news Utah officially bans gender-affirming healthcare for those under 18, no exceptions

[Communion]

 

Edited March 19, 2023 by Communion

[ButterflyXIII]

Same age as in China.

[HEATED]

Damn. The Renaissance Tour is gonna have zero dates at this rate

[Aethereal]

6 minutes ago, HEATED said:

Damn. The Renaissance Tour is gonna have zero dates at this rate

Is this a joke ragarding B's performance in Dubai?

[HEATED]

6 minutes ago, Aristotle said:

Is this a joke ragarding B's performance in Dubai?

?

[Aethereal]

5 minutes ago, HEATED said:

?

Your comment was random. Given that Beyonce was attacked for performing in Dubai so I suppose your comment was a joke about Beyonce refusing to tour because of the state banning trans healthcare. Or something like that. Or did you mistake the thread?  

 

[Harrier]

Still unsure how I feel about this one. I want trans kids to be safe, happy, and accepted, but I also remember what it was like to be a gender non-conforming teen confused about my identity. Stories from detransitioners should be taken seriously, not dismissed as right-wing propaganda just because they're being used that way. Puberty blockers, surgery, and hormones are serious and have irreversible effects.

 

Giving kids these options to make them 'more passable' as adults is questionable logic to me.

 

I think it shouldn't be made illegal like this because there are kids for whom it's the right choice. But there are also kids that need time to figure themselves out before making permanent decisions that medicalize you for life. Robust systems of oversight and perhaps making it so a kid needs to consistently be seeking healthcare for a period of years before getting access to this stuff - something like that needs to be in place here. 

[byzantium]

So I guess conservatives are not for leaving decisions up to children and parents after all.  They are hypocrites as always. 

[Aethereal]

1 minute ago, Harrier said:

Still unsure how I feel about this one. I want trans kids to be safe, happy, and accepted, but I also remember what it was like to be a gender non-conforming teen confused about my identity. Puberty blockers, surgery, and hormones are serious and have irreversible effects.

 

Giving kids these options to make them 'more passable' as adults is questionable logic to me.

 

I think it shouldn't be made illegal like this because there are kids for whom it's the right choice. But there are also kids that need time to figure themselves out before making permanent decisions that medicalize you for life. Robust systems of oversight and perhaps making it so a kid needs to consistently be seeking healthcare for a period of years before getting access to this stuff - something like that needs to be in place here. 

Pretty much this. I think hormone therapy was allowed when you're like 15 or 14 years old? Waiting 3 or 4 years is not that big of a deal until you are really sure you want to transition.

[Communion]

1 hour ago, ButterflyXIII said:

Same age as in China.

? This is untrue, at least for hormone therapy and puberty blockers.

 

The opposite is actually the problem in China - the vast majority of laws and regulations focus on gender-affirming surgery that there is little guidance on what medical professionals should do, for people of any ages, with regards to HRT and non-surgical acts.

 

Amnesty Internal (from 2019, so before the surgery age was lowered down to 18):

Quote

At present, the only official guideline on the provision of healthcare services to transgender people in China is the Sex Reassignment Procedural Management Standards 2017 (hereafter, “the Standards”), issued by the National Health and Family Planning Commission in 2017.43 This document offers guidance only on gender affirming surgery, including genital surgery and surgeries on secondary sex characteristics, but not other types of gender-affirming treatments, such as hormone therapy.4

This then compounds with the lack of healthcare infrastructure and most doctors, especially rural doctors, not even being sure what transgenderism is or how to diagnose, let alone then prescribing medication, leading many even above the age of 18 having difficulty in accessing such medication. 

 

But the problem in China is clearly lack of information and accessibility. Trans sisters and brothers in China need support and people should do what they can to get medication in their hands, but that's a different beast then the conversation in the US with conservatives threatening to bomb hospitals that offer hormone replacement therapy to teens.

 

Also, I know Utah is.... Utah, but I hope we're not comparing a state part of the richest country in the world to a country that still doesn't have a fully developed healthcare system in place. Is the bar really that low? 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Communion

[Thuggin]

Conservatives aren't going to stop there. They're already trying to justify extending bans to the age of 25 "because the prefrontal cortex doesn't finish developing until then".

[HEATED]

55 minutes ago, Aristotle said:

Is this a joke ragarding B's performance in Dubai?

 

39 minutes ago, Aristotle said:

Your comment was random. Given that Beyonce was attacked for performing in Dubai so I suppose your comment was a joke about Beyonce refusing to tour because of the state banning trans healthcare. Or something like that. Or did you mistake the thread?  

 

Yes beloved. 

[Mitsouko]

Waiting until age 18 to start transitioning medically seems sensible, but I know they won’t end there and this is only one battle in their bigger war

[Communion]

48 minutes ago, Harrier said:

Robust systems of oversight and perhaps making it so a kid needs to consistently be seeking healthcare for a period of years before getting access to this stuff - something like that needs to be in place here. 

Can you provide evidence that this doesn't already exist or are you just musing on a topic you're in the dark on?

[ClashAndBurn]

2 hours ago, Harrier said:

Still unsure how I feel about this one. I want trans kids to be safe, happy, and accepted, but I also remember what it was like to be a gender non-conforming teen confused about my identity. Stories from detransitioners should be taken seriously, not dismissed as right-wing propaganda just because they're being used that way. Puberty blockers, surgery, and hormones are serious and have irreversible effects.

 

Giving kids these options to make them 'more passable' as adults is questionable logic to me.

 

I think it shouldn't be made illegal like this because there are kids for whom it's the right choice. But there are also kids that need time to figure themselves out before making permanent decisions that medicalize you for life. Robust systems of oversight and perhaps making it so a kid needs to consistently be seeking healthcare for a period of years before getting access to this stuff - something like that needs to be in place here. 

Except you’re legitimizing what many conservatives view as the first steps towards banning transition therapy for all ages.

 

They’re not going to stop at children. Like @Thuggin said, they’re going to raise the bar to mid 20s to prevent people from receiving care under their parents’ insurance next, followed by total bans after when they have enough political capital to get away with it. This is what the healthcare and sports participation bans are meant for.

[Harrier]

57 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

Except you’re legitimizing what many conservatives view as the first steps towards banning transition therapy for all ages.

 

They’re not going to stop at children. Like @Thuggin said, they’re going to raise the bar to mid 20s to prevent people from receiving care under their parents’ insurance next, followed by total bans after when they have enough political capital to get away with it. This is what the healthcare and sports participation bans are meant for.

Slippery slope argument holds no weight for me here. 'We can't have gay marriage because it'll be polygamy next'. Same line of thinking. Let's fight them when they try and go to far rather than pointlessly digging in on an issue that does actually deserve nuance

[ClashAndBurn]

Just now, Harrier said:

Slippery slope argument holds no weight for me here. 'We can't have gay marriage because it'll be polygamy next'. Same line of thinking. Let's fight them when they try and go to far rather than pointlessly digging in on an issue that does actually deserve nuance

It’s not a slippery slope argument. They’re literally saying this is how they plan to start making banning trans existence as a whole palatable. If you cede this ground now, you’re already losing ground for when the eventual 26 and under ban comes up for a vote, and then the full ban for all ages.

[Harrier]

2 hours ago, Communion said:

Can you provide evidence that this doesn't already exist or are you just musing on a topic you're in the dark on?

If the system was working properly you wouldn't have all these detransitioners coming out, or lots of people saying they didn't know transition would sterilise them. I don't have cases to pull out off the top of my head because this is just an ATRL thread but you're denying the reality we can all see if you think it's going perfectly.

 

For me, it's part of a wider problem in America (and elsewhere) of overmedicalisation. Too many people are on prescriptions.

[Communion]

29 minutes ago, Harrier said:

wouldn't have all these detransitioners coming out

Don't less than 3% of all people who undergo medical transition (which in itself is not all trans people) say they regret it? Who are all these "detransitioners"? 

 

29 minutes ago, Harrier said:

but you're denying the reality we can all see if you think it's going perfectly.

3% of people being unhappy with a medical procedure means that medical procedure is "not going perfectly"? And then not all of those 3% are unhappy *because* the procedure "didn't work"?

 

Not me giving you the benefit of the doubt and you revealing you're actually much more invested emotionally in anti-trans propaganda and your cis privilege than I could ever anticipate. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Communion

[Thuggin]

A small percent of people regretting transitioning in their youth is obviously valid, but that doesn't give anyone the right to force the VAST VAST majority of trans people who will end up happy with transitioning to instead go through the wrong puberty.  Leave these decisions up to parents, children, and doctors.

[Communion]

@Harrier

 

61% of trans people self-report as having undergone medical transition. (x)

Out of those who've medically transitioned, recent studies cap at around 3% who express regret. (x)

 

This aligns with the largest study done to date that found that 13%~ of trans people who medically transitioned have, at some point in time, "de-transitioned", but only 18% of that 13% (So again a total of 3%, at max) of de-transitioners cite their reasoning for de-transitioning as being unhappy with their medical transition. (x)

 

The vast majority of those who de-transition go on to re-transition again later in life.

The vast majority of those who de-transition cite being forced to due to community/family/work pressure.

 

It's more common for someone to be forced to de-transition than de-transition out of regret of transition.

What percentage of of regret should there be that'd make you think there was enough "oversight"? Knee replacement surgery currently has a higher regret response than medical transition. 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Communion

[Harrier]

@Communion While I see your point, I think 3% is a significant enough number to warrant consideration. I do not support this ban, as I said, but I also think that we need to keep in mind that these procedures and medications are serious. That message needs to be out there - I've seen a lot of people put forth the idea that you can just go off puberty blockers with no consequence, for example. You have people sending them out in a black market to minors (a situation experienced at my school), and I think that's unacceptable.

 

Additionally, these numbers do not reflect the current increase of youth seeking trans healthcare compared to 5-6 years ago, particularly young AFABs. They also are not controlled for age, with people who transition younger (the focus of this discussion) not being the target of the study.

 

Also, I would appreciate not being falsely labelled as some kind of anti-trans bigot because I am not. I'm a teacher and I deal with queer youth, and I want them to be safe and happy just as much as you do. That for me just includes being careful about serious medication that may do more harm than good.

[Eric.]

29 minutes ago, Thuggin said:

A small percent of people regretting transitioning in their youth is obviously valid, but that doesn't give anyone the right to force the VAST VAST majority of trans people who will end up happy with transitioning to instead go through the wrong puberty.  Leave these decisions up to parents, children, and doctors.

!!!!
 

And it's pretty obvious a lot of these de-transitioners are being given a platform and credibility that trans people would rarely be given to tell their experiences, because they reinforce the dogmatic binary mantra that sex = gender.

 

Whatever issues de-transitioners have should be used to improve treatment and options as a whole for transgender people, not for silly politicians to exploit and impose outright bans on a process that is very individualized for every person. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Eric.

[Communion]

26 minutes ago, Harrier said:

I think 3% is a significant enough number to warrant consideration.

Again, you are refusing to address that your claims of mass regret - which I've debunked - were noted because you claimed there was little oversight happening. There is oversight. There are precautions. You have an "uncomfie" feeling rooted in transphobia and had to makeup a fake reality (mass de-transitioning) to alleged a problem existed that doesn't (lack of oversight) to explain your discomfort as rational.

 

Cis minor girls are allowed to undergo gender-affirming procedures like breast implants before the age of 18.

There have been young cis men prescribed Propecia at 16, 17, etc. for male pattern baldness.

 

No concern for the overmedicalization of society can justify inventing up fears to demonize trans people.

You're quite literally advocating for forced de-transition by peddling their anti-trans rhetoric.

 

The suggestion that a 3% regret rate is unacceptable within the medical industry and there is a mass issue of de-transitioning is pure fiction derived solely from whatever projections you are placing on trans people due to whatever discomforts you're still working through.

 

Again, I wouldn't be so harsh if you just owned up to not actually knowing the stats or being unsure. But instead, when someone questioned you, you doubled-down and attacked:

1 hour ago, Harrier said:

all these detransitioners coming out....

but you're denying the reality...

You're not equipped to handle these conversations and I suggest you keep trans people off your mind. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Communion

[Harrier]

3 minutes ago, Communion said:

Again, you are refusing to address that your claims of mass regret - which I've debunked - were noted because you claimed there was little oversight happening. There is oversight. There are precautions. You have an "uncomfie" feeling rooted in transphobia and had to makeup a fake reality (mass de-transitioning) to alleged a problem existed that doesn't (lack of oversight) to explain your discomfort as rational.

 

Cis minor girls are allowed to undergo gender-affirming procedures like breast implants before the age of 18.

There have been young cis men prescribed Propecia at 16, 17, etc. for male pattern baldness.

 

No concern for the overmedicalization of society can justify inventing up fears to demonize trans people.

You're quite literally advocating for forced de-transition by peddling their anti-trans rhetoric.

 

The suggestion that a 3% regret rate is unacceptable within the medical industry and there is a mass issue of de-transitioning is pure fiction derived solely from whatever projections you are placing on trans people due to whatever discomforts you're still working through.

 

Again, I wouldn't be so harsh if you just owned up to not actually knowing the stats or being unsure. But instead, when someone questioned you, you doubled-down and attacked:

You're not equipped to handle these conversations and I suggest you keep trans people off your mind. 

You consistently choose to make the most harsh, uncharitable interpretations of everything I ever say on this forum. You are consistently rude and belittle and dismiss my intelligence. Your rhetorical strategy is to highlight tiny little bits of what was said, delete the rest of it, and make some overly strident argument or tell me I was saying something that I clearly wasn't, manipulating people into arguing a position they weren't even taking.

 

You're often right about a lot of things. But you are so convinced of your own correctness and intelligence such that you constantly talk down to everyone in a way that is extremely off-putting and makes you intolerable. Besides the fact that your takes on issues such as Chinese authoritarianism are completely laughable.

 

I think it is for the best that I put you on ignore, and I hope you do the same for me. Peace.