discussion Jealous Utah parents trans investigation on cis girl who beat daughters in sport fail

[Vermillion]

 

[XAMJ]

this is what republikkkans want, full control of others body and life choices.... the party of freedom and individual rights

[Sesame]

Imagine being a teenage girl just trying to play a sport and suddenly you get accused of being a man by adults because of how you look. I don’t know if I could handle that kind of blow to my self esteem at that age. 

[TheLastChord]

1 minute ago, Sesame said:

Imagine being a teenage girl just trying to play a sport and suddenly you get accused of being a man by adults because of how you look. I don’t know if I could handle that kind of blow to my self esteem at that age. 

I don't even want to know what this "investigation" entails for this girl though... like wtf

[magazine]

hopefully the girl sues them 

[Vermillion]

15 minutes ago, TheLastChord said:

I don't even want to know what this "investigation" entails for this girl though... like wtf

According to some proposed legislation in a few states, genital checks. 

[Vermillion]

@TheLastChord Also...

 

 

[Protocol]

It seems to me that the best solution is to simply let everyone compete against everyone. Why is sports the only field where it's ok to separate men and women?

[brooklyndaddy]

9 minutes ago, Protocol said:

It seems to me that the best solution is to simply let everyone compete against everyone. Why is sports the only field where it's ok to separate men and women?

As much as I wish this was fair, it’s just not. Men would dominate everything. A lot of sports does come down to innate physical characteristics and strength which men disproportionately have an advantage in. This is a an extremely tricky issue. Because everybody should be free to express their gender identity freely with no issue but when there are undeniable biological characteristics at play it is a slippery slope. I’m saying this as a trans person. 
 

Unfortunately I don’t even know a solution. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by brooklyndaddy

[Protocol]

9 minutes ago, brooklyndaddy said:

As much as I wish this was fair, it’s just not. Men would dominate everything. A lot of sports does come down to innate physical characteristics and strength which men disproportionately have an advantage in. This is a an extremely tricky issue. Because everybody should be free to express their gender identity freely with no issue but when there are undeniable biological characteristics at play it is a slippery slope. I’m saying this as a trans person. 
 

Unfortunately I don’t even know a solution. 

Totally understand that but at the same time, people who are really good at sports tend to have a genetic advantage anyway. Like wasn't Michael Phelps born with abnormally huge lungs or something and that's why he needs less breaths and can swim faster? Even if trans women would win, it's like, so what? It seems to come down to "you can't compete because you'll win". That seems so unfair.

[jqnetto]

wtf

 

poor their daughter being a certified whiny loser

[Horizon Flame]

20 minutes ago, Protocol said:

Totally understand that but at the same time, people who are really good at sports tend to have a genetic advantage anyway. Like wasn't Michael Phelps born with abnormally huge lungs or something and that's why he needs less breaths and can swim faster? Even if trans women would win, it's like, so what? It seems to come down to "you can't compete because you'll win". That seems so unfair.

Uh, no. Take a biology class. Not the same thing. Male and female bodies are different. Genetic advantage = sex advantage. Men will always have a biological advantage over women when it comes to physical strength. Men have larger organs (including larger lungs), larger body frames, muscle fiber, faster reflexes, etc. This is science and not debatable. Serena Williams wouldn’t be a household name if we didn’t have male and female sports categories. 
 

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Horizon Flame

[Horizon Flame]

17 minutes ago, brooklyndaddy said:

As much as I wish this was fair, it’s just not. Men would dominate everything. A lot of sports does come down to innate physical characteristics and strength which men disproportionately have an advantage in. This is a an extremely tricky issue. Because everybody should be free to express their gender identity freely with no issue but when there are undeniable biological characteristics at play it is a slippery slope. I’m saying this as a trans person. 
 

Unfortunately I don’t even know a solution. 

Not to mention that many girls get scholarships from these events. 

[Attitude]

It's Utah so I'm not even surprised. 

[TheLastChord]

40 minutes ago, Protocol said:

Totally understand that but at the same time, people who are really good at sports tend to have a genetic advantage anyway. Like wasn't Michael Phelps born with abnormally huge lungs or something and that's why he needs less breaths and can swim faster? Even if trans women would win, it's like, so what? It seems to come down to "you can't compete because you'll win". That seems so unfair.

This is not the right mindset, sports are enterntainment. Nobody would watch Tour De France if the winner beats everyone else by 10 hours. The main idea of competetive sports is exactly that, competition. Even in Male sports you have subdivisions specifically designed to keep it as leveled as possible, like in boxing for example. The post you responded to accurately pointed out that men and women have biological differences, men have a way bigger physical potential than women, that's just the way it is. 

 

Is it possible for some women to have bigger physical strength than some trained males? Yes, very unlikely, but yes, however those trained males inferior to women WOULD NEVER rise to the top of male atheletes in order to compete in any major competition, because all the top male performers are physically way above the top female performers. What you suggest, eliminating gender divisions in sport, would simply mean the destruction of female sports since there isn't one sport where the top male record isn't WAY above the female one, this would inevitably end with biological males winning every sport category imaginable, forever. 

 

The worst argument I hear is when people use foolishly Serena Williams as an example, saying that she'd beat a top male tennis players because she's that good. She wouldn't, not the top 10, not the top 100, not the top 10,000. She was beaten by a retired male tennis player at the peak of her level. Speed, agility, acceleration and strength are all things to be considered and the male body performs better in all. 

[brooklyndaddy]

57 minutes ago, Protocol said:

Totally understand that but at the same time, people who are really good at sports tend to have a genetic advantage anyway. Like wasn't Michael Phelps born with abnormally huge lungs or something and that's why he needs less breaths and can swim faster? Even if trans women would win, it's like, so what? It seems to come down to "you can't compete because you'll win". That seems so unfair.

I think your heart is in the right place but unfortunately sports comes entirely down to physical ability which goes hand in hand with biological sex. Of course there will always be outliers but that’s like 1 in 100,000. That said, yes sports and the concept of winning itself are human inventions revolving around doing the “best” according to a set of rules. That is, the rules, are objective and not opinion based generally. There are times to beat, goals to score, and distances to achieve. These were built and established around the structure that is the two (majority) sexes which will always exist, no matter the gender how one identifies
 

High school and college girls looking to pursue professional careers in their sport depend on making top 100, 10, 3 etc. placements. I can’t help but feel bad for them when somebody with a clear physical advantage takes a spot that was not built for their biological sex. That doesn’t mean the trans woman taking her spot is any less woman, she is just biologically male. And that is fine! There are plenty biologically male women and they deserve everything cis women do. 
 

I wish we could live in a world where sex and gender were truly looked at separately and we could have people of all gender identities competing in sports aligning with their biological sex. We could do away with terms like men’s and women’s sports and just have male and female. Because at the end of the day, it should be accepted by everyone that a woman can be male biologically and a man be a woman biologically. It’s such a nuanced issue but I know you don’t mean harm with what you’re saying  

[LoveInStereo]

This is such a nuanced & complex issue but this kind of invasive & authoritarian approach is not the solution. Sounds like a witch hunt to me

[Thuggin]

4 hours ago, Protocol said:

Totally understand that but at the same time, people who are really good at sports tend to have a genetic advantage anyway. Like wasn't Michael Phelps born with abnormally huge lungs or something and that's why he needs less breaths and can swim faster? Even if trans women would win, it's like, so what? It seems to come down to "you can't compete because you'll win". That seems so unfair.

We're not talking about individuals having genetic advantages over other individuals. That's a given. We're talking about the MASSIVE disparity in physical genetic advantage between males and females and why that justifies separate male and female sports leagues. Someone will eventually beat Michael Phelps's records. But the top female swimmer will never outswim any of the top 1000 or so male swimmers. The same is true for virtually every sport out there. An elite female power lifter's PR bench press would be just okay for a typical healthy man. Without female sports leagues, women wouldn't be able to obtain sports scholarships, gain widespread recognition for their talents, make careers out of their athleticism, and feel accomplished by succeeding in competitive leagues. And young girls wouldn't have those female athletes to look up to. The conversation about trans women's inclusion in women's leagues is definitely complex. I think genital checks of teen athletes based on parents' accusations is ludicrous. But one thing we do know for certain is that trans women who transition after puberty broadly retain genetic advantages over cis women. (Note: that doesn't mean every trans woman will be able to outcompete every cis woman in any given sport.) For instance, yes, HRT brings down testosterone levels, but height, wrist size, frame size, oxygen carrying capacity, bone density, tendon and ligament strength, reaction time, center of mass, muscle mass to body fat ratio...these range from only somewhat impacted by hormones to not at all impacted by hormones. If we were to say it always comes down to genetic advantage so we shouldn't care about those factors, then I don't see why we would care about testosterone levels either. In that case, identification would be the only qualifier for competing in the women's league. But obviously there is an issue with that. Women don't just want to compete with other women simply for the purpose of being around other women. They want to compete with other women to be competitive and also for safety reasons.

[Jotham]

This is so creepy and invasive. And sadly, I think this will only become more common over time.