discussion Do you support hijabs?

[Aren]

Of course not. Hijabs are the ultimate tool of female oppression and patriarchy.

[VOSS]

This is a tough question especially when phrased very broadly like this. I of course support people’s right to choose what they wear but you can’t ignore that many women don’t have a choice or that those who do genuinely choose to wear it are wearing a symbol of their inferiority to men in their religion.

[JoshSpears1805]

no, why is it only women that are meant to be 'modest' but men can do as they please?

[confide in me]

This question seems loaded tbh

[Rith]

no.

imagine thinking that hiding your hair is "freedom" 

[Communion]

5 hours ago, Weld_E said:

First of all the concept of ‘Islamaphobia’ is ridiculous and conceived to shield the religion from any valid criticism.

Do you think antisemitism is a ridiculous concept and meant to shield Judaism from theological criticism? 

[SmittenCake]

47 minutes ago, Rith said:

no.

imagine thinking that hiding your hair is "freedom" 

and some people think being nude is "freendom" or "empowering"

 

womp womp womp. everyone has their own choices and versions of whats freedom. 

[Weld_E]

44 minutes ago, Communion said:

Do you think antisemitism is a ridiculous concept and meant to shield Judaism from theological criticism? 

From a linguistic stand point, ‘antisemitism’ describes someone who is against jewish people, not necessarily Judaism itself. A correct equivalent would to call someone ‘antimuslim’ (someone who is hostile to Muslims), instead of abusing the absurd term “Islamaphobia”, which implies that someone has an irrational fear of an ideology that advocates its followers to do questionable things, like throwing LGBT+ people off rooftops. A gay person being afraid of that ideology is not irrational and makes total sense, and it would be reasonable for them to question such an ideology and be openly against it.

[Communion]

13 minutes ago, Weld_E said:

From a linguistic stand point, ‘antisemitism’ describes someone who is against jewish people, not necessarily Judaism itself. A correct equivalent would to call someone ‘antimuslim’ (someone who is hostile to Muslims), instead of abusing the absurd term “Islamaphobia

This is what you're attempting to do, just so you know:

 

Islamophobia denotes the prejudice that unfolds after Muslims experience racialization. 

"But Islam is not a race!". It's not a race, right, until Muslims experience racialization, just like Jewish people.

 

Arguing that you don't like the current, widely shared meaning of Islamophobia does not then mean that your largely incorrect understanding of the word can be projected onto the vast majority of people who use it.

 

Islamophobia is about the racialization of Muslim people *and people who appear Muslim*, not theological debate.

 

Please be serious for a second. Literally no one will walk away from these conversations questioning Islam when you and others decide to approach it like angry children who resent their family. Of course such feelings are valid to dislike Islam, but convincing arguments they do not make. 

 

"I'm not Islamophobic, it's common sense to hate savages!" isn't going to endear you to people whose understanding of islamophobia is the dehumanization of Muslims as a group of people - something you come off as doing because personal resentments to Islam drive your rhetoric.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Communion

[BlondGuts]

I mean idk…. The white saviour argument that’s it’s a woman’s choice to wear a hijab doesn’t paint the full picture. Sure, wearing a hijab might be a choice in a place like Paris or Chicago where there’s no law stating you have to versus a place like Saudi Arabia or Iran where women face abuse for not doing so. But even then I think it’s not really a choice because these women are brainwashed to do it growing up by their families/religion and like someone else said fear of parents/husbands/basically male family members. It’s a tough call to make honestly

[Jude]

Let people wear whatever they want. /thread

[Weld_E]

12 minutes ago, Communion said:

This is what you're attempting to do, just so you know:

This comparison is absurd and juvenile at best. First of all, being a homosexual is not choice. Second of all, Homophobia is a term used to describe people who have an irrational aversion to homosexuals. Why do they have the aversion? Is their extreme aversion and fear rational? No, thus, the term Homophobia. On the other hand, following the ideology of Islam and everything it stands for is a choice. A gay person being afraid of someone who chooses to follow an ideology that calls for their death is not irrational. Would it have made sense to refer to people against Nazi's as "Naziphobes"? No, because they have a rational reason to be afraid of people who follow the ideology.

 

19 minutes ago, Communion said:

"I'm not Islamophobic, it's common sense to hate savages!" isn't going to endear you to people whose understanding of islamophobia is the dehumanization of Muslims as a group of people - something you come off as doing because personal resentments to Islam drive your rhetoric.

I have not seen one person criticize Islam in the naive way that you quoted. Better yet, I have not seen anyone refer to Muslims as savages when discussing the religion itself. People who criticize the religion have better understanding of it, and present reasonable arguments to explain why they are against it. Furthermore, criticizing Islam and it's teaching doesn't equate to dehumanizing Muslims as a group. A nuanced conversation can be had that separates questioning the religion itself and hating all Muslims. Lastly, I find it fascinating that you are trying to use my experience with Islam against me, when my experience and upbringing gives me a much deeper understanding of the religion and the people who practice it than you will ever be able to have. Not only did I study the religion since I was a child, read its holy book, and practiced it, but I have constant exposure to Muslims and their way of thinking. 

[Leppie]

6 hours ago, VOSS said:

This is a tough question especially when phrased very broadly like this. I of course support people’s right to choose what they wear but you can’t ignore that many women don’t have a choice or that those who do genuinely choose to wear it are wearing a symbol of their inferiority to men in their religion.

My thoughts exactly. 

[Communion]

40 minutes ago, Weld_E said:

 Homophobia is a term used to describe people who have an irrational aversion to homosexuals.

You're being obtuse. Countless homophobes would argue homophobia has nothing to do with gay people but with the act of homosexuality itself and what they claim are the "harms" from the 'belief' that same-sex attraction is real.

 

They similarly would claim that choosing to be gay is a choice not different to choosing a faith.

 

This literally mirrors the rhetoric you're trying to argue about what you think Islamophobia should mean.

 

40 minutes ago, Weld_E said:

I have not seen one person criticize Islam in the naive way that you quoted. 

 

40 minutes ago, Weld_E said:

Better yet, I have not seen anyone refer to Muslims as savages when discussing the religion itself.

This is the issue you're running into. The vast majority of these conversations - the vast majority of conversations about Muslims - are not about the religious pillars of Islam as a faith. This is the problem you and @Delirious run into by constantly resorting to pedantry and going "well *I'M* trying to talk about the RELIGION" while refusing to realize the theological concepts of the faith have very little impact on how people discuss Muslims' place in society.

 

It's comes off disingenious that you can see real world examples of violence against Muslims because *of racialized hatred of them as a people* yet demand the conversation center instead theological debate.

 

Of course someone who lives in a Muslim-majority country won't run into Muslims being racialized and those who live in a fairly conservative country would debate the issues in the text with those who believe in them. This is all legit and great! But it's disingenuous to pretend like 95% of the examples *on this forum* aren't threads like: "France to ban hijab-wearing women from going on beaches" and members of largely racist countries going "good! if they wanna act like that, send those invaders back to where they belong! we don't want them! ". 

 

40 minutes ago, Weld_E said:

A nuanced conversation can be had that separates questioning the religion itself and hating all Muslims. 

You literally are the one refusing to recognize the nuanced reality of how Muslims are discussed and what "Islamophobia" actually means to the point that you tried to argue your perception of the word's etymology is more important than recognizing the commonality of the word to denote racialized bigotry and violence.

 

What people say: "It's Islamophobia to marginalize Muslim women for wanting to wear the hijab."

What they mean: "The idea that Muslims are inherently conservative as a people cause some wear modesty garments is rooted in racism, xenophobia, and bigotry."

What you think they're saying: "I support the religious texts in the Quran about what women should wear and demand that all women of the world MUST be forced to follow these texts through mass state violence."

 

As an atheist I have sympathy for all people who suffer under religion and extremist interpretations of it, but there's also nothing productive about being intellectually dishonest, sis. 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Communion

[Delirious]

9 hours ago, SmittenCake said:

Usually when people make such outlandish claims like this, they provide concrete evidence to backup their statements. In this case you are unable to due to the fact that this sentiment is a lie and an attack on my character and because of this I will be reporting you to ATRL authorities. I've never shown hatred or disdain for Chinese people or people of different races/ethnicities/backgrounds. To say such an abhorrent thing about me to crutch yourself does you no favors. I've only shared my concerns for the authoritarian Chinese government that is oppressing Muslims and running concentration camps and engaging in geocide while people here gleefully share their love for the rouge regime. People have called you out on your racism and Islamaphobia, you are mad, and this is how you choose to retaliate. 

Girl you literally made a post a few months ago targeting an individual Chinese person for their poor behaviour. You arent as innocent as you claim to be.

 

The original title of this thread. Your purposely put Chinese man in the title to slam Chinese people as a whole for this individual. Why else would you do it?

 

I already called you out on it and you never replied. I mean just look at the things you post. 50% of it is about China. You clearly feel some type of way against Chinese people so your whole essay aint gonna work honey.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Delirious

[Delirious]

7 hours ago, Weld_E said:

First of all the concept of ‘Islamaphobia’ is ridiculous and conceived to shield the religion from any valid criticism. Islam is an ideology stringed together by certain beliefs. Being against such beliefs, like homosexuals being thrown off rooftops, does not mean you have an “irrational fear” of the religion. 
 

Second of all, what the user said  

is not ‘islamaphobic’. He formed an opinion based on what many Muslims express. Instead of wasting your energy calling out people who rightfully criticize the religion, you should start evaluating why such hateful and dangerous beliefs are prevalent with many Muslims today.

Period. Thank you. And plus I said myself that I crossed the line with that one but I was just filled with so much anger that i wrote that but I shouldnt have. The other user also called me a racist and said i wanted to ban hijabs but ofc theres no receipts.

 

Anyone can be a muslim. Doesnt matter what race you are. I dont like any religion and thats it. Call me an islamaphobe all you want but youre also gonna have to call me a christinaphobe or what not.

 

Its just so funny how 90% only countries with death penalties for gay sex (im not sure if Russia allows it) are muslim majority countries so what i said wasnt false at all.

[Delirious]

42 minutes ago, Communion said:

You're being obtuse. Countless homophobes would argue homophobia has nothing to do with gay people but with the act of homosexuality itself and what they claim are the "harms" from the 'belief' that same-sex attraction is real.

 

They similarly would claim that choosing to be gay is a choice not different to choosing a faith.

 

This literally mirrors the rhetoric you're trying to argue about what you think Islamophobia should mean.

 

 

This is the issue you're running into. The vast majority of these conversations - the vast majority of conversations about Muslims - are not about the religious pillars of Islam as a faith. This is the problem you and @Delirious run into by constantly resorting to pedantry and going "well *I'M* trying to talk about the RELIGION" while refusing to realize the theological concepts of the faith have very little impact on how people discuss Muslims' place in society.

 

It's comes off disingenious that you can see real world examples of violence against Muslims because *of racialized hatred of them as a people* yet demand the conversation center instead theological debate.

 

Of course someone who lives in a Muslim-majority country won't run into Muslims being racialized and those who live in a fairly conservative country would debate the issues in the text with those who believe in them. This is all legit and great! But it's disingenuous to pretend like 95% of the examples *on this forum* aren't threads like: "France to ban hijab-wearing women from going on beaches" and members of largely racist countries going "good! if they wanna act like that, send those invaders back to where they belong! we don't want them! ". 

 

You literally are the one refusing to recognize the nuanced reality of how Muslims are discussed and what "Islamophobia" actually means to the point that you tried to argue your perception of the word's etymology is more important than recognizing the commonality of the word to denote racialized bigotry and violence.

 

What people say: "It's Islamophobia to marginalize Muslim women for wanting to wear the hijab."

What they mean: "The idea that Muslims are inherently conservative as a people cause some wear modesty garments is rooted in racism, xenophobia, and bigotry."

What you think they're saying: "I support the religious texts in the Quran about what women should wear and demand that all women of the world MUST be forced to follow these texts through mass state violence."

 

As an atheist I have sympathy for all people who suffer under religion and extremist interpretations of it, but there's also nothing productive about being intellectually dishonest, sis. 

 

Girl. You do know that not all Muslim people are middle-eastern right? A HUGE majority are black and asian. I mean Africa, Indonesia, Malaysia etc. So...

[Communion]

7 minutes ago, Delirious said:

Girl. You do know that not all Muslim people are middle-eastern right? A HUGE majority are black and asian. I mean Africa, Indonesia, Malaysia etc. So...

At this point, I don't think you're emotionally prepared for serious conversations about the treatment of Muslims void of personal resentments to Islam. Like I genuinely have no clue what you're trying to say, what it has to do with most post, or even the topic at hand.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Communion

[Delirious]

36 minutes ago, Communion said:

At this point, I don't think you're emotionally prepared for serious conversations about the treatment of Muslims void of personal resentments to Islam. Like I genuinely have no clue what you're trying to say, what it has to do with most post, or even the topic at hand.

Like the way christians and atheists are treated in Muslim majority countries? Oh wait you get killed if that’s the case. 

 

But anyways obviously some people shout ridiculous things as Muslims like ‘go to hell’ or whatnot and they get harassed in public. I agree with that, but we aren’t doing any of that here. So I don’t know what the treatment of muslims has to do with this particular conversation.

 

I can criticise any religion when I Want and however I want.

 

And I really didn’t want to say this @Communion but you kept replying to me...but aren’t you that user who keeps claiming that China isn’t genociding ughurs right now? 

[Delirious]

It’s like the pot calling the kettle black ?

[Communion]

27 minutes ago, Delirious said:

China isn’t genociding ughurs right now? 

If you're arguing that limiting people's civil liberties re: aspects of how people can practice their religion goes beyond oppression and somehow constitutes genocide... wouldn't that then, in your desire to see Islam wiped off the Earth, make you an active supporter of said genocide you're mentioning? 

 

Sis, you are so out of your depth even when just trying to argue why your reactionary hatred of Islam is okay and sounding like an atheist in their first year of leaving a religion; for your well-being, you genuinely should avoid trying to even meddle in the socio-political with hot takes. 

 

You want me to believe you, who said this:

Quote

"Islam will never be accepting of gays or women. If you are LGBTQ and still support Muslims, think again because this is literally what the majority of Muslims want. Muslims want every country to be ruled under sharia law.”

...have genuine concerns over freedom of expression for China's Muslim population, even when not knowing most Muslims in China are ethnically Hui and not Uyghur? When advocating for worse treatment of Muslims than the illiberal practices you suddenly are concerned with in China? What do you exactly think is the end result when you advocate for people to "not support" and see Muslims as "wanting to rule" over them? 

 

You want me to feel bad for saying that countries in the West like the US and France have no place to criticize regressive policies like those in China that over-correct and wrongfully (!) restrict personal habits because of their own objectively worse policies, while you, and I quote, literally advocate for a conspiracy that Muslims are not to be trusted because "they want every country to be ruled under sharia law"? Insanity. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Communion

[Delirious]

6 minutes ago, Communion said:

If you're arguing that limiting people's civil liberties re: aspects of how people can practice their religion goes beyond oppression and somehow constitutes genocide... wouldn't that then, in your desire to see Islam wiped off the Earth, make you an active supporter of said genocide you're mentioning? 

 

Sis, you are so out of your depth even when just trying to argue why your reactionary hatred of Islam is okay and sounding like an atheist in their first year of leaving a religion; for your well-being, you genuinely should avoid trying to even meddle in the socio-political with hot takes. 

 

You want me to believe you, who said this:

...have genuine concerns over freedom of expression for China's Muslim population, even when not knowing most Muslims in China are ethnically Hui and not Uyghur? When advocating for worse treatment of Muslims than the illiberal practices you suddenly are concerned with in China? What do you exactly think is the end result when you advocate for people to "not support" and see Muslims as "wanting to rule" over them? 

 

You want me to feel bad for saying that countries in the West like the US and France have no place to criticize regressive policies like those in China that over-correct and wrongfully (!) restrict personal habits because of their own objectively worse policies, while you, and I quote, literally advocate for a conspiracy that Muslims are not to be trusted because "they want every country to be ruled under sharia law"? Insanity. 

Im not even gonna read this because im pretty sure youre that user who goes to deep depths to constantly defend chinas actions torwards ughurs and say that it doesnt exist. So anyways ?

[Communion]

4 minutes ago, Delirious said:

Im not even gonna read this 

 

Whatever you say, Xi Jinping! 

[Bacardo Royale]

As long as it's not forced

[Rith]

10 hours ago, SmittenCake said:

and some people think being nude is "freendom" or "empowering"

 

womp womp womp. everyone has their own choices and versions of whats freedom. 

uhmm, women have been forced to cover most of their body for a milennia, of course being nude is empowering, we are finally getting over those dark ages.

this "being able to wear my middle-ages headwear is freedom" bullshit is just a counterculture all rooting from islamic minorities living in western world naturally being confronted with western culture.

as a person who lived in a middle eastern country for 20 years, my advice is to not look at dumb individuals defending whatever they believe in but instead look at the bigger picture of ideologies at clash