base talk Beyonce and writing credits: Reason why she can’t win AOTY?

[Mr. Mendes]

Everyone seriously needs to learn that when sampling is involved, the list of writers you see does not mean all of those people actually wrote the song on Beyonce's album. She credits the writers of the song she samples. This is not hard to comprehend. 

[Blue Rose]

4 hours ago, MissedTheTrain said:

Kelly doesn't take writing credit on songs she wasn't a part of writing though.  She's friends with a lot of songwriters and has a lot of respect for them and the fact that that's their only income. She is always 100% transparent about the songs she records and her involvement. 

 

She talks more about it here, at 1:17ish

 

 

 

And again here, at 9:20ish.  As she says, there are a good handful of songs in her discography that she actually did change a line or two on, but didn't take credit because the song was already great and she didn't want to take a cut from the writers.

 

 

Except Ive never said or insinuated that Kelly stole credits. I was pointing out to that troll who thinks Bey using demos was stealing, that other artists do that too. That’s why songs like Halo got passed around until it found a home. 

 

But this is not how it works, like at all. Kelly is the only one that operates like this. If you’ve had a hand in the final version of the song, then you deserve a credit. If you choose not to take the credit, that’s a personal matter.
Now Beyoncé getting a credit for her contributions, big or small, doesn’t mean she doesn’t respect songwriters or stealing from their only income. Everyone who has worked with her has nothing but praise for her, and Bey pays extremely generously upfront (TS Madison just said she couldn’t believe how much she got for her sample on Cozy. The Clark Sisters lawyers were singing her praise, which means they also got a huge check.) That money beats any residuals from streams or sales where 85% goes to the label anyway. 
 

Lastly, songwriting shares are not divided equally. Whether or not Bey or any other artist gets a writing credit, doesn’t mean a particular songwriter will be paid less. In most cases, it doesn’t affect them at all

Edited October 9, 2022 by Blue Rose

[NausAllien]

The difference between Kelly, Whitney, Celine, etc. is that they NEVER took credits for things they didn't do.

 

Beyoncé has been taking credit for things she didn't do. Like making it seem like she co-wrote "Irreplaceable" with Ne-Yo, when his version is almost the same in terms of lyrics, melody and composition than Beyoncé's final version (even poor Ne-Yo said it was a co-write because he didn't want to end up on her bad side). Or how she changed a word in "Smash Into You" and that was enough for her to claim co-writing credit.

 

It just so problematic, I don't understand why the Hive doesn't get it.

 

[NausAllien]

1 hour ago, Mr. Mendes said:

Everyone seriously needs to learn that when sampling is involved, the list of writers you see does not mean all of those people actually wrote the song on Beyonce's album. She credits the writers of the song she samples. This is not hard to comprehend. 

LMAO! This is some Olympics level mental gymnastics you're doing!

 

If a piece of another song's melody, a piece of another song's lyrics, or an excerpt of that song is used, then the people who wrote that song ARE entitled to a co-writing credit and ARE co-writers of the song. It doesn't matter if they weren't part of Beyoncé's writing camp. Their work was used to create Beyoncé's new work and thus they ARE co-writers of that project.

 

[MissedTheTrain]

44 minutes ago, Blue Rose said:

Except Ive never said or insinuated that Kelly stole credits. I was pointing out to that troll who thinks Bey using demos was stealing, that other artists do that too. That’s why songs like Halo got passed around until it found a home. 

 

But this is not how it works, like at all. Kelly is the only one that operates like this. If you’ve had a hand in the final version of the song, then you deserve a credit. If you choose not to take the credit, that’s a personal matter.
Now Beyoncé getting a credit for her contributions, big or small, doesn’t mean she doesn’t respect songwriters or stealing from their only income. Everyone who has worked with her has nothing but praise for her, and Bey pays extremely generously upfront (TS Madison just said she couldn’t believe how much she got for her sample on Cozy. The Clark Sisters lawyers were singing her praise, which means they also got a huge check.) That money beats any residuals from streams or sales where 85% goes to the label anyway. 
 

Lastly, songwriting shares are not divided equally. Whether or not Bey or any other artist gets a writing credit, doesn’t mean a particular songwriter will be paid less. In most cases, it doesn’t affect them at all

I do agree that in situations like Kelly described, that was her personal decision…she could have technically taken credit if she wanted to on songs like Stronger that she rewrote lyrics on.  
 

I think on one hand, if you did have hand in the lyrics or basic melody of the song, a songwriting credit is due.  But I don’t think it’s necessarily fair to take a songwriting credit for interpretation, which is something different from songwriting.  Adding melisma/runs to bits of the song. For example, think of the amount of people who have covered Christmas staples like Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas…most artists who have recorded it have done it very differently from the original, and they’re pretty much all singing it their own way, adding their own little melodic changes here and there and putting their own spin on it.  But you never see anyone adding their name to the writing credits….rightfully so, because they didn’t actually have a hand in writing the basic composition.  And that goes for almost every song that’s been recorded as a cover.  As someone who does have an immense respect for a Beyoncé as an artist, that is one thing that has bugged me a bit about songs like Smash Into You and Irreplaceable, where we’ve heard the original version and the song is no different from a basic songwriting perspective.

 

And true, songwriting credits are not divided equally.  But whenever someone else comes into the mix, it does take a cut (no matter how small) from the percentage that the other writers have on it, since they all have to add up to the full percentage.  And whatever, maybe some writers are fine with it if it means they get a cut with a big artist.  But the whole concept of some artists taking a songwriting credit without true songwriting involvement (which isn’t just Beyoncé, there are a lot of others who do the same thing, which prompted a petition from some big writers aimed towards labels in recent years) is something that I wish would change.

[Blue Rose]

13 minutes ago, MissedTheTrain said:

I do agree that in situations like Kelly described, that was her personal decision…she could have technically taken credit if she wanted to on songs like Stronger that she rewrote lyrics on.  
 

I think on one hand, if you did have hand in the lyrics or basic melody of the song, a songwriting credit is due.  But I don’t think it’s necessarily fair to take a songwriting credit for interpretation, which is something different from songwriting.  Adding melisma/runs to bits of the song. For example, think of the amount of people who have covered Christmas staples like Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas…most artists who have recorded it have done it very differently from the original, and they’re pretty much all singing it their own way, adding their own little melodic changes here and there and putting their own spin on it.  But you never see anyone adding their name to the writing credits….rightfully so, because they didn’t actually have a hand in writing the basic composition.  And that goes for almost every song that’s been recorded as a cover.  As someone who does have an immense respect for a Beyoncé as an artist, that is one thing that has bugged me a bit about songs like Smash Into You and Irreplaceable, where we’ve heard the original version and the song is no different from a basic songwriting perspective.

 

And true, songwriting credits are not divided equally.  But whenever someone else comes into the mix, it does take a cut (no matter how small) from the percentage that the other writers have on it, since they all have to add up to the full percentage.  And whatever, maybe some writers are fine with it if it means they get a cut with a big artist.  But the whole concept of some artists taking a songwriting credit without true songwriting involvement (which isn’t just Beyoncé, there are a lot of others who do the same thing, which prompted a petition from some big writers aimed towards labels in recent years) is something that I wish would change.

Discussing the intricacies of accreditation and songwriting laws will always be up to your own interpretation. Bey has released covers where she didn’t take any credits. Clearly every situation is different, that’s why there are lawyers involved in every case.  
And Bey literally just gave The Freds a huge credit for Im Too Sexy when she didn’t need to. Doesn’t that show how much she respects songwriters? 
The biggest girl group in the world, Blackpink, just used a Pon De Replay interpolation on Pink Venom, and none of the writers got credited. And there’s no case to be had. 

[FolkLover1989]

Imagine Beyoncé winning AOTY and 300 people on stage. 

 

Yeah, Adele is winning. Giving 300 trophies of AOTY for a single album. Be serious

[Ascareus Kratos]

On 10/6/2022 at 8:15 PM, supertiffany said:

everytime Beyonce is criticized it's called racism

 

but silence when she STEALS songwriting credits.

 

 

remember when she SOLELY CLAIMED she wrote Irreplaceable lol

Thisss.

[AxelFox]

Some of you are so stupid the ground underneath you reeks, my god

[BlackStar_93]

On 10/6/2022 at 9:45 AM, Paola Bracho said:

It's good to know that AOTY is about the amount of people worked on that album and not about the quality of music. Now all the wins by Swift make sense!

Girl, what on earth are you talking about? 

 

Folklore won AOTY and has three primary producers/songwriters: Taylor, Jack, and Aaron. The only exceptions are Exile which includes Justin Vernon and 'William Bowery' as writers, as well as Betty. The rest of the tracks are either Taylor/Aaron, or Taylor/Jack. I suggest you look at the Folklore credits on Wikipedia vs the Renaissance ones - one of these is not like the other. 

 

If you're going to make sweeping assumptions, at least make it factual. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by BlackStar_93

[Paola Bracho]

2 hours ago, BlackStar_93 said:

Girl, what on earth are you talking about? 

 

Folklore won AOTY and has three primary producers/songwriters: Taylor, Jack, and Aaron. The only exceptions are Exile which includes Justin Vernon and 'William Bowery' as writers, as well as Betty. The rest of the tracks are either Taylor/Aaron, or Taylor/Jack. I suggest you look at the Folklore credits on Wikipedia vs the Renaissance ones - one of these is not like the other. 

 

If you're going to make sweeping assumptions, at least make it factual. 

You didn't get what I said. Try again and make sure you read the comments above mine.

[Riot]

On 10/10/2022 at 7:28 AM, FolkLover1989 said:

Imagine Beyoncé winning AOTY and 300 people on stage. 

 

Yeah, Adele is winning. Giving 300 trophies of AOTY for a single album. Be serious

2. Album Of The Year
Award to Artist(s) and to Featured Artist(s), Songwriter(s) of new material, Producer(s), Recording Engineer(s), Mixer(s) and Mastering Engineer(s).

*We Are - WINNER
Jon Batiste
Craig Adams, David Gauthier, Braedon Gautier, Brennon Gautier, Gospel Soul Children Choir, Hot 8 Brass Band, PJ Morton, Autumn Rowe, Zadie Smith, St. Augustine High School Marching 100 & Trombone Shorty, featured artists; Jon Batiste, Mikey Freedom Hart, DJ Khalil, King Garbage, Kizzo, Sunny Levine, Nate Mercereau, David Pimentel, Ricky Reed, Autumn Rowe, Jahaan Sweet & Nick Waterhouse, producers; Jon Batiste, Russ Elevado, Mischa Kachkachishvili, Kizzo, Joseph Lorge, Manny Marroquin, Ken Oriole, David Pimentel, Ricky Reed, Jaclyn Sanchez, Matt Vertere, Marc Whitmore & Alex Williams, engineers/mixers; Andrae Alexander, Troy Andrews, Jon Batiste, Zach Cooper, Vic Dimotsis, Eric Frederic, Kizzo, Sunny Levine, Steve McEwan, PJ Morton, Autumn Rowe & Mavis Staples, songwriters; Michelle Mancini, mastering engineer

[Bang Up]

it's not about the amount of writers since there have been multiple AOTY winners with tons of writers. the problem is her reputation within the industry of being a credit stealer. there is nothing, and I mean nothing, people on the inside hate more than people, especially big names, who steal writing credits. it's a slap in the face to the writers and producers whose royalties get cut to make room for the artist's fraudulent credits. people like beyonce make enough money with other things, while the writers' only bag is what they write. you take part of their credit and you are directly cutting into their ability to pay their bills. people like beyonce steal credits just for the look of it. they want to be seen as an "artist" and it's selfish. if you want to have credits, write a damn song.

 

beyonce's PR team has done a great job at convincing her fans and parts of the public that she's an "artist", but the industry knows better than that. there really is no other explanation as to why one of the greatest entertainers of all time has not yet won AOTY. there's something going on BTS that keeps people from wanting to recognize her.

[Green]

If it was the number of credited people then Jon Batiste wouldn't have won over Olivia, Billie and Tony/Gaga

 

We Are - Jon Batiste

Craig Adams, David Gauthier, Braedon Gautier, Brennon Gautier, Gospel Soul Children Choir, Hot 8 Brass Band, PJ Morton, Autumn Rowe, Zadie Smith, St. Augustine High School Marching 100 & Trombone Shorty, featured artists; Jon Batiste, Mikey Freedom Hart, King Garbage, Kizzo, Sunny Levine, Nate Mercereau, David Pimentel, Ricky Reed, Autumn Rowe, Jahaan Sweet & Nick Waterhouse, producers; Batiste, Russ Elevado, Mischa Kachkachishvili, Kizzo, Joseph Lorge, Manny Marroquin, Pimentel, Reed, Jaclyn Sanchez, Matt Vertere, Marc Whitmore & Alex Williams, engineers/mixers; Andrae Alexander, Troy Andrews, Batiste, Zach Cooper, Vic Dimotsis, Eric Frederic, Kizzo, Levine, Steve McEwan, Morton, Rowe & Mavis Staples, songwriters; Michelle Mancini, mastering engineer

 

Happier Than Ever - Billie Eilish

Finneas, producer; Billie Eilish, Finneas & Rob Kinelski, engineers/mixers; Eilish & Finneas, songwriters; John Greenham & Dave Kutch, mastering engineers

 

Love for Sale - Tony Bennett & Lady Gaga

Dae Bennett, producer; Bennett, Josh Coleman & Billy Cumella, engineers/mixers; Greg Calbi & Steve Fallone, mastering engineers

 

Sour - Olivia Rodrigo Alexander 23, Daniel ***** & Olivia Rodrigo, producers; Ryan Linvill, Mitch McCarthy & Daniel *****, engineers/mixers; Daniel *****, Olivia Rodrigo, Taylor Swift, Jack Antonoff, Annie Clark, Josh Farro, Hayley Williams & Casey Smith, songwriters; Randy Merrill, mastering engineer

[Raava]

I don't think having that many collaborators does her harm. In fact, it may be part of her strategy to finally get an AOTY. A lot of those songwriters and producers are voting members of the awards, and they will obviously vote for her in order to also get a Grammy.

[BlackStar_93]

5 hours ago, Paola Bracho said:

You didn't get what I said. Try again and make sure you read the comments above mine.

You're right - please accept my apologies, I misinterpreted your post. 

[KevinKDC]

10 hours ago, Bang Up said:

it's not about the amount of writers since there have been multiple AOTY winners with tons of writers. the problem is her reputation within the industry of being a credit stealer. there is nothing, and I mean nothing, people on the inside hate more than people, especially big names, who steal writing credits. it's a slap in the face to the writers and producers whose royalties get cut to make room for the artist's fraudulent credits. people like beyonce make enough money with other things, while the writers' only bag is what they write. you take part of their credit and you are directly cutting into their ability to pay their bills. people like beyonce steal credits just for the look of it. they want to be seen as an "artist" and it's selfish. if you want to have credits, write a damn song.

 

beyonce's PR team has done a great job at convincing her fans and parts of the public that she's an "artist", but the industry knows better than that. there really is no other explanation as to why one of the greatest entertainers of all time has not yet won AOTY. there's something going on BTS that keeps people from wanting to recognize her.

Thank you for being one of the few that actually was on topic and adding value to the conversation.

 

This thread was never about how many writers there are on Beys albums, but the dark clouds surrounding her of allegedly taking credits when she didn’t deserve it.

The industry talks. 

[ExHuman]

We have 3 options here.

 

1st

Grammys are on decline they dont have enough budget to create +100 grammys for beyonce and company for AOTY.

 

2nd

She have bad reputation for stealing credits.

 

3rd

She played smart working with so many people who are voting members.

Edited October 13, 2022 by ExHuman

[supertiffany]

On 10/9/2022 at 12:43 PM, MissedTheTrain said:

I do agree that in situations like Kelly described, that was her personal decision…she could have technically taken credit if she wanted to on songs like Stronger that she rewrote lyrics on.  
 

I think on one hand, if you did have hand in the lyrics or basic melody of the song, a songwriting credit is due.  But I don’t think it’s necessarily fair to take a songwriting credit for interpretation, which is something different from songwriting.  Adding melisma/runs to bits of the song. For example, think of the amount of people who have covered Christmas staples like Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas…most artists who have recorded it have done it very differently from the original, and they’re pretty much all singing it their own way, adding their own little melodic changes here and there and putting their own spin on it.  But you never see anyone adding their name to the writing credits….rightfully so, because they didn’t actually have a hand in writing the basic composition.  And that goes for almost every song that’s been recorded as a cover.  As someone who does have an immense respect for a Beyoncé as an artist, that is one thing that has bugged me a bit about songs like Smash Into You and Irreplaceable, where we’ve heard the original version and the song is no different from a basic songwriting perspective.

 

And true, songwriting credits are not divided equally.  But whenever someone else comes into the mix, it does take a cut (no matter how small) from the percentage that the other writers have on it, since they all have to add up to the full percentage.  And whatever, maybe some writers are fine with it if it means they get a cut with a big artist.  But the whole concept of some artists taking a songwriting credit without true songwriting involvement (which isn’t just Beyoncé, there are a lot of others who do the same thing, which prompted a petition from some big writers aimed towards labels in recent years) is something that I wish would change.

 

 

THIS!

 

 

adding ooohsss and aahhhhhs should not credit you as a SONGWRITER. lol

[supertiffany]

5 minutes ago, ExHuman said:

We have 3 options here.

 

1st

Grammys are on decline they dont have enough budget to create +100 grammys for beyonce and company for AOTY.

 

2nd

She have bad reputation for stealing credits.

 

3rd

She played smart working with so many people who are voting members.

change

 

#1 with #2, the stealing is just really bad. Grammys have budget, but yeah it's really laughable to have 100 trophies for one award lol

[NausAllien]

I guess the consensus is that it doesn't matter the number of songwriters in her albums, but the fact she has a very negative reputation among songwriters for stealing writing credits and claiming writing credits with minimal contributions.

 

Other singers are more gracious and they don't claim writing credit even when they have a right to because they don't want to take a cut from the little money songwriters make and they have other sources of income like touring, which songwriters do not have. 

 

So the fact that Beyoncé just cares more about projecting an image of being an artist who writes her own songs about the well being of the people who write songs for her is what has caused many in the industry to have a negative opinion of her when it comes to songwriting.

 

[KevinKDC]

All in all I really hope she wins. The album is phenomenal.