discussion Hunter Schafer (Euphoria) gets lashed for liking IG post dragging nonbinary people

[Uncatena]

12 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said:

So what makes a NB person who doesn’t medically transition and presents as their birth sex different from a cis person?

none of your business?

[princedonte]

I’m royally confused about all of this stuff. None of it makes sense, even after reading about it for 8 plus years online here and there. It changes every 5 minutes. 

[fountain]

18 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said:

So what makes a NB person who doesn’t medically transition and presents as their birth sex different from a cis person?

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=gender+identity+

[Carla Rosón]

The conservatives are going to do evil regardless of what the porgressives do or say.

 

But the post does raise several valid points concerning the NB business.

[GraceRandolph]

2 minutes ago, InventedGays said:

I mean I would imagine for some it's both how they see themselves as well as effects their view and perspective on the world & how they engage with it. None of which is any concern of yours nor does it have any effect on you or your life.  Also this doesnt have anything else to do with what you quoted, but again you trying to dictate who can and can't identify as what does not and will not ever make you more desirable to conservatives. Their hate is painted with a broad brush stroke, no matter who you try to push out of the community you are nothing to them

People can identify as what they want, but until you transition your experience of the world won’t materially change. 

[Cameltoe Chariot]

The way everyone is willfully misinterpreting what Piggytaiwan said  reading comprehension is optional these days I guess

[BlueTimberwolf]

3 hours ago, InventedGays said:

It really doesn't, and it does make sense and claiming peoples identities don't make sense is problematic. You also literally don't have to understand anything about someone's identities in order to be respectful, really as simple as that 

Respect has nothing to do with it, and it's weird that you took it there. Either the sky is blue or it's not, and words have definitions.   If no one can explain the difference between cisgender and non-binary, then the default position is that there isn't any.  

[BlueTimberwolf]

3 hours ago, InventedGays said:

Words have definition and both of the ones youre pretending to not know have them you can very easily look up rather than peddling that nonsense. Also no not everything is black & white and is either a yes or a no. Acting like the entire world operates that way makes you sound like you are 6 years old.

Respect does have a lot to do with it, someone identifying as something literally does NOTHING to you. Asking to be called a different name or pronoun has no negative effect on you or anyone else. Running in here saying nothing about it makes sense and it's impossible to understand is disrespectful when it really is not hard to get if someone has taken even the slightest bit of time to look into openly.

It does in fact have something do with me if  that person is claiming to be a part of my community, and speaking on my behalf.  Then, it's actually necessary make distinctions. I agree with that you conservatives are going to do what they always do, but that's a different conversation than what actually constitutes transsexuality. 

[Cameltoe Chariot]

1 minute ago, InventedGays said:

No they are being very clear. They're blaming NB people for the mindset conservative people are using to strip trans people of their rights. They are going to do that regardless though and this post and those agreeing with it acting like passing in a binary is going to suddenly make republicans hate them less

Nice try flipping the script, but the post everyone keeps sharing is only one part of a much larger conversation Jordan (Piggytaiwan) has been having on her instagram over the past year. She and many other self-identified binary trans women have repeatedly pointed out how their demographic has been entirely pushed out of the public conversation, and how that lack of representation has opened the debate floodgates on what is and isn't necessary for trans people on legal terms.

 

She has repeatedly stated she is not a "transmedicalist", that she supports non-binary people, and that she doesn't believe there is any right or wrong way to transition or be trans - her only point this entire time is that TRANS WOMEN AND MEN WHO REQUIRE MEDICAL INTERVENTION/GENDER AFFIRMING SURGERIES NEED TO BE AT THE FRONT OF THE LINE. This care is life or death for these people, but they are systematically being removed from the conversation around LGBTQ+ rights and being spoken over by Demi Lovato and Alok who are busy telling everyone that medical transition isn't necessary.

 

It's all shut up and listen when it's BLM or any other social justice/human rights movement - but when a white trans woman dares to speak up about how she's being silenced in the conversation around her rights, everyone wants to tell her how to think and feel, are accuses her of being a trans traitor. It's gross, and no better than how TERFs behave.

[AuntieKunt]

It's always interesting to watch the modern day pronoun gang/LGBTQIA2s++++ infighting.
The entire bases of this gender stuff is all arbitrary and it's not possible to for it to ever truly make sense or be congruent so this is inevitable.

I accept my warning point and repent for daring to have a critical and nuanced thought about the church of LGBTQIA+++.


 

[meangreen11]

1 hour ago, ChapelHooker said:

Y’all yell this all day but there is literally zero evidence for any significant amount of people “pretending” (lmao) to be trans. this is ludicrous. This is such a chronically online take, Twitter isn’t reality. 
 

Also the bolded part… you’re ******* joking right? Like… what? A) Harry Styles isn’t non-binary/trans and has never claimed to be and wearing “feminine clothing” doesn’t make him, and thinking that is extremely weird and B) on WHAT planet are trans people getting an “outpour of support”?

Absolutely nowhere did I say anyone is pretending to be trans. Unless you’re equating trans to NB (which it isn’t) and I maintain that there are absolutely people identifying as NB solely for clout and to seem edgy to gen Z. No one is overturning their entire gender identity and alienating themselves just to seem special, which is why people aren’t faking being trans. But when queerness involves literally no change other than saying “I use they/them pronouns now,” it is ripe to being exploited by trenders and influencers. They can always drop the pronouns and walk away whenever they want. 
 

And I also am not saying Harry Styles is non-binary. He’s not even queer. But see how easily he was able to gain attention and dominate headlines just by taking some photos in traditionally feminine clothing? He took photos in a dress and the world lost its mind. That’s the reason it’s appealing to people who just want to cling to a label to be seen as unique for a little while. It’s cheap admission to feel like part of the counter culture and no lingering side effects. 

[Cameltoe Chariot]

Just now, AuntieKunt said:

I accept my warning point and repent for daring to have a critical and nuanced thought about the church of LGBTQIA+++.


 

Waiting for mine for daring to defend a trans woman's right to her own opinions regarding trans rights and medical care access 

[DoubleRainbow!]

I knew she would get cancelled one day but not this soon 

[AuntieKunt]

2 hours ago, Beyonnaise said:

the reason transphobia is the flavor of the month right now is for a few reasons: the GOP hand-picking it as the new culture war after they lost power in 2020, British TERFs like JK Rowling spreading their ideas to the general public

Really interesting that you solely blame JK Rowling for sharing her non violent opinions and not the numerous trans people who have left her literal death threats and tried to send pipe bombs to her house.
These comments are not good optics for the trans community and instead of calling them out you take the easy route of blaming the evil nazi bigot TERF JK.





Tons more where this came from but I don't want to clog up the thread.

[Uncatena]

8 minutes ago, meangreen11 said:

Absolutely nowhere did I say anyone is pretending to be trans. Unless you’re equating trans to NB (which it isn’t)

 

Stopped reading here! Have a nice day though x 

[Peroxide]

2 hours ago, Beyonnaise said:

I feel like this is a complex conversation that descends into mudslinging of labels like "transmedicalist" on Twitter (because it's easier to drag individual people than unpack complicated ideas) rather than addressing the topic at hand. I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

 

The idea that transphobic policies are the result of nonbinary people muddying the waters and confusing people is... far-fetched. That would have to be predicated on binary trans people already having a high level of acceptance, which they never have. Most people older than Millennials do not understand the difference between binary/non-binary trans identities. People have always been transphobic, but the reason transphobia is the flavor of the month right now is for a few reasons: the GOP hand-picking it as the new culture war after they lost power in 2020, British TERFs like JK Rowling spreading their ideas to the general public, and just greater general awareness of trans people (ironically from media representation like Hunter on Euphoria) creating a conservative backlash.

 

Now on the other hand, I think binary trans people are entitled to feel like their identities are uniquely disadvantaged, as a lot of non-binary people will never pursue hormone intervention and many pass as their gender assigned at birth. Obviously it's more nuanced than this, because there are NB people who do pursue medical intervention. NB people also do face a lion's share of the misgendering that happens simply because "they/them" usage is less common in everyday lexicon of most people. But it's undoubtedly true that an AMAB person identifying and presenting as woman is more oppressed in everyday society than a nonbinary person who might have some fashion-based queer-coded signifiers, but still passes as their birth gender. Binary trans people should be able to center their medical needs in the fight for trans rights because that's what's on the chopping block right now. I can understand the frustration of binary trans people like Hunter but NB people also aren't "the enemy" though, and transphobic policies hurt everyone involved.

 

Generally, I think if we really want to have a liberated world for gender expression, we should be able to acknowledge the different privileges and disadvantages different groups face and not scapegoat specific people as evil. Twitter is obviously the worst place possible to make any progress on this though.

Nice take.

[Cameltoe Chariot]

1 minute ago, InventedGays said:

The post LITERALLY says NB people are the reason conservatives are choosing to take away rights from trans people.  A lot of what you have here I'd agree with and think there is a much larger conversation around that, but that is the truth for those people.  It's not NB people's faults that the media and the people who control the media are focusing there.  Unless I'm mistaken I've also never seen any of those people speak in a way that they are representing a community but always specifically talking about their own lived experience and reference to it as such. She might have stated that through the year or whatever but the post in the OP literally opens with the opposite. 

Here's an IG story that gives a bit more context to what Piggytaiwan was speaking to with the post everyone keeps sharing - they're responding to a pretty inflammatory article written on INTO:

 

But as usual, context is lost and the internet army is willfully misinterpreting what was being said in order to burn another LGBTQ+ person at the stake for daring to have a nuanced take on how our communities are being represented in the media.

[Elusive Chanteuse]

Interesting perspective.  Hopefully she's not booted out off the island because she has an opinion.

 

 

[meangreen11]

44 minutes ago, ChapelHooker said:

Stopped reading here! Have a nice day though x 

You too 

[Communion]

The idea that "Republicans are agreeing with nonbinary people that dysphoria isn't a mental illness" is INSANE. 

 

CONSERVATIVES THINK BEING TRANS IS A MENTAL ILLNESS!!

They literally argue "we don't treat any other mental illnesses by enabling the mentally ill".

 

They're not restricting access to trans healthcare because they rebuke transmedicalism. They are restricting it because they think the cure for the mental illness they see transgenderism is conversion therapy. 

[jqnetto]

1 hour ago, GraceRandolph said:

So what makes a NB person who doesn’t medically transition and presents as their birth sex different from a cis person?

the fact none of them was able to give a proper and direct answer to this basic question

 

-

 

several points were made I fear, if "gender doesn't exist", how can gender dysphoria be a thing? 

[VOSS]

1 hour ago, Cameltoe Chariot said:

Here's an IG story that gives a bit more context to what Piggytaiwan was speaking to with the post everyone keeps sharing - they're responding to a pretty inflammatory article written on INTO:

 

But as usual, context is lost and the internet army is willfully misinterpreting what was being said in order to burn another LGBTQ+ person at the stake for daring to have a nuanced take on how our communities are being represented in the media.

Doesn’t it make sense that nb people would be the face of ‘Them’ magazine? The name makes me think it’s about rejecting the gender binary, which Hunter clearly is not.

[Myah Marie]

Accusing NB for being the reason trans people are losing their rights is just... confusing. Republicans are always gonna find a reason to remove rights for minorities, no matter what (even if all the trans people did medical transitioning).

This whole post is just a bad take tbh

[GraceRandolph]

Of course enbies aren’t responsible for right wingers actions, but I see the point Hunter is making. Conflating gender dysphoria that is serious enough to require medical transition to gender presentation or the use of they/them pronouns is a problem. If a hetero polyamorous person said they had the same struggle that gay people have and creating distinctions was offensive I would be mad, and trans people are understandably upset when NB folk erase any distinction. 

[Communion]

2 hours ago, GraceRandolph said:

So what makes a NB person who doesn’t medically transition and presents as their birth sex different from a cis person?

 

33 minutes ago, jqnetto said:

the fact none of them was able to give a proper and direct answer to this basic question

These posts are uncomfortable, especially since I don't think either of you, especially @GraceRandolph, have negative intentions but there's certainly a misunderstanding of what any of these conversations mean. 

 

People can't conflate being nonbinary and being against transmedicalism.

 

There are binary trans people who don't think they have to medically transition (as loaded and complex as a term that is) to be trans and then there are nonbinary people who do experience dysphoria and believe it can only be alleviated through medical intervention. 

 

Let alone that the issue with transmedicalism is that, what defines "physical transition"?

Most trans people never undergo bottom surgery for example. To conservatives, your genitals are largely the main physical definer of your sex. So are all binary trans people w/o bottom surgery then not trans? 

 

There's a joke about AFAB NB people being over-represented in who is nonbinary but it just feels like these people are such a small portion of the LGBTQ community that claiming anything is a consequence of them is done in bad faith. Anyone with common sense should agree that it's not AFAB femme-presenting non-binary people who are why Republicans are trying to forcibly detransition all transgender people.

 

As well, I'd even say these people are not who lead the debate over transmedicalism. A lot of transmedicalism, as mentioned above, is about where one decides to draw the line and the contradictions that expose themselves when people are expected to start hitting physical criteria to be their gender.

 

Nonbinary AFAB people are a low-hanging fruit but this discourse quickly shifts to things like trans men who aren'y hyper-masculine or trans women who feel fine making jokes about having "girl dick". I just can't really think about transmedicalism without remembering Blaire White spending literal *years* claiming Riley Dennis was faking being trans and constantly mocking her for having overtly masculine features despite Riley undergoing medical transition in private and the "obviously still masculine" features Blaire mocked Riley for having and claimed as evidence she hadn't yet started hormones simply being how Riley still looked.

 

These conversations feel unproductive in the way that trying to essentialize sexuality is. 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Communion