news Russian men escaping Putin's call to arms

[greeneyedsoul]

Why is Georgia letting them in anyway? Like go to Azerbaijan... 

[greeneyedsoul]

11 minutes ago, ZIVERT said:

But Russians are wholeheartedly anti-war. How is this possible? 

 

[anti-bitch]

19 minutes ago, greeneyedsoul said:

But Russians are wholeheartedly anti-war. How is this possible? 

 

This guy shows what's really happening in Russia. He said there's less protesters than in February but a lot more people leaving the country now.

 

 

[Flanders]

I

6 hours ago, greeneyedsoul said:

Why do some of y'all feel sorry for them? They were pro-war until it was their time to go to war. 

They're not against war and they're not against killing Ukrainians - they're against themselves getting killed. 

 

You're writing as if you’ve done a scientific study on these people your assumptions are based on anecdotal evidence. It’s definitely possible to sympathize with the ones who are against Putin and for whom this was the last straw, or who are leaving to take a stand against a senseless war. As for the ones who are just cowards and support the war, I think they’re trash just the same as you.
 

I don’t see why this is so hard for some people in here to understand  There’s definitely a chance that a majority of them are what you say, but we don’t know that yet. That’s all I’m saying

[greeneyedsoul]

17 minutes ago, Flanders said:

I

You're writing as if you’ve done a scientific study on these people your assumptions are based on anecdotal evidence. It’s definitely possible to sympathize with the ones who are against Putin and for whom this was the last straw, or who are leaving to take a stand against a senseless war. As for the ones who are just cowards and support the war, I think they’re trash just the same as you.
 

I don’t see why this is so hard for some people in here to understand  There’s definitely a chance that a majority of them are what you say, but we don’t know that yet. That’s all I’m saying

Okay, let's wait for Russia to invade a few more countries and kill more people and maybe then at some point in the future Russia's citizen will say something. Until then, let's assume they're all anti-war.

 

[Flanders]

44 minutes ago, greeneyedsoul said:

Okay, let's wait for Russia to invade a few more countries and kill more people and maybe then at some point in the future Russia's citizen will say something. Until then, let's assume they're all anti-war.

 

It seems like you didn’t take the time to read my post, because I never said that we should assume that they’re all anti war. My point was that we probably shouldn’t jump to conclusions that they ALL think either one thing or another. I feel like you are being very combative here and I don’t see how it’s productive to the discussion  

[Rev8]

2 hours ago, ZIVERT said:

Serves them RIGHT!

The HYPOCRISY of em leaving while SUPPORTING the killing and invasion of Ukraine!
**** em!

 

 

The comment sections under the news (in my country) about this happening, is laughing so hard at these fools

and ofc there are the same russophiles that reply with "WhY DoNT u fIgHT fOr uKraINe?!" like..is that your comeback?

[KillingYourCareer]

2 hours ago, greeneyedsoul said:

Why is Georgia letting them in anyway? Like go to Azerbaijan... 

They know what it's like living under a dictatorship, they don't want to go to an even worse one. Also Azerbaijan is all smoke and mirrors, it's a miserable place

[ZIVERT]

13 minutes ago, Flanders said:

It seems like you didn’t take the time to read my post, because I never said that we should assume that they’re all anti war. My point was that we probably shouldn’t jump to conclusions that they ALL think either one thing or another. I feel like you are being very combative here and I don’t see how it’s productive to the discussion  

They don’t think about anything at all until it affects them personally, what’s not clicking???? That’s literally the problem?  

[Flanders]

2 minutes ago, ZIVERT said:

They don’t think about anything at all until it affects them personally, what’s not clicking???? That’s literally the problem? 

While that may be true, that is human nature. The same could easily be said about issues like climate change, human trafficking, racism, famine, and the list goes on. A lot of people don’t care about stuff until it affects them. I’m sorry but this outrage of yours is just not rational — at this time. We should be happy that we’re starting to see cracks in Putins iron grip on Russia. With that said, I definitely don’t believe countries should just open the gates for Russians who want to flee in case that’s the impression you’re left with here.

 

All I’m asking is that we look at this with a rational mind and a fact based discourse. We might just have to agree to disagree. No need to get all worked up on my behalf

[ZIVERT]

2 minutes ago, Flanders said:

While that may be true, that is human nature. The same could easily be said about issues like climate change, human trafficking, racism, famine, and the list goes on. A lot of people don’t care about stuff until it affects them. I’m sorry but this outrage of yours is just not rational — at this time. We should be happy that we’re starting to see cracks in Putins iron grip on Russia. With that said, I definitely don’t believe countries should just open the gates for Russians who want to flee in case that’s the impression you’re left with here.

 

All I’m asking is that we look at this with a rational mind and a fact based discourse. We might just have to agree to disagree. No need to get all worked up on my behalf

It’s great that there are cracks in Putin’s regime, but the actual problem is that the strongman, entitled, imperialist mindset of the average Russian hasn’t changed. With this kumbaya mentality of praising Russians for running away from the problem they play a part in perpetuating within their society, instead of actually addressing it, nothing will be solved. People in the former USSR have been screaming at the top of their lungs about Russian chauvinism for decades now, Ukraine is literally being invaded and facing extinction as a nation, but it’s somehow irrational for ME to be against the #NotAllRussians campaign from people online who have never been to Russia or have had to deal with the «Русский мир» before in their lives?  

[LeMésTragique]

16 hours ago, ZIVERT said:

And Westeners wonder why Eastern Europeans are wary of Russians

[Cloudy]

19 hours ago, ZIVERT said:

Such anti-war sentiment

 

[Communion]

The  amount of ethno-centrism, nationalism and ethnic resentment in this thread. 

 

Hopefully Russia is forced out of Ukraine but it's clear that Russia's objectively unlawful invasion will be used as a pretext to enable and defend unrelated reactionary attitudes that have already been growing in Europe for years. For all the talk of a united Europe, it's clear the continent including Russia is entering a new wave of ethno-nationalist sentiment.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Communion

[Cloudy]

21 minutes ago, Communion said:

The  amount of ethno-centrism, nationalism and ethnic resentment in this thread. 

 

Hopefully Russia is forced out of Ukraine but it's clear that Russia's objectively unlawful invasion will be used as a pretext to enable and defend unrelated reactionary attitudes that have already been growing in Europe for years. For all the talk of a united Europe, it's clear the continent including Russia is entering a new wave of ethno-nationalist sentiment.

As you say in all the other threads to other members, we're European and you're not so why are you telling europeans how to feel about Russians? You are not the one who has them as neighbours. Most of Europe is tired of them, tired of the constant threats, tired of the constant attempts of destabilization in national politics and supporting and funding far right movements, tired of the constant hostility while they love to enjoy their riches and the "european" way of life.

 

I think Europe has been kind enough giving them a chances time and time again, doing business with them, opening our borders to them, trying to establish friendly relations as supposed "fellow europeans" and we've always been received with a slap in the face, so excuse us for not wanting to greet them with open arms...

Edited September 25, 2022 by Cloudy

[ZIVERT]

Russophobia is not a real thing. As usual, Russians want to frame the rest of the world and victimize themselves for their own behavior. Now "the world is against Russia," the Baltic countries and Finland are "responsible" for Russians dying in Ukraine since they won't allow Russian men to escape there. The cognitive dissonance to play into this imperialist temper tantrum against the backdrop of civilian centers in Ukrainian cities being bombed and illegal referendums taking place at gunpoint is not lost on me. Hopefully those in Russia who are truly against the war and want to live in peace will surrender if they are mobilized into Ukraine, where they will be treated like human beings. Bootlickers of the Soviet Union trying to guilt trip and gaslight in this thread will not get an ounce of remorse out of me

 

[Communion]

5 minutes ago, Cloudy said:

As you say in all the other threads to other members, we're European and you're not so why are you telling europeans how to feel about Russians?

It's so wild to see those who claim to be experts on identifying authoritarianism defend hoping sects of people die. 

 

For all the claims of being an extremist, I'm glad I've never been radicalized so far into thinking some people deserve to die, let alone people actively refusing to participate in state violence.

 

Truly nothing soils the preciousness of life than the politics of revenge.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Communion

[Cloudy]

1 minute ago, Communion said:

It's so wild to see those who claim to be experts on identifying authoritarianism defend hoping sects of people die. 

 

For all the claims of being an extremist, I'm glad I've never been radicalized so far into thinking some people deserve to die.

There you go again making **** up and putting words in people's mouths. I shouldn't even have to defend myself, but since that's what you're fishing for. I never said or implied anywhere in my post that they deserve or want them to die, why would I do that if anything I want this to end because everyone in the world is being affected by it one way or another. As always you literally took that out of your ******* as you tend to do in many threads. There you happy?

 

Why should Europeans, specially those from neighbouring nations previously under Soviet rules greet them with open arms? Europeans already opened their houses and borders to feeing Ukrainians escaping a brutal invasion. They are not at risk because a foreign power wants them to cease to exists as nation, they are at risk because their country and leaders are the aggressors, if they aren't happy with the situation maybe they should take it up with the big bad boss up there in his huge ass mansion  

 

This is not a syrian refugees situation as you're shamelessly trying to make it be and failing at that, these people aren't escaping because their country is in chaos and fleeing a war happening inside their country. Their country is the one being hostile towards others and many of them are fleeing proudly wearing those fascists Zs. It seems to me you are more outraged about these "poor russian men" than those hundreds of ukrainians tortured, murdered and the buried in the cities of Ukraine.

 

There is bound to be people caught up in all of this that don't want any of it, but what do you want Europe to do? Please enlighten us

[Communion]

27 minutes ago, Cloudy said:

I never said or implied anywhere in my post that they deserve or want them to die

>> The Russian state is indefensible because its war leads to death (correct!)

>> No, denying ethnic Russians asylum and demanding they be drafted in Putin's war is not sentencing them to death

 

?

 

You write yourself into circles yet still can't address the criticism - only that such feelings of ethnic resentment are justified and it's rational to essentialize ethnic Russians and participate in ethno-nationalism as a form of revenge.

 

You can't even articulate any material negative impact that letting in ethnic Russians fleeing would have. You have to peddle generalizations ("look at this whatsapp screenshot!") and wax poetic with historical inaccuracies comparing Russia to Iran that even Iranian nationals would criticize you for being misinformed about.

 

You double-down that ethnic resentment to ethnic Russians is justified because they as a people are inherently pre-dispositioned to hate Europe's way of life - yet you're saying this about people explicitly saying the opposite?

 

In no time in history has your ideas and attitude of ethnic resentment ever worked out positively.

The answer would be to make the Russian state pay reparation, not innocent civilians pay retribution.

 

And as a last ditch effort, you try to offensively weaponize innocent Ukrainian suffering, only to fall on your face not realizing you're literally inadvertently promoting the continuation of this baseless war by justifying the idea that people who flee because they do not want to fight in it be rejected and sent back to fight "to get a taste of their own medicine". 

 

Of course the Russian state is disgustingly nationalist. Why you then wish to mimic their actions and attitudes by essentalizing people on the basis of ethnicity leaves most confused.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Communion

[Specter]

I feel like it's not hard to have a modicum of sympathy for these men whilst also emphasizing that the nature of this situation makes it impossible to a) meaningfully act on this sentiment and b) implement any response (as a neighbouring nation) that won't ultimately read as bizarre and dismissive to the plight of Ukrainian citizens.

 

When a country goes at war with another (or in this case illegally invades), it goes without saying that not every single citizen is in favour of the violence and bloodshed that will ensue; and the opposite is also true. No group is ever a monolith, much less citizens of an ethnically diverse nation.

 

I guess the amount of sympathy you have (and I personally do not have very much - which is not to say that I wish these men harm, more power to them for fleeing state backed-violence at the hands of a dictator who would literally send his own citizens to a meat grinder ) will ultimately depend on how you view "inaction" of citizens as either enabling (or worse, being complicit) the violence, or if it's an entirely separate entity from the mess. 

 

If it's the former, then yeah - seeing this just might scratch a (valid, imo) emotional itch. From that perspective, it's not really seeing men fleeing; it's seeing all the Telegram groups anonymously cheering on the bombing of the Mariupol theatre and the mass-murder of civilians scram for their lives. If it's the latter, then you see citizens that have "nothing" to do with the war or Putin's actions bear the consequences, especially as Russia finds itself on the precipice of militaristic destruction.

 

I think it is a very nuanced topic, especially since there is a lot of polling and research that /does/ corroborate the fact that people in authoritarian, far-right nations such as Russia have a lot of polling-hesitancy to be openly critical of the government. What ends up as a result is often a tilted frame, wherein it's almost a performance of patriotism in the sociological sense as the pro-authoritarian hardliners are the ones given the most space to express their opinions.

 

Ultimately, I wish these men well and I hope they can escape conscription, but I refuse to give them more real estate in my head than the Ukrainian citizens who have seen their country destroyed. I realize it doesn't have to be an either/or; but I think I'm fine with placing my larger feelings about conscriptions on the backburner to center the victims of the war first and foremost. Putin is harming/has irreparably harmed BOTH Ukraine and Russia, true; but to pretend that one is like the other does not track for me, sorry.

[Cloudy]

3 minutes ago, Communion said:

>> The Russian state is indefensible because its war leads to death (correct!)

>> No, denying ethnic Russians asylum and demanding they be drafted in Putin's war is not sentencing them to death

 

?

 

You write yourself into circles yet still can't address the criticism - only that such feelings of ethnic resentment are justified and it's rational to essentialize ethnic Russians and participate in ethno-nationalism as a form of revenge.

 

You can't even articulate any material negative impact that letting in ethnic Russians fleeing would have. You have to peddle generalizations ("look at this whatsapp screenshot!") and wax poetic with historical inaccuracies comparing Russia to Iran that even Iranian nationals would criticize you for being misinformed about.

 

You double-down that ethnic resentment to ethnic Russians is justified because they as a people are inherently pre-dispositioned to hate Europe's way of life - yet you're saying this about people explicitly saying the opposite?

 

In no time in history as your ideas and attitude of ethnic resentment ever worked out positively.

The answer would be to make the Russian state pay reparation, not innocent civilians pay retribution.

 

And as a last ditch effort, you try to offensively weaponize innocent Ukrainian suffering, only to fall on your face not realizing you're literally inadvertently promoting the continuation of this baseless war by justifying the idea that people who flee because they do not want to fight it be rejected and sent back to fight "to get a taste of their own medicine". 

 

Of course the Russian state is disgustingly nationalist. Why you then wish to mimic their actions and attitudes by essentalizing people on the basis of ethnicity leaves most confused.

No one is weaponizing anything because Ukranians are going to be killed and are being killed whether Europe takes these men or not, that is not up them nor to Europe and it's honestly bizarre how you are always trying to put the burden of the conflict on the ones being aggravated or attacked. The only way people of Ukraine would stop being murdered is for these russian men to give up and refuse to fight as Zelensky said, they won't even be sent back to Russia.

 

The one who is sending them and sentencing to death is Putin not us, it's beyond me why you are always trying to gaslight and guilt trip us into feeling bad for decisions that have not been made by us. Do you really think any of us want people to die? Do you really think I want thousands of russians to get killed in the name of "revenge"? What we all want is them to leave Ukraine and Europe alone and stop trying to antagonize us every damn minute for no reason.

 

You constantly try to put the blame of all of this on Europe, just as you were trying to do it with Ukraine when the invasion started "let Russia take the territory and conceed to their demands", "that's what happens when you listen to the west". "Let all these fleeing russians escape and take them in, if not you're directly responsible of their murder and ukrainians". Say Europe once again bends it's knee and does that, the war isn't magically going to end and Putin gets more and more humilliated and the aggression continues (and escalates) then what do you want Europe to do next? The fact that you actually typed and posted as an answer "Make the Russian state pay reparations" is beyond ridiculous because you know that's not ever going to happen, as if we even know when Putin will finally conceed and take the L...

 

No one is mimicking Russian actions and the fact that you even say that is disgusting, my country is not attacking neibouring nations or territories. The constant whitewashing of these usual regimes you always try to do is disgusting and you should be ashamed honestly. At the end of the day nothing you suggest or I suggest is going to fix this because it's not up to us, is up to Putin and russians. Europe can't do anything about what goes on inside Russia so stop trying to blame it for Putin's regime

[infrared]

Putin is on his last brain cell and his back is against the wall. He knows the other countries are helping Ukraine but he’d foolish to think U.S, U.K, France won’t destroy him the moment he tries something directly against them. 
 

He knows if he ends the war, he’s going to jail so he better commit suicide or plan his escape soon 

[Communion]

40 minutes ago, Cloudy said:

No one is weaponizing anything because Ukranians

You quite literally are and continue to do so to justify your irrational resentments based in ethnicity.

 

I mean, literally just a few sentences down, you literally do it again:

40 minutes ago, Cloudy said:

always trying to put the burden of the conflict on the ones being aggravated

Are you genuinely trying to trick people into thinking anyone is actually suggesting Ukraine offer asylum to Russians?  How are... *checks notes* Lithuania being attacked? How are they distressed right now? How are bordering nations eagerly assisting Russia in "catching draft dodgers" via sending young men back aggrieved? How does doing Russia's dirty work for them not help them?

 

Even if you argued that simply bordering Russia was stressful and made one a victim to aggression.. how would such then apply to Western European countries - many of whom you and others are *lobbying* to not accept any Russian fleeing - and qualify them as under attack?

 

If the argument is that it's not fair to ask those bordering Russia to be burdened with an influx of those fleeing, why then are there also demands that countries miles away with far more resources follow and reject fleeing Russians? If the issue is logistical restraints, why is it also "letting Russia win" to let anti-war Russians flee to Germany? France? You'll post clips of pro-Putin demonstrations in these countries of 20 people standing in a square to go "see? they're all no good!!".

 

It's a rhetorical trick and you know this. Suddenly "Ukraine" and "Europe" are synonyms. Again, no one believes this "united European front" when you can't even keep yourself from peddling ethno-centrism.

 

This is now another post you've made and still have not provided any argument about the alleged material harm accepting fleeing Russians seeking asylum would inflict on host countries:

1 hour ago, Communion said:

You can't even articulate any material negative impact that letting in ethnic Russians fleeing would have.

Again, the idea that ethnic Russians are somehow uniquely irredeemable as a people and thus are required to meet a level of repentance that can only be achieved through becoming prisoners of war, and that fleeing from forced enlistment of such an immoral war is not good enough, does not work alongside the history of European violence and indifference by Europeans to the violence they commit outside of their borders.

 

"You can ONLY show you reject your country's violence by overthrowing your government" is not historically reflective of the millions and millions of innocents killed in the Global South by European nations in just the last 30 years. At least be consistent with your moral stances.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Communion

[Cloudy]

6 minutes ago, Communion said:

You quite literally are and continue to do so to justify your irrational resentments based in ethnicity.

 

I mean, literally just a few sentences down, you literally do it again:

How is... *checks notes* Lithuania being attacked? How are they distressed right now? Even if you argued that simply bordering Russia was stressful and distressing... how would such then apply to the many Western European countries you and others are *lobbying* to not accept any Russian fleeing from under attack?

 

If the argument is that it's not fair to ask those bordering Russia to be burdened with an influx of those fleeing, why then are these calls also with demands that country miles away with far more resources also do the same? If the issue is logistical restraints, why is it also "letting Russia win" to let anti-war Russians flee to Germany? France?

 

It's a rhetorical trick and you know this. Suddenly "Ukraine" and "Europe" are synonyms. Again, no one believes this "united European front" when you can't even keep yourself from peddling ethno-centrism.

 

This is now another post you've made and still have not provided any argument about the alleged material harm accepting fleeing Russians seeking asylum would then inflict on the host countries:

Again, the idea that ethnic Russians are somehow uniquely irredeemable as a people and thus are required to meet a level of repentance that can only be achieved through becoming prisoners of war, and that fleeing from forced enlistment of such an immoral war is not good enough, does not work alongside the decades of history of European violence and indifference by Europeans to the violence they commit outside of their borders.

 

"You can ONLY show you reject your country's violence by overthrowing your government" is NOT historically reflective of the millions and millions of innocents killed in the Global South by European nations in just the last 30 years.

All these paragraphs you wrote could be basically summarized to "you have to deal Russia and it's consequences no matter how". You advocate for Ukraine to conceed to Russia's demands, you want Europe to not support them financially and military, you want the world to not economically sanction Russia, you want Europe to let it's fleeing nationals come to the EU. Is the whole point of your discourse to appease Russia? Is that what you really want and think? You're always talking about accountability and the responsability the "west" has for their crimes, where's the accountability for Russia's?

 

Sure taking a couple hundreds of russian men won't do "any harm", but will it stop the war? No, the war continues, Russia continues to take loses what happens next? Russia escalates, its economy continues to plummet and russians get hungry, is Europe also responsible because they adopted sanctions? Are we suppose to once again be the "better person" and engage with them again in economic activities even when Putin is still in power and Ukraine remains destroyed without reparations? How do you solve all of this? Serious question

[Communion]

2 minutes ago, Cloudy said:

All these paragraphs you wrote could be basically summarized to "you have to deal Russia and it's consequences no matter how".

By nature of being human, yes, you have to deal with the innate value of human life, no matter If it's a different ethnicity.

 

8 minutes ago, Cloudy said:

 talking about accountability and the responsability the "west" has for their crimes, where's the accountability for Russia's?

Again, you've refusing to address that Europe is not a monolith. How would letting anti-war Russians flee to Western or Central Europe negatively impact the countries bordering Russia? How would it strain their reasonably sparse resources? Again, you're not speaking objectively or logically. 

 

Quote

Sure taking a couple hundreds of russian men won't do "any harm", but will it stop the war?

"No, it doesn't help keep the war going but umm it won't stop it??" - the idea that Russians are uniquely responsible for ending the actions of the Russian state is at odds, again, with the way every other European nation, historically, views the relationship between its citizenry and the state.

 

What benefit does it to do to convince Russians that the risk of dying is worth standing up against the crimes of its government while maligning (largely poor) Russians themselves as innately at odds with ever being truly part of the European way of life? "Any GOOD person would selflessly ignore the consequences of state violence" is *not* the standard of morality you want to introduce to this conversation, I assure you.

 

You're essentially trying to convince others that this is all justified by going "yeah, well, we are ******* tired, and that justifies us to want them to hurt like we have" (ignoring that framing all of "Europe" as unilaterally somehow historical victims to Russia when most Western Europeans have had the same level of contempt for Eastern Europeans that they now claim is innate to the Russian worldview is um...).

 

15 minutes ago, Cloudy said:

Are we suppose to once again be the "better person"

You're literally admitting that you don't think there will be ramifications for the Russian state and so you'll instead accept getting to witness suffering of Russian citizens in some imaginary test to prove themselves as an equivalent comeuppance, even for ones who actively reject Putin's worldview yet have no power to do anything.

 

There's no end to this argument because we're not actually in disagreement - I think the idea that rejecting those fleeing from forced enlistment in war on the basis that they as a people are not compatible with Europe is ethnonationalist and you're essentially going "well yeah it is cause at this point Russia has it coming!".