discussion Thousands of South Koreans join growing protests against US military exercises

[Communion]

 

[Pikachoo]

they'll miss them when North Korea attacks

[SmittenCake]

9 minutes ago, Pikachoo said:

they'll miss them when North Korea attacks

North Korea makes one move and its over for them. 

 

[Communion]

18 minutes ago, Pikachoo said:

they'll miss them when North Korea attacks

These protestors are calling for the reunification of North Korea & South Korea into one country, so how would North Korea attack itself if, in their plan, North Korea no longer exists?

[SmittenCake]

3 minutes ago, Communion said:

These protestors are calling for the reunification of North Korea & South Korea into one country, so how would North Korea attack itself if, in their plan, North Korea no longer exists?

Let me guess: you think the South Koreans also want a unification with Kim Jung Un wielding power? 

[Taylena]

Red Velvet >>>> US military

 

Oppa Kimmy Jong-un will protect his dear Irene from evil communist generals telling him to press the nuclear button. 

[Communion]

Just now, SmittenCake said:

Let me guess: you think the South Koreans also want a unification with Kim Jung Un wielding power? 

I'm not sure what you're even trying to say or ask, to be honest.

[SmittenCake]

4 minutes ago, Communion said:

I'm not sure what you're even trying to say or ask, to be honest.

The ideal reunification process among people who share the same dangerous authoritarian ideas like yourself would end in South Korea uniting with the North while having the leaders of NK govern a "unified" Korea. Are you opposed to this idea? 

[Communion]

14 minutes ago, SmittenCake said:

The ideal reunification process 

Again, I honestly have no clue what you're trying to say. You're talking in innuendo. What ideal process?

 

I thought you supported autonomy and self-determination? I personally find it hard to imagine how merging the two economies would go, but the product of Korean unification is not up for anyone to decide by Koreans.

 

But none of that has to do with @Pikachoo's odd suggestion that the only thing preventing North Korea from attacking South Korea was US military presence. The suggestion that countries sharing the same peninsula would wield nuclear weapons against each other isn't logical. Do you... know how nuclear weapons works?  It's logistically impossible for North Korea to launch any kind of attack on South Korea without also wiping itself off the map.

 

And sure, one could go "but of course they would! Cause North Korea is led by a suicidal cult!" But if the intention of North Korea was to wipe itself and South Korea off the map, why not.... just do it already regardless of US presence? No US military system in the south would be able to block a nuclear weapon launched. The US bases are there to corner other countries in the region, not house some defense system of the south from the north. 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Communion

[wastedpotential]

42 minutes ago, Communion said:

But none of that has to do with @Pikachoo's odd suggestion that the only thing preventing North Korea from attacking South Korea was US military presence. The suggestion that countries sharing the same peninsula would wield nuclear weapons against each other isn't logical. Do you... know how nuclear weapons works?  It's logistically impossible for North Korea to launch any kind of attack on South Korea without also wiping itself off the map.

Or... they might just use regular missiles to destroy Seoul that wouldn't create a nuclear radiation hazard 

[Communion]

6 minutes ago, wastedpotential said:

Or... they might just use regular missiles to destroy Seoul that wouldn't create a nuclear radiation hazard 

Non-nuclear warfare would still massively negatively impact North Korea. This also implies that you believe their goal is to destroy South Korea, which again doesn't align with the history of relations between both halves of the peninsula.

 

How do you reconcile this theory that North Korea wants is ultimately by the desire to to destroy South Korea and must be eliminated via America with the millions of South Koreans believing that the peninsula can be reunited one day? Are all those South Koreans wrong?

 

Why would South Korea want to normalize relations with a country that wants to destroy it?

Edited August 20, 2022 by Communion

[Katamari]

1 hour ago, Taylena said:

Red Velvet >>>> US military

 

Oppa Kimmy Jong-un will protect his dear Irene from evil communist generals telling him to press the nuclear button. 

 

[wastedpotential]

19 minutes ago, Communion said:

Non-nuclear warfare would still massively negatively impact North Korea. This also implies that you believe their goal is to destroy South Korea, which again doesn't align with the history of relations between both halves of the peninsula.

 

How do you reconcile this theory that North Korea wants is ultimately by the desire to to destroy South Korea and must be eliminated via America with the millions of South Koreans believing that the peninsula can be reunited one day? Are all those South Koreans wrong?

 

Why would South Korea want to normalize relations with a country that wants to destroy it?

Well, we really have no idea what the North Korean government actually plans to do in regard to unification, but one potential path they may try to take would be the complete destruction of the South Korean government, economy, and society (via whatever means they have), which would allow the North to move in and take control of the land and surviving people. Since it's so extremely economically crippled and has less than half the population of the South, the only reasonable way that the government in Pyongyang could govern the entire peninsula is if it bombed the South back to the Stone Age.

 

Obviously that's only one, very extreme outcome, but it's pretty much the only reason why the Americans are in South Korea at this point.

 

Of course there are millions of South Korean people who think that peaceful reunification is possible, but there are also millions of South Koreans who believe the only path toward reunification is some sort of military conquest, which is why this particular set of people are working with the Americans to help keep the North from hypothetically rolling in. 

 

The North can want to destroy the South and millions of South Koreans can want reunification, those things aren't mutually exclusive. Hell, even the South Koreans who dream of some German-style peaceful reunification can coexist with the fact that if there weren't American men and arms along the border, the North would've invaded decades ago. 

 

And, for what it's worth, the only impact that non-nuclear warfare would have on the North would be the South Korean and American bombs dropped over Pyongyang a few minutes later 

 

EDIT: Also, 'normalisation' is a strong way to put the negotiations between governments, since they went from literally zero communication to a very limited form of interaction. It was a big step to be sure, but they're still a million miles away from an actual normalised relationship

Edited August 20, 2022 by wastedpotential

[Communion]

1 hour ago, wastedpotential said:

Well, we really have no idea what the North Korean government actually plans to do in regard to unification, but one potential path they may try to take would be the complete destruction of the South Korean government, economy, and society (via whatever means they have), which would allow the North to move in and take control of the land and surviving people. Since it's so extremely economically crippled and has less than half the population of the South, the only reasonable way that the government in Pyongyang could govern the entire peninsula is if it bombed the South back to the Stone Age.

 

Obviously that's only one, very extreme outcome, but it's pretty much the only reason why the Americans are in South Korea at this point.

 

Of course there are millions of South Korean people who think that peaceful reunification is possible, but there are also millions of South Koreans who believe the only path toward reunification is some sort of military conquest, which is why this particular set of people are working with the Americans to help keep the North from hypothetically rolling in. 

 

The North can want to destroy the South and millions of South Koreans can want reunification, those things aren't mutually exclusive. Hell, even the South Koreans who dream of some German-style peaceful reunification can coexist with the fact that if there weren't American men and arms along the border, the North would've invaded decades ago. 

 

And, for what it's worth, the only impact that non-nuclear warfare would have on the North would be the South Korean and American bombs dropped over Pyongyang a few minutes later 

 

EDIT: Also, 'normalisation' is a strong way to put the negotiations between governments, since they went from literally zero communication to a very limited form of interaction. It was a big step to be sure, but they're still a million miles away from an actual normalised relationship

My issue with this theory is that it relies on the unfounded assumption that, again, North Korea has an inherent desire to destroy South Korea. It also ignores the history of just what exactly North Korea's position has been.

 

What benefit would there be to attack South Korea who desire to not only normalize relations with the North but also increase aid? To believe the DPRK would destroy ROK would require the belief that the DPRK desires not sovereignty and economic prosperity of its own but the destruction of South Koreans as a people. It relies on 'madman' conspiracies to ensure it's fine to assume officials are illogical actors.

 

The idea of Korean self-determination and autonomy is largely the most pervasive attitude amongst South Koreans and that seems to get lost in place of a kind of fantasy that South Koreans live their daily lives fearing being destroyed by their long lost relatives.

 

Such isn't the attitude of most South Koreans. We see this in polling.

In 2017, nearly 60% (+40% from 90s) said they don't believe there was a risk of North Korea attacking.

 

This poll from 2019 found that, if Japan were to enter war with North Korea, a plurality of 46% of South Koreans would fight alongside North Korea to defend it.

 

These trends are even found by right-leaning thinktanks. This is Carnegie's survey from 2020 that found South Korean attitudes centered self-determination and the paradoxes that causes. 

- 75%+ South Koreans both being suspicious and untrusting of China and the US, but believing the country should both maintain (for the US) and grow (for China) their relationship with both for further economic prosperity.
- 70% of South Koreans think no one should be part of unification (US, Japan, China) besides Koreans.
- 58% felt that attempts by other countries to involve themselves in talks "undermined Korean sovereignty".
- A plurality of 40% found that the most likely form of reunification will end up being peaceful co-existence.
- Nearly equal pluralities desiring the North adopt the South's economic and political system versus allowing the North to maintain itself as-is and finding compromise to co-exist.

 

This mimics the kind of approach of former President Moon had wrt reunification - a kind of "Korea First" style of politics that argues ROK to leverage its unique position over the US, China and Japan to garner the best deals for Korea while slowly navigating what is ultimately a private relationship between itself and the northern half of the peninsula.

 

Even Carnegie's findings show that anti-military sentiment has grown over the years to where 46% of South Koreans now want a future without the US military. This is the highest anti-military sentiment has grown since the US military inserted itself into the peninsula:

 

So when the evidence that North Korea will at any moment attack South Korea (and that the US is only in South Korea for that reason) is the claim that the South Korean people say so... it doesn't seem like they do?

 

In fact, the main hesitation South Koreans, as referenced above, seem to express about North Korea is a possible negative impact on their economy. Economic strain is the main hesitation people have re: reunification, not "political or social fallout" as the study finds. In fact, much of the reasoning, as found in Carnegie's study, for desiring relations with the US is to ensure prosperous trade that would cushion any kind of economic hardships that come from normalizing relations. Not safety or protection. 

 

The claim that South Korea lives in daily fear of North Korea attacking and they need the US there to protect them from destruction.. doesn't line up with historical fact nor what South Koreans seem to feel.

 

It's obvious the US maintains its bases for its own reasons and interests in the region. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Communion

[Bosque]

It’s weird how the the people staging these kinds of “protests” never actually choose to live in North Korea, China or Russia. Wonder why

[Communion]

52 minutes ago, Dephira said:

never actually choose to live in North Korea

They're literally advocating for the right to travel to, live in, and go back and forth between North & South Korea  Outdated laws makes it punishable *on both sides* of the peninsula to travel without either government's permission. Throw in the absurdity that since 2017 even Korean-Americans are barred from using their US passport to travel to North Korea or risk being thrown in jail in America. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Communion

[Harrier]

 

I understand the sentiment of these protesters. They want peace and it's true that military exercises don't get us any closer to that. Hell I might even be at the protest if I were South Korean. It's the way you frame the issue I take issue with.

 

Why do you feel the need to do apologia for authoritarianism? I can't work out if it's just because they're rivals of the United States, that which you hate most, or because they are nominally leftist and therefore you feel obliged to defend them. Perhaps a combination of both.

What good would the withdrawal of the United States military do the region? What solution in the Korean peninsula do you propose beyond waahhh my country is evil and bad contrarianism?

You're right to say North Korea would never use nuclear weapons on a country next door to it, but it has thousands of artillery pieces within range of Seoul as we speak and could wreak absolute havoc on the civilian population in a heartbeat. Despite their development, without foreign intervention, the South would suffer untold humanitarian crises should war break out again.

Like it or not, the presence of the United States has kept that region peaceful for the past 70 years, and has allowed South Korea to find its way to becoming a strong, developed democracy with a thriving culture. Meanwhile, China has largely allowed North Korea to remain an authoritarian nightmare as both Koreas were in their early days, as well as one of the poorest nations in the world.

It's sad to think about how much better the material conditions of North Koreans would be had China not intervened in the Korean war. Just like its sad to think about how much worse South Korea would be had the North won without US intervention. The US did not have honorable intentions in the Korean war - but the results of its actions have not been negative.

 

 

I apologize for the essay. I don't hate you - I just get frustrated with this particular issue.