Is It Time For Meat Eaters To Pay A Kill Tax?

[TouchinFree]

58 minutes ago, Yum said:

It's kinda childish to do the opposite just for the sake of it when all vegan activists are doing is saying "please don't cause the  unnecessary murder of a defenceless animal". 

 

Also as previously stated in the thread all nutrients that are in animal products can be consumed from plants so you could regain that health and strength with plant power should you so choose.

I know that. I was a vegetarian for about a good 5 years of my life because I hated the idea of meat. Now however it is being pushed and popularized as an agenda and I hate that. It's ok if you find it childish. Just don't push your agenda on me. 

[Bussea]

no

[Armani?]

17 minutes ago, Miss Show Business said:

 

 

 

Y'all are abhorrent human beings who lack a basic respect and decency l

The irony

[Miss Show Business]

4 minutes ago, Yum said:

Yeo

 

Lab grown meat wouldn't harm anyone so that's fine, as I said, go ahead and eat that when it hits store shelves.

 

I already admitted I'm no better than you, infact morally I'm probably worse than you. Regardless, as I stated previously this is not about us as individuals and our own moral positions this debate is on taxing meat 

 

POV: user says we took the bait then meltdowns like there's no tomorrow

 

Ironic really that you closed your statement saying I lack respect for other people, when the entire reason we're talking is because I not only respect everyone, but every being, including non-human animals. 

You literally called for "complete abolishment" in your post. I cannot believe how out of touch you are that you're saying these things and not seeing them as insanity.

 

This is a very "California" belief. Extremely out of touch and tone deaf to every day people. You need to accept that not everyone has the same beliefs as you, and that the goals you're stating are never going to be accomplished unless lab grown takes over completely, and this is literally a possibility and why I'm advocating for it so hard: it achieves BOTH of our goals. No, the research and methods aren't developed enough yet for it to take over, but I'm certain that this is the future.

 

Sorry, not sorry, but you're the reason there isn't going to be progress here. You say you're not being condescending, buy I'm telling you, you are.

 

That other user tried to say I wasn't being logically consistent to my beliefs - of course I wasn't, because unlike y'all, I understand this is a complex issue and not everybody has the same beliefs. I entered this conversation trying to reach a middle ground that all of us could be content with.

 

The millisecond you start talking about morality? You are telling everyone who enjoys meat that they are morally inferior to you. Even if you're not saying directly, by even talking about morality in this issue? That's what you're implying.

 

It would be one thing if you simply stated your personal moral beliefs, and then explained that because of this, you choose to be vegan, etc, but make it clear that it's a personal choice. You literally called for ABOLISHMENT! The second you try controlling other people's lives is where you lose everything.

 

I try to enter debates like this with respect. But in the end, my blood pressure only goes through the roof, because despite trying to be respectful and trying to offer solutions we all could agree with, I'm still being subjected to rants about personal morality implying that I'm an inferior person to you.

 

Y'all don't belong in debates if you cannot share your views without being condescending and inferring judgement on other people. It's disrespectful. Period.

 

Let's just agree to disagree and be done here, because it's clear this conversation with any of you isn't going to go anywhere.

 

I hope you all have a good night. 

 

[Luckitty]

vegan food is terrible AND expensive 

[Miss Show Business]

6 minutes ago, Armani? said:

The irony

Again, keep taking the bait. It's gold.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Miss Show Business said:

I hope you all have a good night. 

I'm not going to bother writing a book this time around as you appear to be spinning in circles with the same arguments much like that Britney gif but I'd like to address two things

 

3 minutes ago, Miss Show Business said:

The millisecond you start talking about morality? You are telling everyone who enjoys meat that they are morally inferior to you. Even if you're not saying directly, by even talking about morality in this issue? That's what you're implying.

You are aware you can call out an immoral action without proclaiming moral superiority, as I previously stated I am not a particularly good person, probably a worse person than you. I'm not trying to claim I have any moral superiority over anyone. I'm simply saying murder is an immoral action. 

 

5 minutes ago, Miss Show Business said:

It would be one thing if you simply stated your personal moral beliefs, and then explained that because of this, you choose to be vegan, etc, but make it clear that it's a personal choice. You literally called for ABOLISHMENT! The second you try controlling other people's lives is where you lose everything.

It should not be a personal choice to take another's life. It is not a personal choice to be homophobic, both are unacceptable, and just as homophobia was previously tolerated in society, then people got a grip, I believe animal rights will eventually be respected in general society.

[loveisdead9582]

On 2/14/2023 at 6:55 PM, Icarus said:

We just need to ensure that all farm animals are kept free-range and are killed as humanely and painlessly as possible 

This. I’ve tried going completely vegetarian but I just can’t get into it. I DO however try to eat meat that is free-range from animals that are well cared for

[Miss Show Business]

7 minutes ago, Yum said:

I'm not going to bother writing a book this time around as you appear to be spinning in circles with the same arguments much like that Britney gif but I'd like to address two things

 

You are aware you can call out an immoral action without proclaiming moral superiority, as I previously stated I am not a particularly good person, probably a worse person than you. I'm not trying to claim I have any moral superiority over anyone. I'm simply saying murder is an immoral action. 

 

It should not be a personal choice to take another's life. It is not a personal choice to be homophobic, both are unacceptable, and just as homophobia was previously tolerated in society, then people got a grip, I believe animal rights will eventually be respected in general society.

It's also unacceptable to try and control the personal freedoms of other people, for example: banning gender affirming therapy that we are seeing all over the country.

 

I already know what your response is going to be... But again, you need to let go of your personal moral convictions and understand that your view is not the only acceptable view.

 

Unless you're talking about human beings, then your morality is subjective. You're not grasping this no matter how many times I say it.

 

REGARDLESS of what you believe, the choice to eat meat or not is a personal freedom. If you don't personally believe in eating meat, great! More power to you. But don't try to force your beliefs onto others. This is literally no different than the right wing trying to force Christian laws onto the entire country. Veganism is a personal choice, one that you cannot just force onto people. 

 

Go ahead and say "tHaTs NoT cOmPaRaBlE". I don't care. I'm done here. 

[bliaz]

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Miss Show Business said:

It's also unacceptable to try and control the personal freedoms of other people, for example: banning gender affirming therapy that we are seeing all over the country.

 

I already know what your response is going to be... But again, you need to let go of your personal moral convictions and understand that your view is not the only acceptable view.

 

Unless you're talking about human beings, then your morality is subjective. You're not grasping this no matter how many times I say it.

 

REGARDLESS of what you believe, the choice to eat meat or not is a personal freedom. If you don't personally believe in eating meat, great! More power to you. But don't try to force your beliefs onto others. This is literally no different than the right wing trying to force Christian laws onto the entire country. Veganism is a personal choice, one that you cannot just force onto people. 

 

Go ahead and say "tHaTs NoT cOmPaRaBlE". I don't care. I'm done here. 

We've stripped down the argument to the fundamental point.

 

You believe eating meat is a personal choice, I believe it is not.

 

Previously people owned human slaves, was that a personal choice? no. why? there was a victim of this action.

 

I'm all for personal freedom. I love carrots but if you hate them, you do you, never touch another carrot in your life, I don't care.

The limit on personal freedom comes when there's a victim, when the actions of your "personal freedom" inflict on another's personal freedom.

By expressing your "personal freedom" and choosing to eat the corpse of an animal you are removing that animals personal freedom, rights, and life.

Therefor it's unacceptable and needs to be abolished.

[Miss Show Business]

3 minutes ago, Yum said:

Previously people owned human slaves, was that a personal choice? no. why? there was a victim of this action.

 

This should be a ZTP.

[Guest]

Just now, Miss Show Business said:

 

This should be a ZTP.

I'm simply drawing a parallel to another situation in history where people incorrectly thought they had personal choice over someone else's rights.

 

I'm in no way supporting anything hateful, nor saying the situations are comparable outside of the very specific context.

[Armani?]

21 minutes ago, Miss Show Business said:

This should be a ZTP.

It isnt a personal choice to eat meat, you're funding a industry to torture & kill billions of animals

 

Would it be the personal choice of some crazy cannibal to kidnap humans and eat them in their basement?  Obviously not. 

 

[ClashAndBurn]

14 minutes ago, Yum said:

I'm simply drawing a parallel to another situation in history where people incorrectly thought they had personal choice over someone else's rights.

 

I'm in no way supporting anything hateful, nor saying the situations are comparable outside of the very specific context.

Making comparisons of chattel slavery to farm animals is literally dehumanizing the people who were enslaved. You can’t be serious.

[Bussea]

3 hours ago, Miss Show Business said:

That's abhorrent, and I don't condone that in any way.

 

However, "Vegans must rise up, we have let the depravity go unchecked for far too long." Isn't exactly "polite" and doesn't read as something serious.

 

Like I said, if you're serious and want to discuss ways of moving forward when it comes to reducing suffering from animals who are killed for meat, then that we can discuss. We can discuss reducing suffering and more humane ways of killing animals. We can discuss funding lab grown meat and an eventual phasing out of killed meat.

 

These are realistic solutions to your concerns everybody can get on board with. If your position is that we should just all stop eating meat and that humans should no longer consume other animals? That's bordering on extreme and not something everyone agrees with. Humans are omnivores by nature... Our brains have developed the way they have because we have consumed meat and animal products.

 

Additionally, even if humans didn't kill animals for food, plenty of species require meat in their diets. Animals are always going to suffer and be killed by other animals in the wild. It is literally impossible to completely eliminate suffering and killing in the wild.

 

Some pets even require meat. Cats MUST have meat in their diets or they'll become severely malnourished. Animals like snakes - literally require a diet of dead baby mice.

 

Isn't it actually torture to not feed these animals what they require in their diets? Even if we weren't killing animals for ourselves, these animals people frequently keep as pets would require this in their diets... Not giving it to them is torturing them and abusing them, plain and simple... There is no such thing as a "vegan" cat, period.

 

Like I said, you're simply not going to stop all killing when it comes to this issue in a broader sense. There is a reasonable way to discuss reducing killing when it comes to humans — but jumping to extremes is not the way to move forward. Working together to improve conditions on farms, reducing suffering, and advocating for funding for lab grown meat research — these are solutions you can and will get alot of support from from omnivores. But, omnivores aren't just going to suddenly change their diets to appease vegans who think this way...

 

The only essay in here worth reading

 

EDIT: As well as your others

Edited February 16, 2023 by Bussea

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

Making comparisons of chattel slavery to farm animals is literally dehumanizing the people who were enslaved. You can’t be serious.

I was not comparing the two events, I was comparing one of the ludicrous justifications that people made in history. Obviously in basically every other way the events are incomparable.

[Armani?]

11 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

Making comparisons of chattel slavery to farm animals is literally dehumanizing the people who were enslaved. You can’t be serious.

Im on the fence with this, because both arguments can be made of it being insensitive while also making valid points. 

 

If we cant treat animals humanely, it's no surprise we did it to ourselves, under the veil of ignorance.

 

There's always some caste system of treating other races of people or animals terribly in our society because those same ppl think they're superior & others inferior.

 

Humans have a problem with that.

 

Unfortunately this ignorant attitude has not only led to killing billions of animals but destroying the planet that humans need to live as of now anyway.  

Edited February 16, 2023 by Armani?

[Guest]

Just now, Armani? said:

Im on the fence with this, because both arguments can be made of it being insensitive while also making valid points. 

 

If we cant treat animals humanely, it's no surprise we did it to ourselves, under the veil of ignorance.

 

There's always some caste system of treating other races of people or animals terribly in our society because those same ppl think they're superior & others inferior.

 

Humans have a problem with that

Building off of this, I didn't mean to come across as insensitive, it was just the first example that came to mind of a situation where someone incorrectly thought they were superior and inflicted harm as a result. But the example you came up with was far more appropriate while still illustrating the same point I was trying to get across:

 

10 minutes ago, Armani? said:

Would it be the personal choice of some crazy cannibal to kidnap humans and eat them in their basement?  Obviously not. 

 

[Into The Void]

On 2/14/2023 at 5:33 PM, Yum said:

I don't dispute that people enjoy the taste of animal products, and I completely understand those who do, I used to when I was younger. I'm just making the case that regardless of our enjoyment of them, the way they are produced is not morally acceptable.

 

Also I've found (personally) it's not preference, but rather familiarity. The first time I tried a vegan cheese I hated it, but I tried it again some months later expecting to hate it again, but loved it. It wasn't ever that I disliked the taste, it was that I was expecting it to taste identical to dairy cheese, and the lack of familiarity threw me off. When I first went vegan I wasn't impressed with some substitutions but stuck with it because the moral basis mattered more to me than my taste preference, but after a short while I was more than happy with the vegan alternatives and wouldn't want to switch back. But that's just a personal anecdote, it's different for different people.

This TOTALLY makes me want to go vegan 

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Insanity

[terrorblade]

[GraceRandolph]

17 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

Making comparisons of chattel slavery to farm animals is literally dehumanizing the people who were enslaved. You can’t be serious.

What comparison do you want us to make? How can we center the feelings of meat eaters in this discussion about animal rights and environmental degradation?

[Guest]

Just now, Insanity said:

This TOTALLY makes me want to go vegan 

 

You many not wanna talk about how not good it is lmao

I'm not trying to promote a cool diet I found, my stance in this thread has just been about getting rights for animals, which veganism plays a part in.

 

But as I sad in the other parts of the paragraph: "it's not preference, but rather familiarity" & "but after a short while I was more than happy with the vegan alternatives and wouldn't want to switch back"

 

Once I understood it doesn't taste exactly the same, an was open to that I realised that it wasn't I preferred non-vegan food, rather I was just familiar with non-vegan food so that's what I was expecting to taste. Kinda like when you go to drink a glass of water then you realise it's lemonade and its icky for a second, lemonade is still lovely, it just catches you off guard for it to be something other than you were initially expecting to be tasting.

[youreyesgocold]

On 2/14/2023 at 6:13 PM, ProudLBS said:

are you gonna learn to photosynthesize

I’m so late in this thread but I SCREAMED 

[family.guy123]

No. I eat meat and I don’t want to pay another tax.