discussion Why Are Meat Eaters So Bad In Debates?

[Hitchhiker]

On 12/5/2022 at 6:17 AM, Taylucifer said:

i actually fully agree with vegans even though i still eat white meat  

 

i just don't think i can give up chicken and seafood 

This actually, even if I do cut off meat and poultry I can’t let go of seafood 

[terrorblade]

On 12/5/2022 at 7:49 AM, Digitalism said:

Because they simple don't care about what vegans say

[Scars]

My two cents is that these debates can feel superficial at times because people often focus on ganging up on individual choices rather than discuss the relevance of dismantling systemic dynamics intrinsic to late-stage capitalism. 

 

 

[FOCK]

5 hours ago, Scars said:

My two cents is that these debates can feel superficial at times because people often focus on ganging up on individual choices rather than discuss the relevance of dismantling systemic dynamics intrinsic to late-stage capitalism. 

 

 

It’s the wealthiest nations that represent that highest consumption of animal products, including luxury goods, dead animals are a status symbol. Animal based products are some of the most expensive on the market, with the shortest shelf life, meat production & industrial fishing harms the most vulnerable communities & environments & the amount of crops & water required to maintain this system could end world hunger several times over if reconsidered. Not to mention that these industries need to be consistently bailed out through tax dollars & subsidies in order to even remain viable. Also fun fact, in the US, the largest growing demographic of Vegans are POC women.  
 

Veganism advocates for harm reduction wherever feasible, for all sentient beings, yes, including humans. Several vegan organisations work with willing farmers to assist in feasible transitions to plant-based alternatives. 
 

Veganism is anti-capitalist at its logical conclusion & is the most sincere leftist position one can take. 
 

The people touting “personal choice” here are missing that it stops being a “personal choice” when a victim is involved. The choice isn’t personal, it has severe & irreversible consequences, on the Earth, the animals, indigenous & rural populations, & even mentally on slaughter house workers - not even going into what types of people that industry attracts & how it’s a breeding ground for psychopaths who go on to commit terrible crime, undocumented workers being taken advantage of, or how high the rate of suicide and domestic abuse is among that cohort.
 

There is just nothing good enough to justify a fleeting 10 mins of “taste”, when we’re literally farming ourselves into oblivion. If you want to still enjoy meat, that’s fine - push for lab grown technology. There’s even a method of milk production that already exists that does not require any cows to be harmed. These technologies exist. It’s nothing other than corporate greed & indoctrination that keeps us using these archaic methods & needlessly destroying our one habitable planet & the answer is to say enough & shop alternatives. It does work, too, the dairy industry is hurting & there are more alternatives than ever. 

[ninasayers]

On 12/5/2022 at 3:21 PM, Dephira said:

They realize that they have 0 logical, rational or ethical arguments for their position. As a human reaction, instead of admitting their own faults, they would rather lash out and insult people who don't eat meat. 

 

On 12/4/2022 at 11:57 PM, byzantium said:

If you are going to lecture me on the virtues of vegan diets, yet still drive a car you better be ready to get some humility. 

[FOCK]

3 hours ago, BadMonster said:

Cows aren't harmed if they're milked, lmao.

…

Tell me you don’t know anything about the dairy industry, without telling me you don’t know anything about the dairy industry. 
 

I’d argue dairy cows suffer the most of all animals humans consume & they are also the most environmentally destructive. 
 

A cow lives up to 20 years naturally, dairy cows are lucky to reach 5. Dairy cows are forcibly impregnated by being fisted, in order to start producing milk (which surprise, like all mammals, the body produces for their young).

Their calves are then immediately ripped away and confined in small pens, so that farmers can steal their milk, with the male calves being sent to immediate slaughter for veil. The cows will be milked and forcibly impregnated in an endless, torturous cycle for about 4-5 years, or until their knees end up giving in and they’re limp, diseased, forced to spend most their lives standing in their own faeces & experiencing painful udder complications due to the feed and chemicals they’re pumped with, used to maximise milk production far more than what they would naturally produce. 
 

Once they can no longer serve a milking purpose, their already miserable lives are cut incredibly short and they’re sent to the slaughter house for burgers, pet food, glue or leather, where they witness, hear and smell the slaughter of their kind around them. And they need a ridiculous amount of land and water & their methane is more harmful and long lasting than Co2. 
 

The “huge parts” you say we need to rewild and give back to nature are occupied… by cows. The majority of viable land on earth is occupied by… cows. An estimate of 77% actually.
 

The dairy industry spends billions annually on PR & lobbying, running false health benefits & indoctrinating people from infancy. Dairy is responsible for a number of health complications, contrary to its advertising & manufactured “wholesome” image. 
 

The meat reduction argument is like saying “I only fund rape, murder, climate destruction and torture sometimes”. If you’ve proven you’re able to forego funding this industry, there is no reason not to commit & attempts at justifying it are… hallow.

 

tldr: Meat eaters are bad at debates because they actually don't know what they're talking about and attempt to debate/claim things they've never even looked into or considered in good faith. 
 

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by FOCK

[spree]

19 hours ago, Codex said:

tbf my sister’s ex husband is a radical vegan, but also a bodybuilder. He has HUGE muscles from all the vegan protein powder milkshakes he drinks.

 

I personally eat meat, but I know that vegans are right about the mass farming meat industry being immoral. If any of the angry meat eaters watched a single slaughterhouse video, they would be traumatized, but instead they lash out at vegans. If I had more money, I would eat exclusively from ethical farms, but I don’t have the money, and I don’t like meat substitutes. If I eat a meal without meat I feel like it was just a snack… so I avoid any videos about veganism, because it’s not like everyday people can make much of a difference against these huge corporations that are causing climate change, and governments who refuse to act. I’m not going to ruin my quality of life to make 0 impact on the world.

I’m just being an ass. I fully know how traumatizing it is to watch a slaughterhouse video. But as a bodybuilder…I just don’t have time to be vegan. I work basically two full time jobs, relationship, etc…am I supposed to obsessively figure out my vegan diet cuz of morals or the environment? Sounds nice, but I don’t think so. I like meat too much. And I like big muscles. Beans will only go so far, and i already eat a lot of beans. 

[GraceRandolph]

5 hours ago, FOCK said:

…

Tell me you don’t know anything about the dairy industry, without telling me you don’t know anything about the dairy industry. 
 

I’d argue dairy cows suffer the most of all animals humans consume & they are also the most environmentally destructive. 
 

A cow lives up to 20 years naturally, dairy cows are lucky to reach 5. Dairy cows are forcibly impregnated by being fisted, in order to start producing milk (which surprise, like all mammals, the body produces for their young).

Their calves are then immediately ripped away and confined in small pens, so that farmers can steal their milk, with the male calves being sent to immediate slaughter for veil. The cows will be milked and forcibly impregnated in an endless, torturous cycle for about 4-5 years, or until their knees end up giving in and they’re limp, diseased, forced to spend most their lives standing in their own faeces & experiencing painful udder complications due to the feed and chemicals they’re pumped with, used to maximise milk production far more than what they would naturally produce. 
 

Once they can no longer serve a milking purpose, their already miserable lives are cut incredibly short and they’re sent to the slaughter house for burgers, pet food, glue or leather, where they witness, hear and smell the slaughter of their kind around them. And they need a ridiculous amount of land and water & their methane is more harmful and long lasting than Co2. 
 

The “huge parts” you say we need to rewild and give back to nature are occupied… by cows. The majority of viable land on earth is occupied by… cows. An estimate of 77% actually.
 

The dairy industry spends billions annually on PR & lobbying, running false health benefits & indoctrinating people from infancy. Dairy is responsible for a number of health complications, contrary to its advertising & manufactured “wholesome” image. 
 

The meat reduction argument is like saying “I only fund rape, murder, climate destruction and torture sometimes”. If you’ve proven you’re able to forego funding this industry, there is no reason not to commit & attempts at justifying it are… hallow.

 

tldr: Meat eaters are bad at debates because they actually don't know what they're talking about and attempt to debate/claim things they've never even looked into or considered in good faith. 
 

 

Thank you for correcting the record

[Scars]

On 12/8/2022 at 8:13 PM, FOCK said:

Veganism is anti-capitalist at its logical conclusion & is the most sincere leftist position one can take. 
 

The people touting “personal choice” here are missing that it stops being a “personal choice” when a victim is involved. The choice isn’t personal, it has severe & irreversible consequences, on the Earth, the animals, indigenous & rural populations, & even mentally on slaughter house workers - not even going into what types of people that industry attracts & how it’s a breeding ground for psychopaths who go on to commit terrible crime, undocumented workers being taken advantage of, or how high the rate of suicide and domestic abuse is among that cohort.

That wasn't quite exactly where I was coming from, especially with the Chico Mendes quote.

 

I'm familiar the stats you provided and yes, veganism can and should be a powerful anti-capitalist tool, especially in western societies, however it's important to point out veganism has been co-opted by green capitalism for the past decades and that has increasingly influenced the rise of an apolitical vegan identity detached to it's radical roots and a collective struggle. Those individual identities often sees environmentalism through neoliberal lens touting green-washed capitalist views.

 

I mean, vegan-washed oppression is clearly an elephant in the room when we see israeli industries in occupied Palestine land claiming to be cruelty-free and several western orgs on record praising Israel for being an example on veganism to the world. 

 

Well, there isn't really a complete ethical way of living in a capitalist society and I'm not claiming you particularly hold green capitalist ideals of course, but OP specifically asked a question about debates around meat and I expressed my current frustrations with the directions those discourses usually goes lately. Vegan takes that endorses non-animal consumption without explicitly advocating for the abolishment of capitalist structures are doomed to be co-opted by orientalism, classism and elitism and become an ally for the perpetuation of the status quo of those hoarding wealth rather than a revolutionary movement important to the proposal of impactful ways to protect the environment and disenfranchised groups, including indigenous populations, rural families, populations served with local family farming, ethnic traditional communities and folk religions from the Global South that have (and still have) ethically consumed meat throughout history. 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Scars

[Communion]

On 12/8/2022 at 7:02 PM, BadMonster said:

Cows aren't harmed if they're milked, lmao.

 

The answer to save this planet is population control/reduction... a population of 1 billion is more than enough. We have to give huge parts back to nature, so other species can thrive again. We don't have to become vegan or vegetarian, we're not herbivores, we need to make sure there's a better balance by decreasing our own population

Y'all being so dense you turn your nose up at veganism but then endorse mass genocide. 

 

No, "soy nuggets is a worse choice than population control" is not a logic view outside of contrarians.

[Aethereal]

Vegans and non-Vegans who want to protect all animals are stupid. Hyenas and Wild Dogs should go. Hyenas have one the biggest biting force and other advantages over wolves and still eat their prey alive whereas wolves try to kill the prey first.  We are told to NOT interact with the animals world when a zebra is getting eaten alive so I see no reason trying to save some animals that are going extinct. 

 

I agree that massive meat eating should stop with this heavy population increase we will running out of animals it's only a matter of few decades. 

[If U Seek Amy]

I personally just literally could not care less. You can be right 100% about everything and I do not care and that is likely how many feel. I am not going to starve myself of every possible thing I enjoy in the world simply to do a very minor amount of good. Go worry about all the other things far more polluting first

[youcallingmyname]

Debate about what? The world is doomed either way, at least I’ll enjoy my time here eating my carne asada, tamales & chicken tacos. Vegans are simply annoying, especially white vegans who turn their nose up at POC who have eaten meat their entire life & it’s apart of their culture. 

[fountain]

Well when your viewpoint is illogical, your argument inevitably is. 

[AccioMiley]

I eat meat and i really dont care what vegans say 

[Delirious]

Honestly never liked eating meat so transitioning was easy for me except now im contemplating to going back to eggs and dairy

 

or maybe i can grow my own animals and eat them when they die peacefully uncaged 

[Delirious]

A lot of people saying they dont care etc are 100% valid.

 

in my eyes, why should you sacrifice something when the rest of the world doesnt imo. If the world is ending so be it, as long as EVERYONE else falls with it. 
 

the world is too selfish and thats just the way it is. Its like doing a group assignment and theres always those people who dont do anything in it because they think why should i.

 

or when you live with roomates and noone washes their dishes.