Caroline Polachek annoyed by Kate Bush comparisons

[PopKills]

I mean Kate Bush has music that was actually known

[liquiddiamonds]

9 minutes ago, conquxror said:

But like I said, we’re never gonna get close to someone like Kate because simply no one is doing what she did. In this case, Lorde is literally the closest we’ll get to what Kate Bush represented in her time, especially when it comes to public perspective. And let’s not act like the reception to The Dreaming didn’t do way worse for Kate than Solar Power’s did to Lorde. Kate almost got dropped from her label + everything people talked about Lorde during the SP era was what people talked about Kate back then: ooh she’s pretentious, she’s trying to become less commercial on purpose, she won’t recover from this etc etc. 

The Dreaming was a self-produced album that experimented with top-notch new technology, had Bush branching out her songwriting into a more abstract direction, with political songs about colonialism, uk-ireland conflicts, rape, misogyny, along with some personal cuts.

 

Solar Power is a co-produced indie-pop record with a Jack Johnson flare. At the peak of a worldwide crisis Lorde gave us goop futility, which is why she ain’t seeing Kate eye to eye never for ever

 

The Dreaming was criticized for being too complex and ruining her commercial career. Solar Power was panned for being a dud.

Edited January 15, 2023 by liquiddiamonds

[Big Bad Wolf]

The gays really annoy the girls 

[bestfiction]

Repress Pang on gold swirl vinyl and we will stop queen 

[Filpo]

The only one that can be compared to Kate it's FKA Twigs imo. She plays with the pop structure, she has the vocals and production skills. But, most importanly, movement, dancing and theatrics are a fundamental part of her craft.

[Mikeymoonshine]

All alt girls get compared to Kate by the media because she basically invented alt girls. It definitely is dumb and insulting to compare women in this way though and it often isn't where their influences come from. Like fair enough, Bjork was inspired by Kate but even then their music is very different. 

[conquxror]

1 hour ago, liquiddiamonds said:

The Dreaming was a self-produced album that experimented with top-notch new technology, had Bush branching out her songwriting into a more abstract direction, with political songs about colonialism, uk-ireland conflicts, rape, misogyny, along with some personal cuts.

 

Solar Power is a co-produced indie-pop record with a Jack Johnson flare. At the peak of a worldwide crisis Lorde gave us goop futility, which is why she ain’t seeing Kate eye to eye never for ever

 

The Dreaming was criticized for being too complex and ruining her commercial career. Solar Power was panned for being a dud.

Obviously The Dreaming and Solar Power are too different records, which makes it even weirder that the reception of those albums and the discourse around them were so similar. You don’t get to discredit SP like that tho, it was also Lorde’s first time being actually credited as a producer and that album has actually some pretty consistent and important political points about climate crisis. Labeling it as “goop futility” just goes to show how little attention you paid on its subject matter and that is the main problem with the SP bandwagon that annoys me. Not to mention that it is a BIG reach to claim that every song on TD is a big political statement because that’s literally not the case at all. Some of it was literally just Kate Bush high as **** with a Fairlight CMI.

 

While The Dreaming was criticized for doing too much, Solar Power was criticized for doing too little. But who knows if in 30 years from now Solar Power will be looked at as this masterpiece of a record who was unfairly judged on its release? I bet no one in 1928 would think that about The Dreaming.

 

 Even still, my point from the beginning is that if we’re looking for “this generation’s Kate Bush” in terms of music, we’re never going to find one. This generation’s Kate Bush is someone who had a similar status as an artist, a similar career trajectory and a similar impact. In this case, Lorde is the front runner. None of the other Alt girls are close to Kate’s level during her time like Lorde is. 

[Raptus]

2 hours ago, Mikeymoonshine said:

Like fair enough, Bjork was inspired by Kate but even then their music is very different. 

No she wasn't. Tori Amos and Fiona maybe, but not Bjork.

[Raptus]

41 minutes ago, conquxror said:

While The Dreaming was criticized for doing too much, Solar Power was criticized for doing too little. But who knows if in 30 years from now Solar Power will be looked at as this masterpiece of a record who was unfairly judged on its release? I bet no one in 1928 would think that about The Dreaming.

It won't.

[liquiddiamonds]

1 hour ago, conquxror said:

and important political points about climate crisis.

literally one song in the whole project. she spends more time "othering" other women than about the environment. most of the album is introspection with little interesting imagery. she dropped joni mitchell as a source for the record and we didnt hear that either. it's not bandwagon

 

1 hour ago, conquxror said:

Not to mention that it is a BIG reach to claim that every song on TD is a big political statement because that’s literally not the case at all. Some of it was literally just Kate Bush high as **** with a Fairlight CMI.

Kate was a smoker, but the dreaming is a highly subversive record. there goes a tenner, pull out the pin, the dreaming, the night of the swallow are all straight up political songs. the later is even genius in how it incorporates irish folk music to subvert its narrative about lovers parting away (for a political mission). that's 4/10 songs in the whole album. She was already showing signs that she wanted to follow this direction when she chose breathing and army dreamers as singles for never for ever, that album's two most political songs. Sat in your lap, Leave it open and Suspended in gaffa are about the extistential human quest for knowledge - as receptors, as wanting to see something that they can't yet (via knowledge, spirituality), and how unsettling that can be. All the Love and Houdini are the only ones that Bush explores themes that are more personal regarding lonesomeness and loss. On top of that we have a highly unsettling percussive production, incorporating unusual dynamics and non-linear pop songwriting. How could that become a successful mix in the early-80s, new romantic/jangle-pop taken british mainstream music? No wonder both Bush and Peter Gabriel would find themselves at home from the mid-80s onwards when the market moved from that and they refound mainstream acceptance. There's a beautiful piece on The Quietus about the subversion of The Dreaming that was published around 2012 or 2013.

 

Lorde doesn't have this range. She dropped a jack johson record, with little innovation as far as production goes, and didn't chalenge the mainstream in any way (not even her previous records). Good for her: she's not this artist. Her fans hyped her as that when Melodrama was just a (very good) pop record. It was way more indebted to pop music than alternative. This Kate Bush archetype makes no favor to either of them, because when you detail their discographies the comparisons don't hold up. The current market wouldn't be open to an artist as conceptual as Kate Bush was during her prime. Look at artists like Florence and Bat for Lashes, who followed Kate in building conceptual records during the late-2000s and 2010s, and how out of place they feel with current market trends. Kate, Fiona and Scott Walker are mostly in a league of themselves as teen idols that grew to become more and more experimental in building their own sonic worlds. I'm pretty sure you don't think Billie Eilish is a Kate successor, but she did everything that Lorde has done that would make you consider "our Kate Bush", except being a foreigner lol This is what Caroline is pointing out too: when you go beyond the white, alternative archetype it doesn't hold up. Kate would never drop Bunny is a Rider or Billions - and in that case I love Caroline for that.

Edited January 15, 2023 by liquiddiamonds

[Mikeymoonshine]

1 hour ago, Raptus said:

No she wasn't. Tori Amos and Fiona maybe, but not Bjork.

What are you talking about? Bjork has openly stanned Kate for years, she listed The Dreaming among her favourite albums, she's criticised criticism of Kate and compared it to criticism of herself. She's praised Kate for being a music producer as well as a songwriter. It's obvious Bjork is inspired by Kate but as I said I don't think the kind of music they create is actually simmilar at all for the most part. Bjork is inspired by Kate's talent and creativity mostly but their sounds are very different. 

[Kevin Parker]

5 minutes ago, Mikeymoonshine said:

What are you talking about? Bjork has openly stanned Kate for years, she listed The Dreaming among her favourite albums, she's criticised criticism of Kate and compared it to criticism of herself. She's praised Kate for being a music producer as well as a songwriter. It's obvious Bjork is inspired by Kate but as I said I don't think the kind of music they create is actually simmilar at all for the most part. Bjork is inspired by Kate's talent and creativity mostly but their sounds are very different. 

This  That user thought they did smth

[conquxror]

1 hour ago, Raptus said:

It won't.

And how do you know that? Like I said, I bet no one in 1982 thought that record would ever be looked at as something positive lol I recommend you read any original reviews from The Dreaming, some critics were literally calling it unlistenable. Every review of Lorde’s tour has dedicated at least one paragraph about how the album makes more sense with time. I bet once she releases more albums Solar Power will be looked at with more consideration. 

 

1 hour ago, liquiddiamonds said:

Kate was a smoker, but the dreaming is a highly subversive record. there goes a tenner, pull out the pin, the dreaming, the night of the swallow are all straight up political songs

I never said it wasn’t. But none of Kate’s work is supposed to represent any political statement like some people claim because, contrary to popular belief, she never really was a part of these conversations. In her own words, she doesn’t understand it — in fact, it took literally YEARS for her to clarify she’s not a tori. I bet she was always focused on the storytelling rather then the political message of these songs, even though they intrinsically connect. The Dreaming is not my favorite project of hers and I still don’t fully understand her intentions with this record, but there’s literally no point in comparing the content of this album with that of Solar Power because these are MILES AWAY from ever connecting in that way. That doesn’t change my initial point that the reception of these two records were almost the same and both represented very odd turning points in these artists catalogues — I guess we’re just gonna have to wait and see if she’ll be able to recover like Kate did. Like I’ve said, we’re never going to find “these generation’s Kate Bush” if you’re looking for music similarities. The conversation should be about impact and public image. 

 

1 hour ago, liquiddiamonds said:

Lorde doesn't have this range. She dropped a jack johson record, with little innovation as far as production goes, and didn't chalenge the mainstream in any way (not even her previous records)

Not every record needs to be a game changer in the industry; I’m sure that clearly wasn’t Lorde’s intentions with SP. But to say that her previous records didn’t change the mainstream in any way is just turning a blind eye out of pettiness. “Royals” was the first song in 16 years by a woman to top the alternative charts, “Pure Heroine” is regarded as one of the shapeshifters of the 2010s. Lorde and Lana del Rey are literally the two names mentioned when talking about the turning point in the music industry during those early years, they literally brought mainstream minimalism back. You might consider Melodrama just a great pop record but in the real world that is one of the most acclaimed records of the decade that became the bar for every pop album by a female artist ever since — cut to everyone commenting “this is her melodrama” every time a new album is about to drop. It’s not fair to discredit Lorde’s impact in the industry due to ONE mid album — especially when every single new artist nowadays credits her as an inspiration somehow, including FINNEAS talking about how Billie is inspired by Lorde. 

 

1 hour ago, liquiddiamonds said:

I'm pretty sure you don't think Billie Eilish is a Kate successor, but she did everything that Lorde has done that would make you consider "our Kate Bush", except being a foreigner lo

I’m not sure how Billie Eilish changed the industry in any way to be considered that. I know Solar Power caused amnesia on some people but Lorde has actually been seen as a music visionary and I never saw that kind of comment about Billie. 

 

In regards to Caroline, I love her but the comparison is so dumb and it just goes to show how little people know about Kate.

[liquiddiamonds]

38 minutes ago, conquxror said:

I never said it wasn’t. But none of Kate’s work is supposed to represent any political statement like some people claim because, contrary to popular belief, she never really was a part of these conversations. In her own words, she doesn’t understand it — in fact, it took literally YEARS for her to clarify she’s not a tori. I bet she was always focused on the storytelling rather then the political message of these songs, even though they intrinsically connect

Breathing is literally about Cold War paranoia with radiation and nuclear welfare. Kate Bush was brought to executives by David Gilmour. She was raised on literature and 70s progressive music. Her music was never politically feminist, which is the main difference between her and the lyrical subjects of Tori Amos - whose lyrics went deep into gender politics and pushing against the patriarchy. Her music was also never protest music. There are layers to politics in music, which early-80s Kate had plenty:

 

Quote

The civilized keep alive the territorial war
(See the light ram through the gaps in the land)
Erase the race that claim the place and say we dig for ore
Or dangle devils in a bottle and push them from the pull of the bush

These are the lyrics of one of the verses of The Dreaming title-track. How is that not political? she's even being more political than the usual western pop singer by calling out british colonialism in aboriginal australia  You're confusing Kate staying away from commenting domestic politics in interviews to her music lacking politics. Not the same thing.

38 minutes ago, conquxror said:

Melodrama just a great pop record but in the real world that is one of the most acclaimed records of the decade that became the bar for every pop album by a female artist ever since

A great pop record can be one of the greatest records of its decade. I never said it couldn't. I just don't see what's so alternative in Melodrama. Which envelopes was it pushing? Kate made a career off of it. Lorde brought indie minimalism to the mainstream when the likes of James Blake and The xx were doing years before she became a thing. She totally deserves credits for that shift in 2013, but Kate broke off from the sound she debuted with quite quickly, in the two years to be exact, and she moved on to more experimental sounds, which hasn't been the Lorde route. She has became more and more accessible. It's givin Lorde's stans calling SP her Extraordinary Machine, when that album was actually acclaimed and an important stepping stone to the more percussive/jazzy approach Fiona would take for her next two records. 

 

38 minutes ago, conquxror said:

’m not sure how Billie Eilish changed the industry in any way to be considered that. I know Solar Power caused amnesia on some people but Lorde has actually been seen as a music visionary and I never saw that kind of comment about Billie. 

Just like Bowie praised Lorde, Thom Yorke, a visionary himself, has praised Billie Eilish as the only artist doing something interesting in music right now. James Blake, one of Lorde's main influences on her sound, has covered Billie for his own projects. Celebrated critic and Village Voice founder Robert Christgau has named her debut album probably the best album made by a teenager ever. Just like Lorde Billie has also shifted the mainstream and has singers coming up because of her influence. Like I said: everything Lorde has achieved Billie also did, but you dont wanna call her a Kate baby just from personal bias. It's just so transparent lol 

 

Solar Power wont ever get The Dreaming treatment, because it doesnt have the content for that. The fact you're stripping everything, every detail from both records to arrive at the common "both panned with previously acclaimed works" is evidence of that. 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by liquiddiamonds

[FightDragonsWithMe]

7 hours ago, 1000 forms of queer said:

is this sarcasm or.. what were u smoking girlie

Yes it's sarcasm 

[Mikeymoonshine]

I am a Solar Power defender but come on guys it's not comparable to The Dreaming. 

 

The SP hate train was overblown but the album is still Lorde's weakest effort. The Dreaming is a masterpiece and is considered one of Kate's best albums today. 

 

The Dreaming used brand new technology where as SP has a retro sound retro looking back at early 00s music, the dreaming got mixed reviews specifically for being "too weird", it actually did get some good reviews at the time from critics that could see the brilliance of it. The Dreaming has been cited by Bjork and Big Boi as being among their favourite albums. I don't see SP getting the same, it was never considered "too out there". 

[Sexyzinger]

On 1/13/2023 at 9:26 PM, lonnie said:

I understand where she's coming from and it's kind of crazy that no (white) woman that's done something that would be considered alternative (Bjork, Tori, Fiona, Imogen, P.J. etc) has escaped the Kate Bush comparisons which makes sense the way she swung open that door but whew

Lana

[popularmoonlight]

Not very long before this comment by her, I watched a Kate Bush performance and immediatly thought how Caroline gets a lot of inspiration from her. From her singing style all the way to the production and lyrics 

[So.. what now]

[Bussea]

the thesis papers in here

[lonnie]

On 1/16/2023 at 9:25 AM, Sexyzinger said:

Lana

Took me two seconds:

https://www.elle.com/uk/life-and-culture/culture/news/a35897/watch-lana-del-rey-dance-cherry/

 

As I said literally no white woman that made/makes music that would be alternative has escaped the comparisons. It's mostly lazy, some of it is true because Kate truly did open a door like very few in music ever have, but it happens all the time and has happened since the 80s

[Shimenawa]

She's more like Imogen Heap

 

She's still amazing

[Katamari]

lorde needs to hurry and comeback cuz the girls are getting comfortable

[JoeAg]

I know this thread is months ago but I just started thinking about this again out of the blue...

 

I really love how Caroline responded to this, I think it showed a lot of maturity. quite frankly, none of the aforementioned people can wholly be considered a "new generation Kate Bush" because, like Caroline said, Kate is this generation's Kate. sure, there are certain similarities which permeate and seem truly notable—Billie and Lorde being bright and artsy and achieving similar success at a young age, FKA twigs and Björk expanding upon some highly forward-thinking and experimental textures starting early on in their careers, Tori and Fiona reflecting the piano-driven ethos of Kate's more vulnerable moments, Caroline and Florence loving the pop aspects and focusing on incredibly powerful vocal performances, Bat for Lashes and Banks focusing on moody and ethereal melodrama, Perfume Genius and Anohni infusing their queer perspectives with Kate's arthouse influences, Joanna and St. Vincent bringing Kate's technical virtuosity to the forefront of indie music, Mitski and Weyes Blood being wizards of indelible melodic perfection, Lana and Marina embracing beauty and lyricism as a means to revolution, PJ and Kimbra just in general being badasses with their own respective strange career trajectories focused on pure possibility...—but Kate is her own artist and all of these artists are their own artists creating their own paths. they all bring something unique to the table, just as Kate did. and that's where I think the comparisons should end in published articles. that they're all independent spirits forging their own paths, and that is something Kate created room for in popular music

 

sure, it's always a huge compliment to be compared to a prodigious genius like Kate, but it shouldn't feel limiting. I think all of the aforementioned artists are brilliant in their own rights, and should be acclaimed for diverging from the straightlaced pop norm  in fact, I can see all of the above being listed as influences for younger artists (well... me included! I listen and am inspired by all of the above, as it were)

Edited October 11, 2023 by JoeAg