PM, R`0`K`R said:

All of this pails in comparison to the hundred of thousands Beyoncé has thieved from songwriters over her career.

It's always so fascinating seeing people come online and just outright lie, when literally everyone who has ever worked with her says the direct opposite.  She also credits people for sounds that vaguely resemble, even if it's not a direct sample or interpolation. Find another narrative already.

[Shelter]

Did she think she would much from Brandy 

[Shelter]

6 minutes ago, MrLovett said:

It's always so fascinating seeing people come online and just outright lie, when literally everyone who has ever worked with her says the direct opposite.  She also credits people for sounds that vaguely resemble, even if it's not a direct sample or interpolation. Find another narrative already.

He hates Bey. Xtina fan

[TouchinFree]

All the girls writing essays in this topic when she's writing for Brandy like - 

 

It's all in the contracts though. Obviously the producers, Composers , Artists, Labels and writers will all get a stake out of a song. Streaming services don't pay crap because they're simply existing to sell a PRODUCT. 

 

That writer complaining is equivalent to a person signing a contract for a company which pays $20 an hour then finding out the company itself makes $40 an hour from the person's hourly rate. Here's the deal though, YOU HAVE SIGNED. Either re negotiate or simply leave the company you work for or change industries to begin with. Head to court. This happens with every industry. I left my old job for the exact reason. 

[Taylor fanboy]

Damn, strictly lyricists+melodist songwriters are getting the worst end from the revenue of “songwriting”.

 

System is corrupt and rigged.

[Trent W]

These days the only way to make proper money with music is being the songwriter, producer and artist yourself and in an independent label.

 

Anything a big label touches rots.

 

Is better to be an indie with 100ks to few million plays, and tour.

 

Honestly is not worth signing a big label anymore,   no matter how much play listing reach they give you. You won’t see **** from them.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Trent W