news Utah officially bans gender-affirming healthcare for those under 18, no exceptions

[Ice Cream Skies]

I think this is the right move to make. Age 18 minimum, but no higher than that. I’m completely supportive of gender affirmation surgery in general. That said, permanently altering the state of your body during your most formative years (physically, mentally, emotionally) seems rather premature and potentially disastrous.  Even 18 isn’t that old, but it’s preferable to 12-17…

[Communion]

11 minutes ago, Harrier said:

most harsh, uncharitable interpretations of everything I ever say

2 hours ago, Harrier said:

I don't have cases to pull out off the top of my head because this is just an ATRL thread but you're denying the reality we can all see if you think it's going perfectly.

You think someone is being uncharitable TO YOU by negatively reacting to you telling them "you're blind to reality" when they bring you statistics that show nearly universal satisfaction amongst trans people? 

 

Scream! Not "I don't like your tone!" and "CHINA!!!!" in response to you trying to lie and promote anti-trans hate on the downlow in the hopes that no one would catch your horrific ass, hateful ass dog whistles.

 

You ignored @ClashAndBurn calling you out, unable to answer to this point.

 

And when I took the much nicer route than them, and asked you to simply name where you think there's not enough oversight put in place, you.... couldn't!  You diverted to de-transitioners and then lashed out when presented with the fact that less than 3% regret medical transition and less than 1% of trans people regret identifying as trans! And I or others are meant to feel sorry for you? 

 

I'm supposed to feel sorry for you and feel bad that I trust the medical science and not your feelings?? 

 

You're a reactionary and I hope you're kept away from LGBT youth for their safety. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Communion

[Harrier]

12 minutes ago, Communion said:

You think someone is being uncharitable TO YOU by negatively reacting to you telling them "you're blind to reality" when they bring you statistics that show nearly universal satisfaction amongst trans people? 

 

Scream! Not "I don't like your tone!" and "CHINA!!!!" in response to you trying to lie and promote anti-trans hate on the downlow in the hopes that no one would catch your horrific ass, hateful ass dog whistles.

 

You ignored @ClashAndBurn calling you out, unable to answer to this point.

 

And when I took the much nicer route than them, and asked you to simply name where you think there's not enough oversight put in place, you.... couldn't!  You diverted to de-transitioners and then lashed out when presented with the fact that less than 3% regret medical transition and less than 1% of trans people regret identifying as trans! And I or others are meant to feel sorry for you? 

 

I'm supposed to feel sorry for you and feel bad that I trust the medical science and not your feelings?? 

 

You're a reactionary and I hope you're kept away from LGBT youth for their safety. 

Oh so I'm a danger to LGBT youth now? What a horrible thing to say to someone. 

 

I did respond to what you said by pointing out the study you provided is of trans adults. My concern here is about medicalisation of children and that extends beyond trans healthcare also to things like antidepressants, medications for ADHD and autism etc. The accusations of secret transphobia or dog whistles or whatever are all FALSE and defamatory. You don't know me, you don't know how I am with my students - how dare you make such horrid accusations.

 

I think from the exchanges in this thread it's clear who came into this in good faith. I have nothing further to say to you.

[Communion]

16 minutes ago, Harrier said:

Oh so I'm a danger to LGBT youth now? What a horrible thing to say to someone. 

I think from the exchanges in this thread it's clear who came into this in good faith. I have nothing further to say to you.

When your entire position is "well I *CARE* about trans kids so I'm not transphobic" but then try and belittle and gaslight people who trust trans people when they report their own satisfaction, yes? 

 

You are encroaching your entire belief that access to gender-affirming care is "overmedicalization" by framing it that you just "care" about trans youth so much and thus don't want them to have "regrets".

 

Again, you literally told @ClashAndBurnyou don't deal with "slippery slope fallacies", but when presented with the statistics at-present, you rejected the reality that medical transition has one of the lowest levels of regret (because there's already oversight to transitioning, duh!) and 99% of trans people are happy with being trans; you essentially went "BUT WHAT WILL THE STATISTICS LOOK LIKE IN THE FUTURE???". 

 

No one is saying you're transphobic cause they wanna feel smart or a difference of opinion. You are literally *rejecting* the overwhelming satisfaction of trans people as we can measure and letting your discomfort with "medicine" make you open to anti-trans positions. Validating your "discomfort" with medicine by aligning with like-minded "skeptics" is more important to you than defending trans people's material reality.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Communion

[Cherish]

Utah is a cesspool. We need to divide religion from the state but it seems no one can do that. 

[rivers]

13 hours ago, Harrier said:

Oh so I'm a danger to LGBT youth now? What a horrible thing to say to someone. 

 

I did respond to what you said by pointing out the study you provided is of trans adults. My concern here is about medicalisation of children and that extends beyond trans healthcare also to things like antidepressants, medications for ADHD and autism etc. The accusations of secret transphobia or dog whistles or whatever are all FALSE and defamatory. You don't know me, you don't know how I am with my students - how dare you make such horrid accusations.

 

I think from the exchanges in this thread it's clear who came into this in good faith. I have nothing further to say to you.

You’ve figured out their tactic. They love to belittle and accuse people of terrible things so that they get a rise out of them. It’s funny though they get overly emotional themselves as well.  They project like crazy. I always question if their views are genuine or if they just troll to make people feel bad. If they are genuine they are terrible at convincing people of their argument. Nobody wants to be aligned with a bully. 

 

[Communion]

2 hours ago, rivers said:

They love to belittle and accuse people of terrible things 

To remind everyone reading:

 

@Harrier: "I'm uncomfortable with just letting teens transition if there's no oversight and standards to meet."

 

Me: "Are you.. referencing something specific? A specific country? Many trans person would tell you medically transitioning already has long hurdles, wait times and tons of oversight and..."

 

@Harrier: "This is an ATRL thread. I don't need specifics. If you can't see there's something wrong happening, you are blind to the reality that we can all very clearly see this is not going well." 

 

Yes, the user who says trusting trans people's own words makes you BLIND and DELUSIONAL deserves sympathy. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Communion

[ClashAndBurn]

On 1/28/2023 at 9:56 PM, Ice Cream Skies said:

I think this is the right move to make. Age 18 minimum, but no higher than that. I’m completely supportive of gender affirmation surgery in general. That said, permanently altering the state of your body during your most formative years (physically, mentally, emotionally) seems rather premature and potentially disastrous.  Even 18 isn’t that old, but it’s preferable to 12-17…

Like I said before, you can support age limited bans all you want, but the people writing those laws have said over and over that the intent is to start there so that total bans can become more palatable. It’s the “boiling the frog” principle.

Abortion bans have typically worked the same way, starting “moderate” and getting increasingly more restrictive. People accept the 20+ week bans as reasonable, and they slowly become more desensitized as the laws change to ban abortions at fewer and fewer weeks until you have a Heartbeat Law in Georgia that functionally bans abortions from bei mg done at any period a woman would feasibly be able to even find out she was pregnant.

[Bloo]

On 1/28/2023 at 7:24 PM, Communion said:

Don't less than 3% of all people who undergo medical transition (which in itself is not all trans people) say they regret it? Who are all these "detransitioners"? 

This may have already been mentioned by the time I got to this, but it is important to note that the vast majority of people who do detransition do so because of the immense amount of transphobia they experience. In fact, it is exceedingly common for the (extremely small population of) people who detransition to actually retransition when they feel more secure to do so.

 

Regardless, gender affirming care is necessary for trans youth. The only people this issue concerns are trans youth, their parents, and healthcare providers. If you are none of these people, then you should tread with caution before commenting. Gender affirming care includes setting trans children up with therapists to understand their gender identity. For instance, if a child is experiencing gender dysphoria, a healthcare provider can better understand how best to treat the gender dysphoria to reduce a child's risk of self-harm or suicide. Outright outlawing all forms of gender affirming care for minors is literally just going to put these children at risk of self-harm and even suicide. It's an indefensible position the more you think of it.

[Bang Up]

On 1/28/2023 at 4:12 PM, Harrier said:

Still unsure how I feel about this one. I want trans kids to be safe, happy, and accepted, but I also remember what it was like to be a gender non-conforming teen confused about my identity. Stories from detransitioners should be taken seriously, not dismissed as right-wing propaganda just because they're being used that way. Puberty blockers, surgery, and hormones are serious and have irreversible effects.

 

Giving kids these options to make them 'more passable' as adults is questionable logic to me.

 

I think it shouldn't be made illegal like this because there are kids for whom it's the right choice. But there are also kids that need time to figure themselves out before making permanent decisions that medicalize you for life. Robust systems of oversight and perhaps making it so a kid needs to consistently be seeking healthcare for a period of years before getting access to this stuff - something like that needs to be in place here. 

The problem is, no one is immediately jumping to gender-affirming care the moment their kids come out. They do have these discussions with their kids and do make sure it's the right choice. Using a handful of detransitioners as proof for why we should crack down on helping kids makes no sense as they are far and away outnumbered by people who've transitioned and are happy.

 

This is a nuanced and confusing issue, honestly. If you allow kids to go through puberty and their bodies change permanently, you run the risk of that child growing up to be a miserable, depressed adult. Some of, if not most of these kids feel they need affirming care in order to be happy. Where is the middleground? Is there even one?

[ClashAndBurn]

11 hours ago, Bang Up said:

The problem is, no one is immediately jumping to gender-affirming care the moment their kids come out. They do have these discussions with their kids and do make sure it's the right choice. Using a handful of detransitioners as proof for why we should crack down on helping kids makes no sense as they are far and away outnumbered by people who've transitioned and are happy.

 

This is a nuanced and confusing issue, honestly. If you allow kids to go through puberty and their bodies change permanently, you run the risk of that child growing up to be a miserable, depressed adult. Some of, if not most of these kids feel they need affirming care in order to be happy. Where is the middleground? Is there even one?

What's really rich about this is that they simultaneously want to ban trans women who have gone through male puberty to compete in women's sports AND they want to ban puberty blockers. And the pick-me's of ATRL are okay with this? Knowing that they absolutely won't stop with an 18 and under ban only? Nonsense.  

[getback]

On 1/28/2023 at 4:12 PM, Harrier said:

Still unsure how I feel about this one. I want trans kids to be safe, happy, and accepted, but I also remember what it was like to be a gender non-conforming teen confused about my identity. Stories from detransitioners should be taken seriously, not dismissed as right-wing propaganda just because they're being used that way. Puberty blockers, surgery, and hormones are serious and have irreversible effects.

 

Giving kids these options to make them 'more passable' as adults is questionable logic to me.

 

I think it shouldn't be made illegal like this because there are kids for whom it's the right choice. But there are also kids that need time to figure themselves out before making permanent decisions that medicalize you for life. Robust systems of oversight and perhaps making it so a kid needs to consistently be seeking healthcare for a period of years before getting access to this stuff - something like that needs to be in place here. 

precisely this.

kids are too often confused about their identity. making permanent and irreversible changes to their body at such a young age before they're mature will do more harm than good to a lot of them.

hell even adults have a long and hard journey to come to term with their own identity. 

a better system needs to be implemented so legit trans kids can have access to gender affirming care, and confused kids won't just do something they may regret later. stories about detrans and trans people who regret their surgeries are as valid as stories about trans kids getting their lives changed for the better. two sides of a coin.

[G.U.Y. Gaga]

Ugh this is kind of right

 

should even be 21

[Bang Up]

11 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said:

What's really rich about this is that they simultaneously want to ban trans women who have gone through male puberty to compete in women's sports AND they want to ban puberty blockers. And the pick-me's of ATRL are okay with this? Knowing that they absolutely won't stop with an 18 and under ban only? Nonsense.  

They have rocks for brains. Like, they say kids should have to wait until they're adults, but that's exactly what puberty blockers allow kids to do. They give kids time to fully come to terms with who they are regarding gender. But of course the convo has now moved to puberty blockers being bad. The entire point is banning being transgender. It's not about "taking care of kids", it's about getting rid of all trans people.

[Headlock]

15 hours ago, getback said:

precisely this.

kids are too often confused about their identity. making permanent and irreversible changes to their body at such a young age before they're mature will do more harm than good to a lot of them.

hell even adults have a long and hard journey to come to term with their own identity. 

a better system needs to be implemented so legit trans kids can have access to gender affirming care, and confused kids won't just do something they may regret later. stories about detrans and trans people who regret their surgeries are as valid as stories about trans kids getting their lives changed for the better. two sides of a coin.

…you didn’t read this thread did you 

[RunUpDoneUp]

An excellent showing of how conservatives don't care or have any real interest in children's safety is that they regularly go against demonstrably proven methods of reducing child suicide and healthy adulthood in our budding youth who's cases require medical assistance to do so.

 

Antigender affirmation is explicitly anti child safety and actively pushes at risk kids to an early grave. This is not by chance, they want LGBT children dead.

[Mobility Mary]

The same age as New Jersey

[Horizon Flame]

On 1/31/2023 at 12:22 PM, Bang Up said:

They have rocks for brains. Like, they say kids should have to wait until they're adults, but that's exactly what puberty blockers allow kids to do. They give kids time to fully come to terms with who they are regarding gender. But of course the convo has now moved to puberty blockers being bad. The entire point is banning being transgender. It's not about "taking care of kids", it's about getting rid of all trans people.

Puberty blockers are not candy. We don’t know the long-term effects and bone and brain development are affected. It’s not that simple. Big Pharma is making billions off this. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Horizon Flame

[Communion]

13 hours ago, Horizon Flame said:

Puberty blockers are not candy. We don’t know the long-term effects and bone and brain development are affected. It’s not that simple. Big Pharma is making billions off this. 

Congrats, you're on the same side as far-right Republicans promoting trans genocide.

 

You know what Big Pharma makes money off of?

• Insulin
• Cancer Meds
• HIV Meds
• Anti-Depressants
• etc.

There's not a single drug that has ever been researched and developed to be explicitly used only *for* trans people. Trans healthcare is not some gold mine. Gender-affirming care is already care that cis people get for a myriad of issues. "We don't know the side effects!!!!" -- There are literally IG ads for companies selling products that are topical Finasteride.   Hims literally advertises its products as "hormone blocking!".  Are cis men risking sexual dysfunction for beauty not participating in gender-affirming care?

 

 

Every 30-something cis man you know popping himself full of Propecia to stop his male pattern baldness is literally taking the same chemical compound as many trans women undergoing hormone replacement therapy.  Cyproterone acetate is used to treat PCOS. Estradiol is used to treat symptoms related to menopause. Bicalutamide being commonly prescribed for feminizing HRT is why prostate cancer rates amongst trans women are so low, because it is largely used amongst cis men to treat prostate cancer already.

 

You don't "go after" Big Pharma by randomly attacking pharmaceuticals *explicitly and only in the way they are prescribed for trans people*.

 

If you're concerned about exploitation, then you'd be advocating for price controls on gender-affirming care. The idea that any drug company is getting rich off of trans people... no one is buying it and especially from far-right Republicans who love capitalism. 

 

No one is getting a HRT regimen over the counter or from their family doctor.  Diagnosis and treatment requires involving an endocrinologist and assessing one's entire medical history and inherited health risks to assess what treatments are suitable. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Communion

[Eternium]

On 1/28/2023 at 8:11 PM, Harrier said:

@Communion While I see your point, I think 3% is a significant enough number to warrant consideration.

I love you and I see that some girls have already corrected this statement, but I just want to add for future readers of this thread: a dissatisfaction level of 3% is incredible and almost unheard of in medicine. Compare that to people who take anti hypertensive medications which can be a requirement for some people to live. Anywhere from 30-50% of people on anti-hypertensives are non compliant and we spend hundreds of millions of dollars alone in healthcare costs just to try to reverse the damages of that noncompliance. To have only 3% of trans patients detransition, especially in light of a political atmosphere that tries to outlaw trans identities, is beyond good.

On 1/28/2023 at 6:49 PM, Harrier said:

Slippery slope argument holds no weight for me here. 'We can't have gay marriage because it'll be polygamy next'. Same line of thinking. Let's fight them when they try and go to far rather than pointlessly digging in on an issue that does actually deserve nuance

No. Please take a stand every time when it’s the right thing to do. Now my state is trying to take away gender-affirming care unless it benefits white males (I.e. viagra, birth control and testosterone). 

On 1/28/2023 at 8:37 PM, Communion said:

There is oversight. There are precautions.

 

Cis minor girls are allowed to undergo gender-affirming procedures like breast implants before the age of 18.

There have been young cis men prescribed Propecia at 16, 17, etc. for male pattern baldness.

I can’t tell if you’re a medical professional or just a huge trans ally but  And speak on those precautions and the huge abundance of oversight. Children don’t just end up in a trans clinic. They seek out a specialized endocrinologist, get two letters from different therapists stating certain standards have been met, meet certain requirements in pubescent stages, etc. You can walk into most clinics and get opioids in less than an hour but to get proper trans care, it takes at least a few months to just start therapy.

 

And about the second part, don’t forget that the largest area of gender-affirming care is birth control for cis women. The second largest area of care is erectile dysfunction then balding and then acne care. It’s so common to see kids with cystic acne getting Spironolactone but somehow when a trans child is prescribed it, we have to pretend like it’s a new, dangerous medication.

On 2/2/2023 at 9:26 AM, Horizon Flame said:

Puberty blockers are not candy. We don’t know the long-term effects and bone and brain development are affected. It’s not that simple. Big Pharma is making billions of this. 

Baby, just say you don’t know medicine and go. Nobody is making a killing off of Spironolactone, Bicalutamide, Estradiol, Testosterone, Medroxyprogesterone, etc. Insurance plans almost never cover GnRH agonists (they all get marked up since some can help treat cancers) so 99% of trans patients use the same gender-affirming care that cisgender people do. The medications that are used in gender-affirming care have mostly all been generic for decades and are among the least profitable medications out there, after NSAIDs. 
 

Please remember that most gender-affirming care is given to cisgender people and has been around since the 1950s. And the medications that are newer that we use to treat trans youth aren’t regularly approved for them because insurance companies don’t have to recognize gender dysphoria as a medical necessity.

[Harrier]

Reflecting on the exchanges in this thread from @Eternium tagging me and having done more reading, I can see where I went wrong here. Rather idly speculating, I should have taken the time to better understand regret rates when it comes to trans surgeries and gender affirming care. While we shouldn't dismiss detrasnsitioners entirely, it's very important to keep in mind that they do represent a small minority, and protecting trans people from the blatant attacks from the right is the most important thing right now. I apologize for being duped somewhat by some of the fear mongering around gender affirming care, and for contributing to a narrative that's building to make trans healthcare illegal entirely. I allowed it to play into my other views about the overmedicalization of children in terms of drugs prescribed for mental health & neurodivergence, and I was ignorant.

 

Now, that doesn't excuse the wildly disproportionate attacks I received. My concerns, though off base in this case, were in good faith as I genuinely care about queer teens. Anyone would be concerned if they saw the testimonies of some of these detranstioners, especially as a gender non-comforming person who's had some of those feelings, and as a teacher.

 

Being accused of being a transphobic danger to queer youth went overboard, and I hope Communion is able to see that despite the fiery words we exchanged.

[Bang Up]

On 2/2/2023 at 10:26 AM, Horizon Flame said:

Puberty blockers are not candy. We don’t know the long-term effects and bone and brain development are affected. It’s not that simple. Big Pharma is making billions off this. 

No one thinks puberty blockers are candy and no one treats them as such.

 

1 hour ago, Harrier said:

Reflecting on the exchanges in this thread from @Eternium tagging me and having done more reading, I can see where I went wrong here. Rather idly speculating, I should have taken the time to better understand regret rates when it comes to trans surgeries and gender affirming care. While we shouldn't dismiss detrasnsitioners entirely, it's very important to keep in mind that they do represent a small minority, and protecting trans people from the blatant attacks from the right is the most important thing right now. I apologize for being duped somewhat by some of the fear mongering around gender affirming care, and for contributing to a narrative that's building to make trans healthcare illegal entirely. I allowed it to play into my other views about the overmedicalization of children in terms of drugs prescribed for mental health & neurodivergence, and I was ignorant.

 

Now, that doesn't excuse the wildly disproportionate attacks I received. My concerns, though off base in this case, were in good faith as I genuinely care about queer teens. Anyone would be concerned if they saw the testimonies of some of these detranstioners, especially as a gender non-comforming person who's had some of those feelings, and as a teacher.

 

Being accused of being a transphobic danger to queer youth went overboard, and I hope Communion is able to see that despite the fiery words we exchanged.

No, the attacks are justified. Trans youths are some of the highest at-risk members of our population and they deserve to be protected and fought for. Even if you didn't mean any harm by what you're saying, stuff like what you were saying pushes anti-trans narratives that lead to the deaths of these children. The onus to be educated on topics that involve trans youths is on you, not anyone else, and you shouldn't spew the kind of stuff you were saying unless you are 100% certain of what you're talking about. We don't know you. We don't know if you're educated on a topic or not. All we know is what we read, and we were reading some right-leaning stuff from you.

 

Thank you for educating yourself for future reference.

[Harrier]

8 minutes ago, Bang Up said:

No one thinks puberty blockers are candy and no one treats them as such.

 

No, the attacks are justified. Trans youths are some of the highest at-risk members of our population and they deserve to be protected and fought for. Even if you didn't mean any harm by what you're saying, stuff like what you were saying pushes anti-trans narratives that lead to the deaths of these children. The onus to be educated on topics that involve trans youths is on you, not anyone else, and you shouldn't spew the kind of stuff you were saying unless you are 100% certain of what you're talking about. We don't know you. We don't know if you're educated on a topic or not. All we know is what we read, and we were reading some right-leaning stuff from you.

 

Thank you for educating yourself for future reference.

Fundamentally disagree.

 

If you can't engage good faith concerns without accusing people of contributing to the deaths of trans children, how on earth do you plan to deal with the median opinion about this topic which is way more ignorant and unfavorable than my relatively mild expressions of concern? Even in this thread, there are several members who expressed much more clearly anti-trans opinions than me, and this is a very LGBTQ space.

 

Learn how to differentiate between people like me and the Ron Desantises of the world. Otherwise, your stridency and unforgiving attitude only serves to drive people to the other side.

[RunUpDoneUp]

7 hours ago, Harrier said:

Fundamentally disagree.

 

If you can't engage good faith concerns without accusing people of contributing to the deaths of trans children, how on earth do you plan to deal with the median opinion about this topic which is way more ignorant and unfavorable than my relatively mild expressions of concern? Even in this thread, there are several members who expressed much more clearly anti-trans opinions than me, and this is a very LGBTQ space.

 

Learn how to differentiate between people like me and the Ron Desantises of the world. Otherwise, your stridency and unforgiving attitude only serves to drive people to the other side.

 

People who care(like everyone worth talking to) respond to that line of confrontation. The reality is that kids are dying from lack of care and feeling invalidated as people. The suicidality of trans people is through the roof, the policy and beliefs of a nation widely affects this. Just because one is unaware or not consciously thinking about it doesn't mean it's not a valid frame of reference. It worked for civil rights, it worked for gay rights and it'll work for trans rights too. The reason you feel hurt by the talking point is exactly why it should be used; human response is how you separate a viable get from someone who is okay with people dying because of who they are.

[Bang Up]

57 minutes ago, RunUpDoneUp said:

 

People who care(like everyone worth talking to) respond to that line of confrontation. The reality is that kids are dying from lack of care and feeling invalidated as people. The suicidality of trans people is through the roof, the policy and beliefs of a nation widely affects this. Just because one is unaware or not consciously thinking about it doesn't mean it's not a valid frame of reference. It worked for civil rights, it worked for gay rights and it'll work for trans rights too. The reason you feel hurt by the talking point is exactly why it should be used; human response is how you separate a viable get from someone who is okay with people dying because of who they are.

The idea that we should be nice to people pushing bigoted narratives because "it's how you have a conversation" is ridiculous. It has never worked and it will never work.