discussion Poll:EU ATRL-ers: Is Supporting Ukraine Worth It?

[lovedaddy]

I can't believe some people voted for "no"

worms for brain

[Gesamtkunstwerk]

Yes. It's going to cost Western Europeans some of the luxuries we're used to, but 1. it would've probably done so anyway even if we didn't support Ukraine, 2. if you value that over human life, no words.

[karma police]

@ATRL Administration should create a poll:

"Is banning troll AlanRickman1946 Worth It?
A. Yes, I can afford it.
B. No it isn't.
C. Yes, I don't care about this obvious putinbot"

[arceus]

Yes. EU, especially my beloved CoUNTry Germany, is at fault here for being too dependant on Russia and other authoritarian countries.

[ProudLBS]

I just read about the 15% cut and I have to laugh.

 

Not everyone had the luxury of relying on cheap Russian gas. Sleep with an extra blanket or whatever.

[brazil]

I like to think yes, but it's true that EU/US and western foreign relations is full of hypocrisy where some humans rights abuse are overlooked (SA, Israel etc) but others are not. But I think the approach being taken with Russia should be taken with all countries that infringe on humans rights and international law, not the other way around.

[brazil]

I like to think yes, but it's true that EU/US and western foreign relations is full of hypocrisy where some humans rights abuse are overlooked (SA, Israel etc) but others are not. But I think the approach being taken with Russia should be taken with all countries that infringe on humans rights and international law, not the other way around.

[LookinAssHittas]

6 hours ago, ProudLBS said:

Yes, it’s a matter of human rights.

Plus the EU will benefit from Ukraine’s fertile lands, gas fields, and hard-working population.

I find it qwhite interesting how you support the human rights of Ukrainians, but aren’t willing to support the human rights of Palestinians 

 

——

 

I’m not from the EU (I’m from Canada), however, I definitely think supporting Ukraine is worth it. We cannot let Russia win at all. 

 

[The7thStranger]

It's always worth it to support the resistance. But I do question whether these sanctions are not doing more harm to us than to Russia. Russia didn't have a very high pedestal to fall from. We do.

 

Those of us in the middle class will be okay treading water for a while. But the inflation and weakened economy is going to hit lower income families really hard and put their already compromised financial security at risk. It's not quite as black and white as "Russia bad."

Edited July 20, 2022 by The7thStranger

[ontherocks]

8 minutes ago, The7thStranger said:

It's always worth it to support the resistance. But I do question whether these sanctions are not doing more harm to us than to Russia. Russia didn't have a very high pedestal to fall from. We do.

 

Those of us in the middle class will be okay treading water for a while. But the inflation and weakened economy is going to hit lower income families really hard and put their already compromised financial security at risk. It's not quite as black and white as "Russia bad."

It is, cause regardless if NATO country or not, Russia has no issues to continue attacking anybody regardless of the consequences. I don't know how many times this needs to be repeated. 

[The7thStranger]

1 minute ago, ontherocks said:

It is, cause regardless if NATO country or not, Russia has no issues to continue attacking anybody regardless of the consequences. I don't know how many times this needs to be repeated. 

My apologies for showing concern for people who are and will be directly affected by the economic shift caused by the sanctions. How absolutely awful of me.

[ontherocks]

3 minutes ago, swiftophrenic said:

Yes, 100%.

 

The gas prices are at all time here and winter is about to be though but i live in Poland and like less than 150km from border with Ukraine.

If Russia succesfully takes over the Ukraine, there is no way Poland isn't next in line for invasion. 

https://www.index.hr/mobile/clanak.aspx?category=vijesti&id=2381268#brid_cp_Brid_58298617

 

Just scroll down to the video.

[ontherocks]

Just now, The7thStranger said:

My apologies for showing concern for people who are and will be directly affected by the economic shift caused by the sanctions. How absolutely awful of me.

It was, but I am gracious enough to accept your apologies. 

[The7thStranger]

Just now, ontherocks said:

It was, but I am gracious enough to accept your apologies. 

Girl, bye.

 

Two things can be true. You can want to support Ukraine without also wanting to see the economy collapse to the point where people are losing their homes.

[Saddy]

7 hours ago, ontherocks said:

Yes it is. Simple as that. If Russia gets what they want in Ukraine, they will simply continue in other countries.

 

[ontherocks]

4 minutes ago, The7thStranger said:

Girl, bye.

 

Two things can be true. You can want to support Ukraine without also wanting to see the economy collapse to the point where people are losing their homes.

Nobody wants the latter, but this is not just an attack on Ukraine. In Russia's mind and they have stated it, they are at war against NATO, not against Ukraine. So hello, we are already at war even without a single shot fired on NATO ground, yet 

Edited July 20, 2022 by ontherocks

[The7thStranger]

Just now, ontherocks said:

Nobody wants the latter, but this is not just an attack on Ukraine. In Russia's mind and they have stated it, they are at war against NATO, not against Ukraine. So hello, we are already at war even without a single shot fired in NATO ground, yet 

I don't see how anything I said contradicts what you're saying, though. Questioning the sanctions is more than legitimate in a time like this. Where are all those funds from the seized assets going? (Legit question.) The EU is rightfully allowing Ukrainian citizens to live, study, work, and move freely within the borders--but that takes capital. And if the economy continues to sustain such damage (post-COVID-19, post-Brexit, post-Syrian crisis), how is the EU going to be able to effectively keep both its own citizens and the Ukrainian refugees as physically and financially safe as possible?

 

Again, people like me will be fine. But there are a lot of people outside the middle and upper salary brackets who are being negatively impacted by what is happening. What exactly is the next step here? It was an incredible show of solidarity the way all these countries came out against Russia, but I have to wonder what else the EU and other territories can do that will truly do real damage to Russia, a country that has proven time and time again that it does not care about the well-being of its citizens or residents.

 

So yes, while I do think it's worth it to support Ukraine and to work against Russia's war crimes, I have to ask what the game plan is here. Because given how things are going, I'm very skeptical that what the EU has done so far is continuing to have the effect that we all want to believe it is.

[ontherocks]

1 minute ago, The7thStranger said:

I don't see how anything I said contradicts what you're saying, though. Questioning the sanctions is more than legitimate in a time like this. Where are all those funds from the seized assets going? (Legit question.) The EU is rightfully allowing Ukrainian citizens to live, study, work, and move freely within the borders--but that takes capital. And if the economy continues to sustain such damage (post-COVID-19, post-Brexit, post-Syrian crisis), how is the EU going to be able to effectively keep both its own citizens and the Ukrainian refugees as physically and financially safe as possible?

 

Again, people like me will be fine. But there are a lot of people outside the middle and upper salary brackets who are being negatively impacted by what is happening. What exactly is the next step here? It was an incredible show of solidarity the way all these countries came out against Russia, but I have to wonder what else the EU and other territories can do that will truly do real damage to Russia, a country that has proven time and time again that it does not care about the well-being of its citizens or residents.

 

So yes, while I do think it's worth it to support Ukraine and to work against Russia's war crimes, I have to ask what the game plan is here. Because given how things are going, I'm very skeptical that what the EU has done so far is continuing to have the effect that we all want to believe it is.

The sanctions are working and they do hit Russia. People are losing their jobs, get paid less etc, but my empathy for Russian citizens is on the lowest imaginable spectrum. 

 

It's not like the EU had another choice. The sanctions needed to happen to drain Russia, but also to make it very clear that this is not something we can tolerate, otherwise it will hit Poland, the Baltic countries or Finland next alongside with other major eruptions in Europe outside of the EU. 

 

Unfortunately the EU is still not doing enough, especially when it comes to deliver what Ukraine needs the most: arms.

 

[ontherocks]

6 minutes ago, swiftophrenic said:

yeah i saw this, they won't stop after the ukraine and i doubt NATO will be any helpful

 

dull future huh

In case Russia attacks Poland or any other NATO country, they will. Plus, the polish army is in a way better condition than the Ukranian Army was, so it would be an incredibly dumb idea. On a sidenote: Kadirov also talks a lot of trash all day long 

[ProudLBS]

1 hour ago, LookinAssHittas said:

I find it qwhite interesting how you support the human rights of Ukrainians, but aren’t willing to support the human rights of Palestinians 

I do support their human rights and their right to a state of their own, but the bullshit is just too obvious I fear  

Edited July 20, 2022 by ProudLBS

[Mr.Link]

Imagine depending on one of the countries with the strongest opposition to Western Europe. They should have reduced Russian exports years ago.

 

US teas buying everything from China, the second China declares war on Taiwan inflation will skyrocket to deadly levels. 

[AlanRickman1946]

 

 

[John Slayne]

On 7/20/2022 at 4:38 PM, Thickorita said:

No, not in the current way the EU is doing it. How is strengthening cooperation with Israel, Azerbaijan and Saudi Arabia any different than Russia?

 

On 7/20/2022 at 4:58 PM, Gorgeous said:

mte, they wanted to have a quick performative stand expected to last a couple of months thinking it would get better but now we're biting the dust. I feel sorry for my fellow Ukrainians, but many other countries that the EU has tight bond with have been committing other human rights atrocities (China, Israel, SA, Qatar, etc.) 

I get what you are saying but the solution is not stopping supporting Ukraine  the right thing to do is to oppose all authoritarian regimes

[AlanRickman1946]

 

[Bosque]

Yea it is and honestly many users here (often American) who have the opposite opinion often have extremely cringeworthy and uninformed takes